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Professor awarded damages after being sanctioned for not using the "correct" pronouns. Bravo!!! (1 Viewer)

Shrink726

The tolerant left? I'm the intolerant left.
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This "woke" PC bullshit has gone plenty far enough.

Good for this professor for not caving in to the PC gestapo.


Bonus for it being a philosophy professor. This would have been a great discussion for the class. Is a person a Madame just because they say so? Do people have some privledge, professionally or socially to be called whatever noun they want. Obviously the professor is limited in his speech. He cant call the student something offensive. What if he didnt know the woman was a man and called him Madame. Would he be violating his religion?

I call it woke to sue over this, and for the school to punish over it. Just ignore the Sir and move on. But its not woke to discuss the issue or desire to be treated in a certain way.
 
Whenever a person asks us to use a particular pronoun, what is the harm in agreeing to his/her/their request?

The overwhelming majority of humans are comfortable with the traditional pronouns, but if a person who looks like a man wishes to be addressed as "she" and "her," go ahead and make her day.

Life is so short and sad. Be kind to someone who may be in great mental stress and confusion about her gender identification.

For years, Americans and Europeans were so cruel to gay men. (Germany's law even outlawed a man looking at another man in a "certain" way!). (Africans and Middle Easterners still persecute gay people.)

Let's not repeat this cruelty with transgender people. Call them what they prefer.
 
This "woke" PC bullshit has gone plenty far enough.

Good for this professor for not caving in to the PC gestapo.

The professor is a sanctimonious pos. What is the injury caused him by having to call a person as they would like to be called?
 
Correct outcome against compelled speech, but with the wrong reasoning:

The professor argued that obliging the student’s requests would violate his own convictions as a Christian.
Meriwether then sued the university, arguing that it violated his “right to free exercise of religion under the First Amendment.”


Male/female and he/she have nothing to do with religion. This case sets a dangerous precedent by which the difference between male and female is determined by religion.
 
Whenever a person asks us to use a particular pronoun, what is the harm in agreeing to his/her/their request?
Because it is insanity to call a thing that which it is not. Language and definitions matter.

The overwhelming majority of humans are comfortable with the traditional pronouns, but if a person who looks like a man wishes to be addressed as "she" and "her," go ahead and make her day.
No.


Life is so short and sad. Be kind to someone who may be in great mental stress and confusion about her gender identification.
I do not believe it is kind to participate in a lie just to make another person feel better.

For years, Americans and Europeans were so cruel to gay men. (Germany's law even outlawed a man looking at another man in a "certain" way!). (Africans and Middle Easterners still persecute gay people.)
Nobody is defending abusing homosexuals, and we all defend their civil rights. However, they in turn cannot demand everyone else to believe that their choice is simply a natural one. And that is somewhat what this transvestite man was demanding of this college professor.

Let's not repeat this cruelty with transgender people. Call them what they prefer.
The professor was fine with calling this person by their personal name, why didn't the transvestite accept that offer I wonder, unless he was bent on forcing a point of view on others?
 
Whenever a person asks us to use a particular pronoun, what is the harm in agreeing to his/her/their request?

The overwhelming majority of humans are comfortable with the traditional pronouns, but if a person who looks like a man wishes to be addressed as "she" and "her," go ahead and make her day.

Life is so short and sad. Be kind to someone who may be in great mental stress and confusion about her gender identification.

For years, Americans and Europeans were so cruel to gay men. (Germany's law even outlawed a man looking at another man in a "certain" way!). (Africans and Middle Easterners still persecute gay people.)

Let's not repeat this cruelty with transgender people. Call them what they prefer.

I agree with most of your reasoning but not with your conclusion.

Of course, it's courtesy to address someone in the way they prefer to be addressed.

What's not acceptable is for the university (or a government) to force someone to speak in a way that goes against their conscience. That's called compelled speech.
 
Is a person a Madame just because they say so? Do people have some privledge, professionally or socially to be called whatever noun they want.

Your ignorant argument is based on not understanding how human gender identity works; it's the same problem as ignorant people who don't understand how sexual orientation works, and think a gay person is just like them except they're acting like a jerk wanting to partner with the same sex for no good reason, which is disgusting, wrong, and should be punishable by jail if not execution.

Yesterday, I listened a a transgender woman telling her sad story.

She's a scientist. Ten years ago, she decided to 'live who she is' as a woman. She said that while SHE knew she was a woman "inside", she found it impossible for anyone around her to see anything but 'a man in a dress'.

She said that as a scientist her credibility is essential, but when she would talk to her fellow scientists, she was met with smirks and chuckles and contempt. It's an experience not new to people because so many do not understand how sexual identity works, just as so many did not understand sexual orientation. We could go on - to things like ignorance about religions like Jews causing hatred and lies for them. Or Muslims.
 
