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Problems on college campuses.

justlogic

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Ok. So one of the issues the left seems to be most divided about are these so called "safe spaces" and "speech codes" popping up on college campuses. The argument against such seems to be simple, the first amendment, along with the fact that some safe spaces only allow only spacific "marginalized groups" to participate. (ie if you are either white, male, straight, and so on you can be prevented from such.) Essentially blatant discrimination on race, gender, and sexual orientation.

I haven't heard a solid argument for any of the above. I am interested if anyone on here can make a solid case for any of the below.

Speech codes don't violate the first amendment.

Speech codes don't suppress other political opinions.

Establishing Safe Spaces is a valuable utilization of resources for college campuses.

Discrimination against "non marginalized" groups is not still discrimination.

There are other problems as well, but didn't want this post to be to long.
Thanks!
 

David_N

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Ok. So one of the issues the left seems to be most divided about are these so called "safe spaces" and "speech codes" popping up on college campuses. The argument against such seems to be simple, the first amendment, along with the fact that some safe spaces only allow only spacific "marginalized groups" to participate. (ie if you are either white, male, straight, and so on you can be prevented from such.) Essentially blatant discrimination on race, gender, and sexual orientation.

I haven't heard a solid argument for any of the above. I am interested if anyone on here can make a solid case for any of the below.

Speech codes don't violate the first amendment.

Speech codes don't suppress other political opinions.

Establishing Safe Spaces is a valuable utilization of resources for college campuses.

Discrimination against "non marginalized" groups is not still discrimination.

There are other problems as well, but didn't want this post to be to long.
Thanks!
Speech codes don't violate the first amendment.
At a private college.
Speech codes don't suppress other political opinions.
I used to defend colleges, but I have to be real. Try expressing a conservative opinion at a college, or try to find a conservative professor in a place like cali. Anyways, back to the speech codes.. You do know about students literally screaming when people tried to hold a honest conversation about political correctness? Or the students who acted like scared children when they heard about "TRUMP"
Forbes Welcome
Establishing Safe Spaces is a valuable utilization of resources for college campuses.
Uhh... no.
Discrimination against "non marginalized" groups is not still discrimination.
???
 

Gaius46

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It's been 3 decades since I graduated college but isn't the point - or at least one of the major points - of college to make you uncomfortable? To challenge your notions of how the world works? I went into college a rather sheltered 18 year old whose world view was pretty much formed by my parents' ideas of how the world worked. Let's just say I came out of college being able to think for myself and rejecting much of what I believed when I went in.

Speech codes at private universities don't violate the first amendment since the first amendment doesn't apply to them. The real question is how can a college do it's job if it doesn't allow for the free flow of ideas?
 

TheGoverness

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I have a feeling i'm gonna really hate college because of stuff like this. I'm personally open to any form of discussion and debate, but all these 'speech codes' and 'safe spaces' are just there to shoot that all down, so everyone's feelings can be coddled to and no one can be offended.
 

Crovax

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I have a feeling i'm gonna really hate college because of stuff like this. I'm personally open to any form of discussion and debate, but all these 'speech codes' and 'safe spaces' are just there to shoot that all down, so everyone's feelings can be coddled to and no one can be offended.

Depends on where you are planning to go to college
 

David_N

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I have a feeling i'm gonna really hate college because of stuff like this. I'm personally open to any form of discussion and debate, but all these 'speech codes' and 'safe spaces' are just there to shoot that all down, so everyone's feelings can be coddled to and no one can be offended.

Well, you should be fine if you're going to a college in Texas. -
 

Crovax

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Well, you should be fine if you're going to a college in Texas. -

Yeah that far left liberal **** doesn't fly down here even on college campuses
 

Fiddytree

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Safe spaces are genuinely useful tools in discrete places in the university, just as they are out in the world. Anyone that has been in therapy groups or peer support groups knows the value of establishing those kind of ground rules. Given that youth come into, or normally come into, their own during this time, those with difficult backgrounds or minority backgrounds, can often need a place where they can shed the worries that accompany that history or that stigma.

However, there is no reason why safe spaces need to become the de facto response to every notion of contrary viewpoint or contrary exposure. The university needs to be a place where these individuals intellectually grow, and that necessarily requires exposure to different viewpoints. For one thing, opening up the borders (within reason, mind you) in the university or in the classroom allows people to come together, get exposed to ideas, debate them, and come out the better for it. Furthermore, if you are a person with that unique experience and background, you can bring that to the forefront of discussion in order to potentially alter the perceptions of peers and mentors alike. Lastly, this exposure grows your talents to affect change. If these students are of the social justice persuasion, understanding one's potential foes or allies is one of the most important parts of trying to affect change in your community. Neglecting the argumentative process and critical overview of perspectives will in the end make you a less effective advocate. That's part of the intellectual process--a process by which the university is specially able to foster and the process by which it is supposed to see as its central purpose.
 

eohrnberger

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The liberal / progressive left are planting these seeds for future society in the young adults.

