Pro-life vs. pro-birth

[Logician Man]

hmmm tell voters that one.

Also, as we discussed in other threads, that logic doesn't follow. There is are a lot of assisted suicide cases, in places where it is considered murder, and again, cops aren't storming around looking to prosecuted such things.

Well, if you believe that abortion is murder, and millions of people do, then those democrats that support abortion are killing babies. They're promoting it and are...well...just dandy with it. Sorry but, that's just how it is. Now, these democrats may not believe that abortion is murder, but it's a separation without a difference, as I've explained in other threads.

Doesn't matter what you think or have explained. Abortion is not murder....end.... of....story

 

[minnie616]

Great, but don't expect to win then. Which is sad, because i think when you say that you want children clothed and fed, you're sincere. I think it's entirely reasonable that, from all the added children that have to live in underprivileged homes, without abortion, i should pay a few more tax dollars to make sure they're clothed in fed, and get good education, and become productive citizens. How is that an evil thing? How am I somehow against feeding and clothing children?

It would cost much more than a few tax dollars to add 800,000 unwanted children each year.

Foster care was about $40,000 a year per child in 2006.

From the following article:

Despite more than a decade of intended reform, the nation's foster care system is still overcrowded and rife with problems.
But taxpayers are spending $22 billion a year -- or $40,000 a child -- on foster care programs.

Facts on Foster Care in America - ABC News

Compare that to the average cost per year of raising a middle income child born in 2013.


The average cost of raising a child is $13,600 a year according to this 2013 stat.

From the U.S. department of Agriculture.

The average cost of raising a child born in 2013 up until age 18 for a middle-income family in the U.S. is approximately $245,340 (or $304,480, adjusted for projected inflation), according to the latest annual “Cost of Raising A Child” report from the U.S.

Department of Agriculture.Aug 18, 2014

 

[Scrabaholic]

where is abortion enumerated?

Where did I say it is?

 

[jghiretire]

They are charlatans and demagogues spending money to inject religious belief into legislation. Do not fool yourself into thinking this is not based in christian authoritarianism.



The anti-choice, pro birth movement began with the catholic church. I don't particularly give a **** about the individuals that compose the movement. I care about who pulls the strings. That and the evangelical movement after them.

The entire thing is rooted in christianity.

Well the funny part about that is, in the Bible it isn't a child until it takes its first breath. So the whole "religious" aspect is crap. Just another way to control women. We're so scary ya know.

 

[jghiretire]

There's an extreme irony in accusing others of forcing their beliefs while simultaneously forcing a fetus to die for what you believe to be a woman's right. Don't force your belief onto a helpless fetus please.

As a wider response to the accusation that conservative/republicans don't care about life because they don't support welfare - this is a fallacy. Ending a human life and financially supporting a human life are not mutually exclusive. Do you need to be an animal-rights activists to be able to think that torturing dogs is wrong? No. You can absolutely despise dogs and still have a valid opinion that we should have laws against torturing them. Similarly, you don't have to be a feminist in order to think that abusing women is wrong. You can certainly be against abortion (ie, pro-life) even if you don't live up to some other arbitrary standards.

The difference is - no one will force you to have an abortion - unlike pro-life will force you to have the child. You will never ever have that problem - you will never be pregnant. So why should someone like you be able to tell someone like me, what's right for me and my family??
Who is it that always cuts funding for women and children's programs?? Hmmm let me think. The GOP.

 

[Obscurity]

The difference is - no one will force you to have an abortion - unlike pro-life will force you to have the child. You will never ever have that problem - you will never be pregnant. So why should someone like you be able to tell someone like me, what's right for me and my family??
Who is it that always cuts funding for women and children's programs?? Hmmm let me think. The GOP.

The GOP was never for anyone's rights, lets just be clear.

 

[jghiretire]

You don't have the right to kill the unborn, since you will never be pregnant.

I find it so interesting that so many men who will never have to decide, have such opinions. Maybe everyone should have a say in whether a man gets a vasectomy.

 

[jghiretire]

But that's what people believe though. You may not agree, but when so many people believe it, and choose to believe, based on their definition of human life, then legality takes a back seat. Sorry but, a lot of people in the south sincerely believe democrats are baby killers. So why vote for them? That's not a very high moral bar for republicans to win against. Roy Moore lost because people would normally vote for him to win, thought the contest was between a democrat baby killer, and a republican pedophile.

I hate to break it to you but legality should never be replaced due to someone's personal beliefs. Would you care to explain your reasoning??

 

[Peter King]

Good for you. That didn't address what I asked. Why can't you compromise with them? 80% of america, at the very least, want babies taken care of when they're born. Why not run pro-life democrats in the south then, beef up child benefit programs, and let them illegalize abortion? It seems everyone gets what they want then, in your argument.

