Progressive Liberals[W:39]

[Kobie]

There are two types of Progressive Liberals:

1. Socialists attempting to lie about what they are.

2. Useful Idiots who join up because they think it’s cool or they like a social issue (abortion, gay rights). But they don’t realize they are giving support to the most destructive political/economic ideology the world has ever seen.

A close examination of the governing platforms of both Socialism and Communism shows the absolute only difference between the two is Socialist try to claim they can function without a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

The problem with that is Socialism is so antithetical to human nature that people have to be forced to do it. This can only happen with an all powerful centralized government controlling everything AKA a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

Oh, this should be a fun thread.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

It certainly did get the point across, and I missed the (tic) part.

But then again, I'm not the sharpest tool in the bag. Cheers!

Eh, it's OK. People who've been here a while know that I use that tactic to both point out the absurdity, ignorance, and hypocrisy of a position. You probably haven't been here long enough to see me do this.

 

[fmw]

Re: Progressive Liberals

True. He lies about, what it means. Or do you think he is stupid enough not to know?

I don't think he lies. I think he simply has no experience at anything dealing with business and economics. He understands what would be nice. He doesn't understand what is practical.

Same with the left in general. Free college, for instance, would be a nice thing but it isn't something the government or the society should do. Government can give things away and it will help some people for a period of time. In the long run it does more harm than good. That is what Sanders doesn't understand. Or perhaps he just doesn't care.

 

[joG]

Re: Progressive Liberals

I don't think he lies. I think he simply has no experience at anything dealing with business and economics. He understands what would be nice. He doesn't understand what is practical.

Same with the left in general. Free college, for instance, would be a nice thing but it isn't something the government or the society should do. Government can give things away and it will help some people for a period of time. In the long run it does more harm than good. That is what Sanders doesn't understand. Or perhaps he just doesn't care.

It is perfectly possible, that it is his ignorance and false assumptions that gets in his way.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Progressive Liberals

I don't think he lies. I think he simply has no experience at anything dealing with business and economics. He understands what would be nice. He doesn't understand what is practical.

Same with the left in general. Free college, for instance, would be a nice thing but it isn't something the government or the society should do. Government can give things away and it will help some people for a period of time. In the long run it does more harm than good. That is what Sanders doesn't understand. Or perhaps he just doesn't care.

That's stupid. Government provides K-12 education. Why is college a bad idea ?

Do you think Germany is suffering from their "free" (it's not free and Sanders knows it's not- i wish republicans could figure this out) college ?

 

[fmw]

Re: Progressive Liberals

That's stupid. Government provides K-12 education. Why is college a bad idea ?

For the same reason that government providing K-12 education is a bad idea. K-12 education is not provided by the federal government nor is it paid by federal government (for the most part.) Add up the cost of all the college educations in the country and tell me how you would deal with the trillions of dollars required.

Do you think Germany is suffering from their "free" (it's not free and Sanders knows it's not- i wish republicans could figure this out) college ?

I'll leave Germany to the Germans. I normally don't respond to people who insult me but there you have it.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

:lamo

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, that is not an argument, brother. 32k plus posts and that is the best you can come up with? I guess the old saying about practice, practice makes perfect has been decisively disproved right here today.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Progressive Liberals

For the same reason that government providing K-12 education is a bad idea. K-12 education is not provided by the federal government nor is it paid by federal government (for the most part.) Add up the cost of all the college educations in the country and tell me how you would deal with the trillions of dollars required.



I'll leave Germany to the Germans. I normally don't respond to people who insult me but there you have it.

The federal government secures the guarantee of public education which is a non-excludable public good.

We already pay for all the college educations in this country. This would just change who is paying. This would make it so that college admittance is based on academic merit- right now, it's heavily based on inherited wealth. Inheriting wealth gives all sorts of advantages already, adding a college education to the list further stratifies our poor away from the most productive sectors of our economy.

Germany pays for American students college education. Why ? Why because the educational costs of educating the public clearly pay for themselves.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

Part you say about the cause is true except you left out that the FED lowering interest rates and ignoring the danger signs is what caused it all.

Similar to the 2008 Housing Market Crash: Although there were many bad actors within the Private Banking Community it was government programs from Liberal Democrats that created the conditions for that catastrophe.

Yes, in addition to that the Fed kept getting it exactly wrong in that when the run on the banks occurred they, the lenders of last resort, tightened down and did not lend and banks crashed all over the US, over 10,000, as no bank has on hand all the money depositors have deposited.

Add even more to that with FDR and administration borrowing money to carry out its social programs, now money being in short supply as nobody was putting money in banks anymore, and so the government was crowding out borrowing by the private firms.

What had always happened before in booms and busts, we called them panics then, was the bottom of the market was allowed and was found and then in a few years we were rising back up again. Not so with FDR and the GREAT Depression.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

Anyone that believe the Nazis were a bunch of Liberals should not even try describing the evils of "Liberals". What a waste of site bit space.

What is it most folks have here about not wanting to debate. Why waste everyone's time with a post like that? Give some facts or find some place else to give facts.

Yes, this post of mine might similarly be a waste of time, but I am trying to do this as a public service announcement that this is supposed to be a debate site, not a shrug your shoulders, roll your eyes and say, pfffffttt in place of an actual argument.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

wow...is this what happens when all your information comes from WND and radio shows like Rush and Sean?

Ditto above.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

Capitalism needs that threat of force as well, though. Without a strong government or security force protecting the rich minority what would stop the workers from taking over the means of production? Without the threat of government force unions would kick the owners to the curb.

