Progressive champion demolishes anti-Medicare-For-All arguments

[Dans La Lune]

Medicare-For-All:

- Saves money on administrative costs.
- Gives patients the most choices.
- Lets doctors practice medicine
- Better healthcare outcomes

I would also add:

- Covers everyone, saving tens of thousands of lives a year
- Prevents one of the leading causes of bankruptcy
- Unburdens employers
- Frees worker employment being tied to healthcare benefits.
- Wages no longer included as healthcare benefits.

 

[aociswundumho]

As usual, progressives refuse to address the real problem, which is the price of healthcare in the US.

- Covers everyone, saving tens of thousands of lives a year

The US spends 12k per person per year on healthcare. There are 330 million Americans. 330 million x 12,000 is 4 trillion dollars per year. The federal government collects 3.5 trillion in total taxes every year.
Even Bernie agrees:

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I., Vt.) said on Tuesday that he estimates his Medicare for All plan would cost up to $40 trillion over 10 years.

"Somewhere between $30 and $40 trillion over a 10 year period," Sanders said, contrasting his plan with former vice president Joe Biden

Sanders: Medicare for All Will Cost $40 Trillion Over 10 Years

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I., Vt.) said on Tuesday that he estimates his Medicare for All plan would cost up to $40 trillion over 10 years.

freebeacon.com

Not a single word in that video about which taxes will be drastically raised to pay for this inevitable failure.

- Frees worker employment being tied to healthcare benefits.
- Wages no longer included as healthcare benefits.

That shit started when progressive hero and all around idiot FDR put a cap on wages. It's always the same old story. Government intervention screws something up, and in response the left wants more government intervention.

 

[Deuce]

As usual, progressives refuse to address the real problem, which is the price of healthcare in the US.



The US spends 12k per person per year on healthcare. There are 330 million Americans. 330 million x 12,000 is 4 trillion dollars per year. The federal government collects 3.5 trillion in total taxes every year.
Even Bernie agrees:



Not a single word in that video about which taxes will be drastically raised to pay for this inevitable failure.



That shit started when progressive hero and all around idiot FDR put a cap on wages. It's always the same old story. Government intervention screws something up, and in response the left wants more government intervention.

"How do we pay for it" asks someone already paying for the most expensive healthcare system on the planet

 

[aociswundumho]

"How do we pay for it" asks someone already paying for the most expensive healthcare system on the planet

I didn't ask "How do we pay for it", I asked which taxes will be drastically raised to pay for it.

"How do we pay for it" asks someone already paying for the most expensive healthcare system on the planet

Didn't you ever wonder why it's so expensive?

 

[The Old Soul]

Medicare For All will never work:
1) It will create a Dr. shortage because all the physicians will move to one of the many countries that have 'for profit' capitalistic healthcare.
2) It will create additional Dr. shortages because all the physicians will quit when reimbursement instantly is reduced to slave pay.
3) Taxes will go sky-high and no one will realize any part of the $12,000 per-capita it now costs to insure each individual.
4) It will create a new poverty class when the millions of people in healthcare insurance related industries are put out of work.
5) It is a leftist / democrat plot to take over the country and turn it communist.

 

[Greenbeard]

The US spends 12k per person per year on healthcare.

Now reprice the current commercial component of that using Medicare prices.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

As usual, progressives refuse to address the real problem, which is the price of healthcare in the US.



The US spends 12k per person per year on healthcare. There are 330 million Americans. 330 million x 12,000 is 4 trillion dollars per year. The federal government collects 3.5 trillion in total taxes every year.
Even Bernie agrees:



Not a single word in that video about which taxes will be drastically raised to pay for this inevitable failure.



That shit started when progressive hero and all around idiot FDR put a cap on wages. It's always the same old story. Government intervention screws something up, and in response the left wants more government intervention.

How does every other civilized country in the world do it?

 

[Gateman_Wen]

Now reprice the current commercial component of that using Medicare prices.