Once introduced to, and forced to comply with these BS excessive PC controls, the young won't object to them later in their adult lives, which makes these now adults all the easier to control and manipulate.

All the left has to do is spin the excessively PC dial on some facet of life they don't like, and vuala! Instant banishment of that facet, and instant social punishment for those that participate in that facet.

Exactly the control the left end of the political spectrum wants of the common, (and believed to be) less intelligent population (read, anyone that disagrees with them and their ideology).
 

HonestJoe

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I haven't heard a solid argument for any of the above. I am interested if anyone on here can make a solid case for any of the below.
As a pretty neutral outsider, maybe I can give that a shot;

Speech codes don't violate the first amendment.
That would depend on the specifics and implementation. There are clearly legitimate conditions and limitations and speech that universities can legitimately impose on their campus (no 3am parties, no music during lectures, no explicitly threats or intimidation etc.) so it’s just a question of where the constitutional line is drawn and how close any given “speech code” comes to that line.

Speech codes don't suppress other political opinions.
I think it would have to be a pretty extreme speech code to prevent legitimate political expression. There are obvious legitimate restrictions though (for example, someone objecting to nudity laws might be prevented from walking naked around the campus). So again, it’s not an automatic thing but conditional.

Establishing Safe Spaces is a valuable utilization of resources for college campuses.
If they’re improving the quality of life for some students, not actively harming anyone else and the costs isn’t excessive, that could be a worthwhile utilisation. I personally suspect the concept has become too politicised to be of much real benefit now and I’m not convinced it was the best approach to these problems but as fundamental concept it wasn’t automatically without value.

Discrimination against "non marginalized" groups is not still discrimination.
Only if they’re (generally we’re as it happens) actually being discriminated against. Provision for actually marginalised students because they’re marginalised isn’t discriminatory by definition. I’m not being discriminated against because disabled people get to drive around in electric wheelchairs.

Frankly I think you’re all as bad as each other, with individuals and groups on all sides wilfully stirring the pot to turn this whole area in to a much bigger mess that it ever needed to be and I don’t see any of the key players being willing to make the concessions and moves back to rationality to resolve anything in the near future.
 

justlogic

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No opposition of free speech so far. Possibly because most people here, unlike most, try to genuinely understand the other side of the argument.
 

ocean515

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I have a feeling i'm gonna really hate college because of stuff like this. I'm personally open to any form of discussion and debate, but all these 'speech codes' and 'safe spaces' are just there to shoot that all down, so everyone's feelings can be coddled to and no one can be offended.

What should concern you more is the message being instilled in the students that certain peoples feelings can be ignored, and some people can be offended. That is the flip side of this very warped trend taking place across college campuses.
 

Fiddytree

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No opposition of free speech so far. Possibly because most people here, unlike most, try to genuinely understand the other side of the argument.

I wouldn't go anywhere near that far. Most people here vaguely try to understand the other side, but they don't make it a daily or weekly challenge, or do it with sincerity.

If this thread expands, I may address some of the history of conceptions of freedom of speech in the university over the last half century. To be succinct, I have noticed a growing number of conservatives ironically gravitating toward legitimizing the Free Speech Movement at UC Berkeley during 1962 and 1963. I, for one, thought that critics of the Free Speech Movement were largely correct and offers insight for what they ought to see as a continued devolution in the university. But conservatives have ironically turned against that because no one can object to free speech, even though the Free Speech Movement was mostly a misnomer.
 

Ikari

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The liberal / progressive left are planting these seeds for future society in the young adults.

Once introduced to, and forced to comply with these BS excessive PC controls, the young won't object to them later in their adult lives, which makes these now adults all the easier to control and manipulate.

All the left has to do is spin the excessively PC dial on some facet of life they don't like, and vuala! Instant banishment of that facet, and instant social punishment for those that participate in that facet.

Exactly the control the left end of the political spectrum wants of the common, (and believed to be) less intelligent population (read, anyone that disagrees with them and their ideology).

This sort of Draconian, get used to being watched and controlled by the authority, Big Brother, Big Thought Control style crap is not due just to the left.
 

RJApple

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Ok. So one of the issues the left seems to be most divided about are these so called "safe spaces" and "speech codes" popping up on college campuses. The argument against such seems to be simple, the first amendment, along with the fact that some safe spaces only allow only spacific "marginalized groups" to participate. (ie if you are either white, male, straight, and so on you can be prevented from such.) Essentially blatant discrimination on race, gender, and sexual orientation.