So what I seem to be hearing you say is that capitalism actually needs force to protect it from the unions kicking owners to the curb.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

Thank you for not associating with the liberal movement.

Keep up the good work.

Would you rate this as one of your superlative arguments? Or is it your just ordinary everyday argument?

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Progressive Liberals

Would you rate this as one of your superlative arguments? Or is it your just ordinary everyday argument?

I have no opinion.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

Re: Progressive Liberals

So what I seem to be hearing you say is that capitalism actually needs force to protect it from the unions kicking owners to the curb.

Yes. Without the credible threat of force the means of productions would be fully controlled by the workers. It wouldn't be long before the workers realized, "Hey, WE are the ones who know how to operate and maintain this equipment. WE are the ones who operate distribution. Why should we tolerate the shareholders, who have never even stepped foot in this factory, take a piece of the pie?"

And I really think it has to be government force. Privately hired security could betray the owners for just as easily without the threat of a government holding them accountable. There is no capitalism without government.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

Yes. Without the credible threat of force the means of productions would be fully controlled by the workers. It wouldn't be long before the workers realized, "Hey, WE are the ones who know how to operate and maintain this equipment. WE are the ones who operate distribution. Why should we tolerate the shareholders, who have never even stepped foot in this factory, take a piece of the pie?"

And I really think it has to be government force. Privately hired security could betray the owners for just as easily without the threat of a government holding them accountable. There is no capitalism without government.

If that were actually true, and some of it obviously is as I have been a worker myself and know... but if the ones who know how things work wanted to compete, all they have to do is pool their money, there are way more of "them", and skills, quit working for "the man" and form a cooperative and compete with the business owners.

What you then do is delay gratification, as your paycheck may not always be there with the ups and downs of the economy. Those stresses would then be off the owners and placed on the shoulders of each and every worker. Can't just go home at the end of the day and stop worrying as that worry has now become a part of your job. You, each member of the operation, is taking a risk, you could easily fail and not only no paychecks, but possibly be heavily in debt if your cooperative borrowed money [since it does not have shareholders and it costs money, sometimes lots of money to start an operation]. And how would you structure who gets to make all the decisions? By committee? And would everyone be compensated exactly the same since you are going for equality?

And if all are willing, why don't we see these skilled hordes of workers abiding by the Nike phrase, Just Do It!

 

[fmw]

Re: Progressive Liberals

The federal government secures the guarantee of public education which is a non-excludable public good.

We already pay for all the college educations in this country. This would just change who is paying. This would make it so that college admittance is based on academic merit- right now, it's heavily based on inherited wealth. Inheriting wealth gives all sorts of advantages already, adding a college education to the list further stratifies our poor away from the most productive sectors of our economy.

Germany pays for American students college education. Why ? Why because the educational costs of educating the public clearly pay for themselves.

You have faith in the federal government's ability to manage things that I simply don't have.

 

[Casper]

Re: Progressive Liberals

What is it most folks have here about not wanting to debate. Why waste everyone's time with a post like that? Give some facts or find some place else to give facts.

Yes, this post of mine might similarly be a waste of time, but I am trying to do this as a public service announcement that this is supposed to be a debate site, not a shrug your shoulders, roll your eyes and say, pfffffttt in place of an actual argument.

I did not make the claim hence I do not have to defend it, now you know how actual debates work, my pleasure.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Progressive Liberals

You have faith in the federal government's ability to manage things that I simply don't have.

The federal government is the result of the collaboration of Americans. How very unpatriotic to have so little faith in us...

 

[Casca XV]

Re: Progressive Liberals

At the time of Karl Marx, there were fewer than two billion people on earth. Besides, your desire to indict socialism, and not authoritarianism by any name, is very typical of someone who has ignored more than they've learned. How do you type so legibly with your ass?

But over the last 100 years the Marx ideology has killed over a billion, more than any religion or other ideology. Constantly changing ideologies name (progressive, socialist, liberal, communist) doesn't change what it is.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

Re: Progressive Liberals

I did not make the claim hence I do not have to defend it, now you know how actual debates work, my pleasure.

In other words, to hell with debate, lets just say stupid stuff and call it debate.

I knew it was going to be a waste of my time, now you have proven it.

 

[Casper]

Re: Progressive Liberals

In other words, to hell with debate, lets just say stupid stuff and call it debate.

I knew it was going to be a waste of my time, now you have proven it.

So you do not know that the one that makes a claim is the one obligated to back up the claim with facts. You do not really grasp the rules of debate so, yes it is a waste of time attempting one with you.
Good Day

 

[poweRob]

There are two types of Progressive Liberals:

1. Socialists attempting to lie about what they are.

2. Useful Idiots who join up because they think it’s cool or they like a social issue (abortion, gay rights). But they don’t realize they are giving support to the most destructive political/economic ideology the world has ever seen.

A close examination of the governing platforms of both Socialism and Communism shows the absolute only difference between the two is Socialist try to claim they can function without a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

The problem with that is Socialism is so antithetical to human nature that people have to be forced to do it. This can only happen with an all powerful centralized government controlling everything AKA a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

Love you too.

 

[Absentglare]

Re: Progressive Liberals

But over the last 100 years the Marx ideology has killed over a billion, more than any religion or other ideology. Constantly changing ideologies name (progressive, socialist, liberal, communist) doesn't change what it is.

Completely false, if guns don't kill people, then ideologies certainly don't kill people.

 

[poweRob]

Re: Progressive Liberals

This thread makes logical panda sad....