Not to mention the huge drop in administrative costs and the lack of a for profit insurance scheme.

 

[aociswundumho]

Now reprice the current commercial component of that using Medicare prices.

That is not politically possible, as you already know.

 

[Greenbeard]

That is not politically possible, as you already know.

I never said 'Medicare-for-all' is politically possible. I was pointing out that it doesn't "refuse to address" prices. Which means evaluating it in terms of current prices that would change under it doesn't work.

 

[Deuce]

I didn't ask "How do we pay for it", I asked which taxes will be drastically raised to pay for it.



Didn't you ever wonder why it's so expensive?

Didn't you ever wonder why it's less expensive in literally every other country on earth?

 

[Greenbeard]

Not to mention the huge drop in administrative costs and the lack of a for profit insurance scheme.

It would certainly be administratively simpler than the status quo, but luckily there are also options available to us within our multi-payer system to get comparable savings. We just need to take action.

On administrative savings in health care, it's not single-payer or bust!

Lots of time, energy, and expense gets wrapped up in the contractual relationships between insurers and health care providers--that is, the negotiation and implementation of all those terms that determine payment and care delivery for health care services. That's a significant piece of the...

debatepolitics.com

 

[vegas giants]

How does every other civilized country in the world do it?

Clearly magic is involved

 

[bave]

2) It will create additional Dr. shortages because all the physicians will quit when reimbursement instantly is reduced to slave pay.

Try finding a decent doctor who is willing to take new medicare patients as is. They don't exist. None of my medical businesses accept any medicare, medicaid, or tricare patients. The physicians that do accept medicare severely limit the number and push them to the back of the line for appointment slots and availability and they are generally the first ones to get their appointments cancelled.

Now reprice the current commercial component of that using Medicare prices.

Government payors already cover the vast majority of people in the nation. Medicare pays, generally, more than medicaid, both pay dramatically less than privately insured. So sure, you would chop down your 30% of people who pay on higher commercial rates. The problem is that the overall system currently loses money treating medicare patients. You want to convert everyone to a payment system that loses money on each encounter? How's that gonna work?

 

[vegas giants]

Try finding a decent doctor who is willing to take new medicare patients as is. They don't exist. None of my medical businesses accept any medicare, medicaid, or tricare patients. The physicians that do accept medicare severely limit the number and push them to the back of the line for appointment slots and availability and they are generally the first ones to get their appointments cancelled.



Government payors already cover the vast majority of people in the nation. Medicare pays, generally, more than medicaid, both pay dramatically less than privately insured. So sure, you would chop down your 30% of people who pay on higher commercial rates. The problem is that the overall system currently loses money treating medicare patients. You want to convert everyone to a payment system that loses money on each encounter? How's that gonna work?

My mother finds excellent doctors that take medicate all the time. Just found a specialist in one day last month

 

[Helix]

The Democrats failed to pass voting rights, so it will probably be decades before single payer has a chance to pass. I wouldn't be surprised if Republicans take enormous steps backwards in the meantime.

 

[bave]

My mother finds excellent doctors that take medicate all the time. Just found a specialist in one day last month

How do you know this is a good physician? How quickly did she get an appointment? What type of medicare does she have? There are a lot of variables at play. However the overall reported data suggests this is not the case.

 

[vegas giants]

How do you know this is a good physician? How quickly did she get an appointment? What type of medicare does she have? There are a lot of variables at play. However the overall reported data suggests this is not the case.

He was excellent. We got a appointment the next day


This experience is common for her

 

[bave]

He was excellent. We got a appointment the next day

This experience is common for her

Lol. Give me a break.

An excellent physician who has open appointment slots the following day for medicare patients? Let alone a common experience? Nope, not happening.

 

[Greenbeard]

Try finding a decent doctor who is willing to take new medicare patients as is. They don't exist.

Hyperbole rarely helps an argument. Per MedPAC, the majority of Medicare beneficiaries looking for a new primary care provider in 2021 reported no problem finding one. So yes, they exist.