Read and learn.

This is structural biologist Karissa Sanbonmatsu. She works at Los Alamos National Laboratory...

SANBONMATSU: I knew I was a woman on the inside and I wore women's clothes on the outside. But everyone saw me as a man in a dress. I felt like no matter how many things I try, no one would ever really see me as a woman. In science, your credibility is everything. And people were snickering in the hallways, giving me stares, looks of disgust, afraid to be near me. I remember my first big talk after transition. It was in Italy. I'd given prestigious talks before, but this one - I was terrified. I looked out into the audience and the whispers started, the stares, the smirks, the chuckles...

But I felt, enough is enough. I'm a scientist. I have a doctorate in astrophysics. I've published in the top journals in wave-particle interaction, space physics, nucleic acid biochemistry. I've actually been trained to get to the bottom of things. So...

From there, I started delving into, you know, why am I transgender and so forth. And I think that if we can show people that it's something legitimate, then maybe people will take this a lot more seriously.

ZOMORODI: And so if I understand correctly, that is when you actually decided to research this as your career and you started to delve into what happens to our DNA, right? Like, epigenetics - that that could be the thing that makes us male or female or maybe cisgender or transgender.

SANBONMATSU: Yeah. And it turned out to be this really exciting field that was kind of exploding just as we were working on it. And it was right at the time I was going through the transition as well. And so basically in epigenetics, it's interesting in that, you know, a lot of things people wonder, is it nature or is it nurture? Were you born this way or is it a choice? And epigenetics is this new field that sort of sits in between where basically the environment reprograms genes, and those switches stay permanently. So it sort of sits right in between nature and nurture...

SANBONMATSU: To truly understand DNA decision-making, we need to see the process in atomic detail. Well, even the most powerful microscopes can't see this. What if we tried to simulate these on a computer? We'd need a million computers to do that. That's exactly what we have at Los Alamos Labs - a million computers connected in a giant warehouse. So here we're showing the DNA making up an entire gene folded into very specific shapes of knots. For the first time, my team has simulated an entire gene of DNA - the largest biomolecular simulation performed to date. For the first time, we're beginning to understand the unsolved problem of how hormones trigger the formation of these knots.

ZOMORODI: OK. So I want to make sure I understand this right. You are showing how the DNA folds and makes these knots, and those folds and knots are deciding the path of the DNA - like, basically showing epigenetics in real time.

SANBONMATSU: Yeah, that's right.

ZOMORODI: And again, like, this is just one piece. Like, you are one scientist among many scientists trying to connect the dots in this super vast and complicated field of biological sex and then how that connects to gender, and you're each just trying to figure out one step, right?

SANBONMATSU: Yeah. So we're down at the atomistic molecular cellular level. Everyone needs to work on this because it's so complex. And going from a piece of DNA to the brain to behavior to the concept of gender - I mean, it's miles and miles in between each of those steps, you know? So it's a long - it's a long way to go to understand any of this, but it means that, for us scientists, there's lots of work to do though.

ZOMORODI: Right, like, hundreds of steps.

SANBONMATSU: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, at least. So there's - I'd say that the definition of sex is really evolving. And what we're focusing on really is basically what's inside your brain. How is your brain structured? And so we're trying to understand how do these brain structures develop basically, but it's not well understood. So I would say, you can't even really define what gender and sex are right now, so it's really hard to even define what the relationship between the two are.

 
Of course, it's courtesy to address someone in the way they prefer to be addressed.

What's not acceptable is for the university (or a government) to force someone to speak in a way that goes against their conscience. That's called compelled speech.

I don't think that's well thought out. "Courtesy" is a thing but not the issue - just as 'lifestyle choice' is a thing and was used as a political convenience for a while to address homosexual people, but wasn't really the issue.

The issue was how people didn't understand the concept of sexual orientation, just as they don't understand the concept of gender identity - and so 'lifestyle choice' and 'courtesy' are used as band-aids. When these things are understood, state employees in power using correct language about people is an issue whether it's gender, or race, or religion - it's more than just 'courtesy' at stake. But people need to understand transgender for that to make sense.
 
Whenever a person asks us to use a particular pronoun, what is the harm in agreeing to his/her/their request?

The overwhelming majority of humans are comfortable with the traditional pronouns, but if a person who looks like a man wishes to be addressed as "she" and "her," go ahead and make her day.

Life is so short and sad. Be kind to someone who may be in great mental stress and confusion about her gender identification.