I haven't heard a solid argument for any of the above. I am interested if anyone on here can make a solid case for any of the below.

Speech codes don't violate the first amendment.

Speech codes don't suppress other political opinions.

Establishing Safe Spaces is a valuable utilization of resources for college campuses.

Discrimination against "non marginalized" groups is not still discrimination.

There are other problems as well, but didn't want this post to be to long.
Thanks!

At this point, I am firmly of the same persuasion as Milo: any student who requests a safe-space, speech-code, or trigger-warning should be immediately expelled. By doing this, the student demonstrates that they are unable to function properly in the real world and deal with conflicting viewpoints. There are no safe-spaces/trigger-warnings/speech-codes (at least, not yet) in real life, nor should there be. If you cannot conduct yourself even remotely like an adult, you don't belong at a university; take a few years and come back when you are ready. College is not about coddling students and protecting their sensitivities; college is about learning and interacting with views which differ from your own.
 

justlogic

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What should concern you more is the message being instilled in the students that certain peoples feelings can be ignored, and some people can be offended. That is the flip side of this very warped trend taking place across college campuses.
This ^^^^ These attitudes are ultimately what I believe is preventing any kind of productive discussion on campus. A general hostility towards and exclusion of those with dissenting opinion.

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ocean515

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This ^^^^ These attitudes are ultimately what I believe is preventing any kind of productive discussion on campus. A general hostility towards and exclusion of those with dissenting opinion.

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And it's all part of the plan.....
 

eohrnberger

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This sort of Draconian, get used to being watched and controlled by the authority, Big Brother, Big Thought Control style crap is not due just to the left.

You know, I'm trying to recall instances of other than the left, and the only thing I can think of is the Patriot Act, which has been limited to a more reasonable stance.

Do you have a few more examples for due consideration?
 

Ikari

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You know, I'm trying to recall instances of other than the left, and the only thing I can think of is the Patriot Act, which has been limited to a more reasonable stance.

Do you have a few more examples for due consideration?

Things like the NSA, constant monitoring, the absolute defense of authority. FISA and secret courts. HLS, TSA, etc. There's nothing reasonable about the Patriot Act, there have been horrible breeches of power that we do nothing about.

Control is a Republocrat thing, it's not limited to left or right. It was never meant to be Left vs. Right. Rather it should be, it in fact is, Government v. The People.
 

Fiddytree

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At this point, I am firmly of the same persuasion as Milo: any student who requests a safe-space, speech-code, or trigger-warning should be immediately expelled. By doing this, the student demonstrates that they are unable to function properly in the real world and deal with conflicting viewpoints. There are no safe-spaces/trigger-warnings/speech-codes (at least, not yet) in real life, nor should there be. If you cannot conduct yourself even remotely like an adult, you don't belong at a university; take a few years and come back when you are ready. College is not about coddling students and protecting their sensitivities; college is about learning and interacting with views which differ from your own.

That's a stupid idea.

All an instructor has to do is say that they will not be providing trigger warnings or safe spaces in their classroom. Administration can also allow or deny the use of safe spaces and explain why or why not.

Expelling the student for making a request is above and beyond an overreaction and self-injurious for the institution. Unless you think so little of responsible adult professionals, there is no reason why the institution has to act just as childishly as those you accuse of being immature.
 

justlogic

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I think it would have to be a pretty extreme speech code to prevent legitimate political expression. There are obvious legitimate restrictions though (for example, someone objecting to nudity laws might be prevented from walking naked around the campus). So again, it’s not an automatic thing but conditional.

Many California campuses are trying to ban discussion of any students ability to attend that school on the basis if race, nationality, gender... In other words, you can't vocally side with the majority of people in the US who think non-citizens shouldn't get in state tuition because it might hurt the feelings of those benefiting from existing law. Extreme is the direction this is all headed without pushback.



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Skeptic Bob

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It's been 3 decades since I graduated college but isn't the point - or at least one of the major points - of college to make you uncomfortable? To challenge your notions of how the world works? I went into college a rather sheltered 18 year old whose world view was pretty much formed by my parents' ideas of how the world worked. Let's just say I came out of college being able to think for myself and rejecting much of what I believed when I went in.

Speech codes at private universities don't violate the first amendment since the first amendment doesn't apply to them. The real question is how can a college do it's job if it doesn't allow for the free flow of ideas?

This. College is supposed to challenge your beliefs and positions and force you to examine their merits. Sometimes this will result in you getting offended. Deal with it. You are about to enter the real world. And the real world has sharp corners and hard edges.

Your dorm room is your safe space.
 
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