None of my medical businesses accept any medicare, medicaid, or tricare patients.

I never would've guessed.

Government payors already cover the vast majority of people in the nation.

Employer-sponsored coverage: ~50% of Americans
Non-group commercial plans: ~6% of Americans
Medicaid: ~20% of Americans
Medicare: ~ 14% of Americans
Military: ~1% of Americans
Uninsured: ~9% of Americans

 

[vegas giants]

Lol. Give me a break.

An excellent physician who has open appointment slots the following day for medicare patients? Let alone a common experience? Nope, not happening.

He was a ENT specialist.


You are flat out wrong

 

[The Old Soul]

Try finding a decent doctor who is willing to take new medicare patients as is. They don't exist. None of my medical businesses accept any medicare, medicaid, or tricare patients. The physicians that do accept medicare severely limit the number and push them to the back of the line for appointment slots and availability and they are generally the first ones to get their appointments cancelled.



Government payors already cover the vast majority of people in the nation. Medicare pays, generally, more than medicaid, both pay dramatically less than privately insured. So sure, you would chop down your 30% of people who pay on higher commercial rates. The problem is that the overall system currently loses money treating medicare patients. You want to convert everyone to a payment system that loses money on each encounter? How's that gonna work?

There is some (much) sarcasm at play in my comments. I've been hearing the Medicare Rates argument for years, and have wondered why by default, saying Medicare For All equates to the same rates currently in effect. There is a balancing effect between Medicare rates and Private Insurance rates that places MDs (and all of healthcare) compensation somewhere in between cumulatively.

As a department head (retired) with much experience coding and billing, there has always been a vast divide between Medicare and non-Medicare rates, with a realistic rate somewhere in the middle; why can't a Single Payer / Medicare For All compensation scale fall somewhere between? Medicare rates are definitely a pitfall argument, but possibly having the entire world's different approaches, rules, and payouts to model our system around, we might actually come up with something viable to all, by engineering out the massive For Profit component and all the required overhead and designed-in loopholes to exploit.

 

[bave]

why can't a Single Payer / Medicare For All compensation scale fall somewhere between?

Simple answer, they are broke right now with loss dictated pricing terms. Raising reimbursement just makes the problem worse. If you ask why this sort of thing works around the world I would say a few reasons. First, the US has the most unhealthy population in the world. Second, we have the highest expectations in the world in terms of treatments and interventions.

Want to start driving down state costs for care? Do what all the other nations do. Ration and limit care. Go to a single payer state and let me know how many 90 year olds are getting new hips, cardiac interventions etc.

 

[bave]

He was a ENT specialist.

You are flat out wrong

Heh, funny you picked ENT. A very good friend of mine is/was an ENT that was a major regional ENT practice which was just recently bought up by a private equity firm that is rolling up the largest ENT regional players nationwide. Prior to the buyout they devoted 6-8% of their time slots to medicare patients, mostly related to the derm-side of the business. All the surgical head/neck cases that were medicare, got sent to the university because of the time/money value just not being worth it. They no longer do *any* medicare follow ups, that is all now done by APPs. All medicare initial visits are APPs. The only time a medicare patient now sees an actual ENT is for a worked up surgical appointment, that's it. After the buyout it just got worse according to him. They owned huge numbers of private ASCs all over the place and they have entirely dropped out of medicare coverage at any of them.

 

[vegas giants]

Simple answer, they are broke right now with loss dictated pricing terms. Raising reimbursement just makes the problem worse. If you ask why this sort of thing works around the world I would say a few reasons. First, the US has the most unhealthy population in the world. Second, we have the highest expectations in the world in terms of treatments and interventions.

Want to start driving down state costs for care? Do what all the other nations do. Ration and limit care. Go to a single payer state and let me know how many 90 year olds are getting new hips, cardiac interventions etc.

We ration and limit care now


It's called a HMO