For years, Americans and Europeans were so cruel to gay men. (Germany's law even outlawed a man looking at another man in a "certain" way!). (Africans and Middle Easterners still persecute gay people.)

Let's not repeat this cruelty with transgender people. Call them what they prefer.

At the heart of everything is an issue of does one person’s rights trump those of another person.
 
Life's too damn short to worry about what some sad sack wants to be called.
LOL, I use that term (sad sack) all the time. Maybe that could be what we all call these upset transvestites who do not wish to be called sir or madame? Sad Sack is clearly gender neutral, so maybe some might like that?

I'm kidding of course. The few times somebody has whined to me about me using the correct gender for them, then wanted to be called 'they' or 'it'--- I have elected to ignore them, and pledged never to address them in any way shape of form again. Treating them as if they are invisible works fine for me, but being forced to jump through their hoop? Fughetaboutit!
 
Life's too damn short to worry about what some sad sack wants to be called.
Only if you are a narcissistic a hole...

How much time does it take you to choose a word?
 
Whenever a person asks us to use a particular pronoun, what is the harm in agreeing to his/her/their request?

The overwhelming majority of humans are comfortable with the traditional pronouns, but if a person who looks like a man wishes to be addressed as "she" and "her," go ahead and make her day.

Life is so short and sad. Be kind to someone who may be in great mental stress and confusion about her gender identification.

For years, Americans and Europeans were so cruel to gay men. (Germany's law even outlawed a man looking at another man in a "certain" way!). (Africans and Middle Easterners still persecute gay people.)

Let's not repeat this cruelty with transgender people. Call them what they prefer.

What if they wanted to be called Mr President? To some, normalizing abnormal things is bad. And theres a difference between being intentionally cruel and enabling unusual behavior.
 
Only if you are a narcissistic a hole...

How much time does it take you to choose a word?
Boo hoo.

How far will you go in tolerating this crap? When someone demands you address them as "God" or "Master"?
 
Only if you are a narcissistic a hole...

How much time does it take you to choose a word?
What do you think are appropriate repercussions if someone chooses not to use the individual’s preferred pronouns, or just makes a mistake?
 
I agree with most of your reasoning but not with your conclusion.

Of course, it's courtesy to address someone in the way they prefer to be addressed.

What's not acceptable is for the university (or a government) to force someone to speak in a way that goes against their conscience. That's called compelled speech.
Professional organizations like a university always have a standard of conduct for their employees. Typically this means respectful and professional behavior is expected from teachers and students. Obviously universities can't have professors throwing insults, slurs and other abuse at their students. There have always been rules to prevent this. Why do you consider this "compelled speech" when transgender people are involved? How is it different from courtesy standards that have always existed?

To be clear, deliberately misgendering IS an insult. Think about all the subtext involved. It's like saying to a person "I think you are delusional, and I have a better understanding of your personal identity, innermost struggles, and genitalia than you do." Extremely arrogant and condescending. I have no problem with universities who think that crap damages the professional environment and regulate it accordingly.
 
Hummmmm.....all I have to say on this score is expect lots more Civil Tort around issues like this one. The only question going in will be which party do you want to be the plaintiff and which the defendant. I suspect we would end up with clearer decisions if the student was the plaintiff and the professor/university the defendants as opposed to the Professor being the plaintiff and the University being the Defendant.

The Professor did offer to call the Student by any name the Student wished. That could have been and probably should have been a reasonable compromise until the courts could weigh in......Just to take the heat down. Frankly I think it unreasonable for the transgender community to think it would just have its way on this issue given the current climate. "Professor, that was not nice" won't likely get you very far in Court though evidence could be presented that one to the point of a "hostile environment" and that would be substantive. I understand the "can't we just find a way to get along without going to Court" sentiment expressed by some in the thread.

Lots and lots of questions to be resolved. Was the student transgender before admission? Did the student identify as transgender before admission? Did the University accept the Student under those terms? If so, it falls to the University to provide a safe, hospitable environment for the student, whatever that takes IMO. I suspect under current law a public university can't really reject a transgender student on that basis alone. Its everything that can flow from there that has not been fleshed out.

This is going to create a ton of Tort in what is already the most litigious country on the planet by a country mile.
 
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To be clear, deliberately misgendering IS an insult.
BOO HOO.

No one who has to deal with a large group of people every day should have to play "Guess What Gender I Am Today" with all of them.

If a person is so fracking fragile that THEY consider being "misgendered" as an insult, then maybe that person should consider regular visits to a damn shrink.
 
A short quote from the OP article

"The professor argued that obliging the student’s requests would violate his own convictions as a Christian. "

Can anyone explain how being polite and speaking to the student using their preferred gender nouns is a violation of the professor's Christianity?
 

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