Nonsense, because women do not get what they want, the right of self determination, a return to back alley abortions and a huge import of abortion pills from outside of the US. And rich women will still be getting abortions by going to countries were the right to choose of women is still respected.

 

[Crusader13]

Many Pro choice Christian churches and religious do not believe the unborn has soul.

Many Muslims believe it is OK to crash airliners into buildings. Stupid people exist in every faith.

When God formed Adam he breathed into Adams nose and mouth the breath of life and Adam became a living soul.

The story of Genesis is symbolic, but taking for face value - Adam wasn't born, he was created...by God. Not by a woman's choice to carry a pregnancy, but by God's hands. At the point of conception God has already taken dust from the earth and formed a life. If you believe God created (and creates) life, how could you possibly believe that it is up to a woman's vagina to give that life a soul? That goes against Genesis. It implies God is imperfect and his creation needs a woman's consent or approval to be validated.

Besides, there is no clear indication of when God breathed life into Adam's soul. You could just as easily interpret that as saying the breath of life is conception.

The Bible clearly teaches life comes with live birth.

Source? It clearly teaches that life comes with God. His hands, his decision, his plan. A woman's choice, validation, or vaginal canal have nothing to do with it.

Here is a snip from a 1968 Christianity Today article:


My Take: When evangelicals were pro-choice – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

Which you probably didn't even read or understand. Laughably, it quotes the Old Testament (Jewish law) as Christian teaching, which is absurd.

Going by Exodus 21, a man owns a woman and we should all practice an eye for an eye. Of course, that is direct violation of what Jesus said in Matthew (5:38-42) - "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you...turn the other cheek".

You might have more like using that argument as to why Jews should have abortions. Even then, it would be a balls argument since Exodus 21 says nothing about where life begins. It simply says that a premature pregnancy caused by beating should be punishable by what the husband demands.

You have a very dangerous, and equally incorrect, interpretation of Christianity. Can't even get the fundamentals of the faith right, let alone construct the ability to argue with thousands of years of accomplished scholars and saints who disagree with you. Try harder.

 

[Logician Man]

Many Muslims believe it is OK to crash airliners into buildings. Stupid people exist in every faith.



The story of Genesis is symbolic, but taking for face value - Adam wasn't born, he was created...by God. Not by a woman's choice to carry a pregnancy, but by God's hands. At the point of conception God has already taken dust from the earth and formed a life. If you believe God created (and creates) life, how could you possibly believe that it is up to a woman's vagina to give that life a soul? That goes against Genesis. It implies God is imperfect and his creation needs a woman's consent or approval to be validated.

Besides, there is no clear indication of when God breathed life into Adam's soul. You could just as easily interpret that as saying the breath of life is conception.



Source? It clearly teaches that life comes with God. His hands, his decision, his plan. A woman's choice, validation, or vaginal canal have nothing to do with it.




Which you probably didn't even read or understand. Laughably, it quotes the Old Testament (Jewish law) as Christian teaching, which is absurd.

Going by Exodus 21, a man owns a woman and we should all practice an eye for an eye. Of course, that is direct violation of what Jesus said in Matthew (5:38-42) - "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you...turn the other cheek".

You might have more like using that argument as to why Jews should have abortions. Even then, it would be a balls argument since Exodus 21 says nothing about where life begins. It simply says that a premature pregnancy caused by beating should be punishable by what the husband demands.

You have a very dangerous, and equally incorrect, interpretation of Christianity. Can't even get the fundamentals of the faith right, let alone construct the ability to argue with thousands of years of accomplished scholars and saints who disagree with you. Try harder.

//// You have a very dangerous, and equally incorrect, interpretation of Christianity. //// Until, or unless you can 'prove' your 'personal' interpretation to be factual truth ( which you can't ),....so may you.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Nonsense, because women do not get what they want, the right of self determination, a return to back alley abortions and a huge import of abortion pills from outside of the US. And rich women will still be getting abortions by going to countries were the right to choose of women is still respected.

Women have no concern at all for feeding, clothing, and educating children? That's what you're saying?

 

[minnie616]

...

You might have more like using that argument as to why Jews should have abortions. Even then, it would be a balls argument since Exodus 21 says nothing about where life begins. It simply says that a premature pregnancy caused by beating should be punishable by what the husband demands.

Life begins with the breath of life. The vast majority of the Jewish clergy and people belive that as do a good number of Protestant religions.

As for premature pregnancy there is no such thing.

Causing her to lose the fruit of her womb means miscarriage.

In the Biblical days a pregnancy either ended in birth, stillbirth or miscarriage.

There was no way to calculate if a premature birth.

In Part IX of Roe v Wade the justices concidered the sincere beliefs of Jewish and Protestant religions in regards to our positions about abortions.

From Roe Part IX

There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote 56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57] It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58]

 

[jghiretire]

The GOP was never for anyone's rights, lets just be clear.

Except their business handlers.

 

[Peter King]

Women have no concern at all for feeding, clothing, and educating children? That's what you're saying?

Nonsense, that is not what I am saying.

 

[Crusader13]

//// You have a very dangerous, and equally incorrect, interpretation of Christianity. //// Until, or unless you can 'prove' your 'personal' interpretation to be factual truth ( which you can't ),....so may you.

My interpretation of Christianity doesn't kill millions of people every year. Yours does.

Besides, I've already provided religious reasoning as to why abortion is wrong. It's plastered all over the Bible - from thou shall not kill, to fornication is wrong, and even to doing unto others what you would like done to yourself. There is no way to separate Christianity and the Bible from these fundamental tenets. Anyone who tries needs to consume less soy.

You need to realize that it is destructive, dangerous, and toxic thinking like this which has destroyed the faith throughout history. There were plenty of Christians who used to believe that burning people on the cross was justified if they practiced dark magic. There are plenty of Christians who believe abortion is justified. There will be plenty of Christians tomorrow who think ending life based on some other criteria is OK as well. There will always be those who think the 6th commandment doesn't matter or can be sneaked around. It can't. It's inalienable.

 

[Logician Man]

My interpretation of Christianity doesn't kill millions of people every year. Yours does.

Besides, I've already provided religious reasoning as to why abortion is wrong. It's plastered all over the Bible - from thou shall not kill, to fornication is wrong, and even to doing unto others what you would like done to yourself. There is no way to separate Christianity and the Bible from these fundamental tenets. Anyone who tries needs to consume less soy.

You need to realize that it is destructive, dangerous, and toxic thinking like this which has destroyed the faith throughout history. There were plenty of Christians who used to believe that burning people on the cross was justified if they practiced dark magic. There are plenty of Christians who believe abortion is justified. There will be plenty of Christians tomorrow who think ending life based on some other criteria is OK as well. There will always be those who think the 6th commandment doesn't matter or can be sneaked around. It can't. It's inalienable.

My interpretation of Christianity doesn't kill millions of people every year. ///// Yours does. ///// Oh really ? Do tell me about my interpretation of Christianity. Are you a minder reader ? and if you are, isn't such a thing non-biblical ?

 

[Angel]

If I may, Logician Man, why are Pro-Life people obligated to do anything more than save the life of the unborn, in your opinion?* If you save a homeless person by dragging him out of an abandoned building that had caught fire, should you then be obligated to then give him a room in your house and to feed him and clothe him?

I would say that if the children of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies were at risk of starving to death in the United States, and pro-life conservatives let them starve in their communities certainly. But I have no evidence of that.

*EDIT: Doing a brief search of Pro-Life Advocacy Sites leads me to find most of them are ardently pro-Adoption, and encourage pro-life supporters to put their money where their mouth is.

This is the second post of yours I've come across in two days perusing in this particular subforum, the second post of yours offering good sense and reason on the topic of abortion -- the second of your posts, I say, that goes completely ignored by the thread starter and the other vanity posters storming the thread with their shibboleths and second-hand opinions.

Just wished to note this curiosity, and to let you know, Felis Leo, that at least this member is appreciative of your posts.

 

[Scrabaholic]

My interpretation of Christianity doesn't kill millions of people every year. Yours does.

Bovine excrement.

from thou shall not kill

Unless you are vegan, you break that commandment every day. And if you kill rodents, bugs etc....

to fornication is wrong

That doesn't say that a woman cannot terminate her pregnancy.

and even to doing unto others what you would like done to yourself.

The so-and-so that birthed me should have aborted all her pregnancies. There, I get to be pro choice, right?

 

[Dragonfly]

My interpretation of Christianity doesn't kill millions of people every year. Yours does.

Besides, I've already provided religious reasoning as to why abortion is wrong. It's plastered all over the Bible - from thou shall not kill, to fornication is wrong, and even to doing unto others what you would like done to yourself. There is no way to separate Christianity and the Bible from these fundamental tenets. Anyone who tries needs to consume less soy.

You need to realize that it is destructive, dangerous, and toxic thinking like this which has destroyed the faith throughout history. There were plenty of Christians who used to believe that burning people on the cross was justified if they practiced dark magic. There are plenty of Christians who believe abortion is justified. There will be plenty of Christians tomorrow who think ending life based on some other criteria is OK as well. There will always be those who think the 6th commandment doesn't matter or can be sneaked around. It can't. It's inalienable.

How do you feel about the First Amendment? For it, or against it?

 

[Lursa]

If I may, Logician Man, why are Pro-Life people obligated to do anything more than save the life of the unborn, in your opinion?

They are not. But it's very common to see the same pro-life people complaining about welfare and other public assistance. Including ending it altogether.

We had posts on that in this sub-forum just in the past few days. Total resentment that women would then go on welfare to raise their kid and that then they'd have to pay.

That is the ultimate in hypocrisy. To try to get laws changed to forbid abortion forcing women to have kids they cant afford, and then deny them the support to raise the kid.

Then there are the pro-lifers that blithely ignore the implications on the more than 100,000 kids in the US already waiting to be adopted. (Not in foster care, that 400,000). These kids are already aware, waiting, hoping for homes and for each infant born and added to that pool, the less their chances are of being adopted grow less. It takes some real ethical contortions to encourage women to have kids they cant afford/dont want and just put them up for adoption when there are already so many in need.

I guess it depends on if you value quality of life over quantity. To me, a life is more than just breathing.

 

[Crusader13]

Unless you are vegan, you break that commandment every day. And if you kill rodents, bugs etc....

Well again, in purely Christian terms a human life has more value than an animal's. And the Ten Commandments were clearly written referring to ending human lives. Other parts in the Bible support this - such as when God was furious with Cain for killing Abel.

That doesn't say that a woman cannot terminate her pregnancy.

You're clinging to desperate technicalities again. Just because the Bible doesn't explicitly mention something is bad doesn't mean you get a free pass to do it. Watch - the Bible does technically say homosexuality is bad, but it doesn't say anything about having late night orgies with the lights turned off while JayZ is playing in the background. Guess that means it's OK!

Abortion is an extended form of contraception. That's clearly a violation of Biblical values. God told Adam and Eve to multiply - not enjoy sex irresponsibility and then demand to be able to do something even more immoral when it comes back to bite them.

 

[Sweden]

A lot of people here in the abortion forum area professing to be avid pro-lifers, passing judgement on those who are pro-choice, and calling abortion ( a legal procedure per the laws of the land ) murder ( a fallacious claim often used for inflammatory purposes. ). More pro-lifers seem to be claiming to be conservatives as opposed to being liberals, yet conservatives are the very first to vote for politicians who cut funding for vital health care, food programs, subsidized housing, and other basic needs for the needy who need this assistance to properly feed, clothe, and house the babies once they are born. So, I have two questions for avid pro-lifers. 1) Other than voicing outrage against 'legal' abortions on a message board, what have you done, are doing, or will do in the future to help the unborns and after they are actually born, and 2), Is is just possible it is more appropriate to say you are more of a pro-birth supporter than a pro-life supporter ?

Only in America? I'm broadly conservative and strongly pro-choice. In Europe holding both these positions would not be seen as unusual. Just another example of religion and politics being tangled up in the US.

 

[Scrabaholic]

Well again, in purely Christian terms a human life has more value than an animal's. And the Ten Commandments were clearly written referring to ending human lives. Other parts in the Bible support this - such as when God was furious with Cain for killing Abel.

It does not specify human.

Besides, many scholars believe the correct translation is "murder" not "kill". Abortion is not murder.

You're clinging to desperate technicalities again. Just because the Bible doesn't explicitly mention something is bad doesn't mean you get a free pass to do it. Watch - the Bible does technically say homosexuality is bad, but it doesn't say anything about having late night orgies with the lights turned off while JayZ is playing in the background. Guess that means it's OK!

There is nothing wrong with it, if that is what the consenting parties agree to. Though I have no idea who JayZ is.

Abortion is an extended form of contraception.

Incorrect. Contraception prevents conception. Sheesh, that's pretty basic knowledge.

God told Adam and Eve to multiply

Two specific people, not the entirety of humankind. The world is plenty populated anyway.

not enjoy sex irresponsibility and then demand to be able to do something even more immoral when it comes back to bite them.

Abortion is not immoral.

 

[Crusader13]

It does not specify human.

So now you're trying to argue that stepping on bugs is anti-Christian and can send you to hell?

Like I said, you're just clinging to desperate arguments that make no sense now.

Besides, many scholars believe the correct translation is "murder" not "kill". Abortion is not murder.

LOL... Abortion is only not murder by a legal standpoint. The Bible was written well before the US legal system or Constitution. The law doesn't change what the Bible means.

You could also stop calling gay sex 'homosexuality', it would still be wrong by Biblical morals.

Incorrect. Contraception prevents conception. Sheesh, that's pretty basic knowledge.

Abortion is extended or retrospective contraception. And if you agree that contraception is wrong, like the Bible outlines,, how could you possibly think abortion is justified under the same framework? You're contradicting yourself.

Two specific people, not the entirety of humankind.

LOL troll confirmed. "Jesus only told his disciples not to cheat on their wives or honor his flesh every Sunday. That means the rest of us don't have to do it!"

Don't even try anymore.