Pro-life vs. pro-birth

[Logician Man]

A lot of people here in the abortion forum area professing to be avid pro-lifers, passing judgement on those who are pro-choice, and calling abortion ( a legal procedure per the laws of the land ) murder ( a fallacious claim often used for inflammatory purposes. ). More pro-lifers seem to be claiming to be conservatives as opposed to being liberals, yet conservatives are the very first to vote for politicians who cut funding for vital health care, food programs, subsidized housing, and other basic needs for the needy who need this assistance to properly feed, clothe, and house the babies once they are born. So, I have two questions for avid pro-lifers. 1) Other than voicing outrage against 'legal' abortions on a message board, what have you done, are doing, or will do in the future to help the unborns and after they are actually born, and 2), Is is just possible it is more appropriate to say you are more of a pro-birth supporter than a pro-life supporter ?

 

[Wayne Jr]

Abortion is just another avenue for people to try to force their religion on others. That's all there is to it. If pro-life actually believed the unborn were people, not a single clinic would remain standing by dawn 2/5/2019 (only the morally bankrupt would tolerate such a facility). They're all liers, they don't even realize the bible is not pro-life. Hypocrites, every last one.

 

[DarkWizard12]

A lot of people here in the abortion forum area professing to be avid pro-lifers, passing judgement on those who are pro-choice, and calling abortion ( a legal procedure per the laws of the land ) murder ( a fallacious claim often used for inflammatory purposes. ). More pro-lifers seem to be claiming to be conservatives as opposed to being liberals, yet conservatives are the very first to vote for politicians who cut funding for vital health care, food programs, subsidized housing, and other basic needs for the needy who need this assistance to properly feed, clothe, and house the babies once they are born. So, I have two questions for avid pro-lifers. 1) Other than voicing outrage against 'legal' abortions on a message board, what have you done, are doing, or will do in the future to help the unborns and after they are actually born, and 2), Is is just possible it is more appropriate to say you are more of a pro-birth supporter than a pro-life supporter ?

You know, everytime it comes up to polling, ~80% of americans want benefits to babies born prematurely or without nutrition, and everyone wants babies from broken homes to have better parents and have opportunities to go to school and earn a living. How do such policies get such high numbers without the approval of pro-lifers(pro-birth, whatever you want to call them). Is there ANYONE out there that thinks babies should be born, and then just starve to death? Until you can show me who, no pro-lifers in their right mind should let you strawman them.

 

[Logician Man]

You know, everytime it comes up to polling, ~80% of americans want benefits to babies born prematurely or without nutrition, and everyone wants babies from broken homes to have better parents and have opportunities to go to school and earn a living. How do such policies get such high numbers without the approval of pro-lifers(pro-birth, whatever you want to call them). Is there ANYONE out there that thinks babies should be born, and then just starve to death? Until you can show me who, no pro-lifers in their right mind should let you strawman them.

Polling and funding are two very different issues.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Polling and funding are two very different issues.

Maybe but, again, I think people approve of taking care of children when they're born. Maybe some of the resistance you see from conservatives may have something to do with distrust in government rather any personal thing against poor children. Even then, someone who cuts benefits may be seen as morally superior to another who supports killing babies, in the mind of a pro-lifer. It's why I always say democrats have a chance to win in the south, if only they would be willing to compromise on abortion, but they don't. What choice, then, do you leave pro-life voters? A republican who cuts benefits against a democrat who supports killing babies. For a pro-life vote, it's an easy calculation.

 

[Logician Man]

Maybe but, again, I think people approve of taking care of children when they're born. Maybe some of the resistance you see from conservatives may have something to do with distrust in government rather any personal thing against poor children. Even then, someone who cuts benefits may be seen as morally superior to another who supports killing babies, in the mind of a pro-lifer. It's why I always say democrats have a chance to win in the south, if only they would be willing to compromise on abortion, but they don't. What choice, then, do you leave pro-life voters? A republican who cuts benefits against a democrat who supports killing babies. For a pro-life vote, it's an easy calculation.

Stop being intellectually dishonest and calling unborns 'babies.'

 

[DarkWizard12]

Stop being intellectually dishonest and calling unborns 'babies.'

Pro-lifers don't view it any differently. You may do so, but they don't. Since you want to take care of born babies so much, why can't you compromise with pro-life voters on that, for the sake of providing benefits to those children who are born? So many would support such programs if you did.

 

[Logician Man]

Pro-lifers don't view it any differently. You may do so, but they don't. Since you want to take care of born babies so much, why can't you compromise with pro-life voters on that, for the sake of providing benefits to those children who are born? So many would support such programs if you did.

I'm currently raising one of my great grand sons my wife and I adopted after talking one of our grand daughters out of aborting.......next

 

[OrphanSlug]

A lot of people here in the abortion forum area professing to be avid pro-lifers, passing judgement on those who are pro-choice, and calling abortion ( a legal procedure per the laws of the land ) murder ( a fallacious claim often used for inflammatory purposes. ). More pro-lifers seem to be claiming to be conservatives as opposed to being liberals, yet conservatives are the very first to vote for politicians who cut funding for vital health care, food programs, subsidized housing, and other basic needs for the needy who need this assistance to properly feed, clothe, and house the babies once they are born. So, I have two questions for avid pro-lifers. 1) Other than voicing outrage against 'legal' abortions on a message board, what have you done, are doing, or will do in the future to help the unborns and after they are actually born, and 2), Is is just possible it is more appropriate to say you are more of a pro-birth supporter than a pro-life supporter ?

The abortion debate itself has become so polarizing that even basic discussion on this is no longer plausible. I highly doubt going down the route of pro-life vs. pro-birth will do much for how we got to this point.

 

[DarkWizard12]

I'm currently raising one of my great grand sons my wife and I adopted after talking one of our grand daughters out of aborting.......next

Good for you. That didn't address what I asked. Why can't you compromise with them? 80% of america, at the very least, want babies taken care of when they're born. Why not run pro-life democrats in the south then, beef up child benefit programs, and let them illegalize abortion? It seems everyone gets what they want then, in your argument.

 

[Incredulous]

Polling is lip service. Child hunger should not exist in America; yet it does - in EVERY county in the United States.


6 Startling Facts About Child Hunger in the U.S.

"You see a lot of PSAs about international hunger and how hunger is threatening lives around the world," Clay Dunn, chief communications officer at nonprofit No Kid Hungry, tells Mashable. "What most people don't realize is that we have an epidemic of hunger right here."

1. 16 million American kids struggle with hunger each year.
2. 62% of teachers say children in their classrooms are coming to school hungry.
3. Children facing hunger are twice as likely to repeat a grade in elementary school.
4. Nearly half of all food stamp recipients are children.
5. 20% of food-insecure families are not eligible for government assistance.
6. Black and latino children experience hunger and double the rate of white children.


Childhood Hunger in America Statistics and Facts

"Kids who don’t get enough to eat — especially during their first three years — begin life at a serious disadvantage. When they’re hungry, children are more likely to be hospitalized and they face higher risks of health conditions like anemia and asthma. And as they grow up, kids struggling to get enough to eat are more likely to have problems in school and other social situations."


We have the food supply. You can want, wish, and dream for all babies to be born wanted and cared for but that's not reality.

 

[Logician Man]

Good for you. That didn't address what I asked. Why can't you compromise with them? 80% of america, at the very least, want babies taken care of when they're born. Why not run pro-life democrats in the south then, beef up child benefit programs, and let them illegalize abortion? It seems everyone gets what they want then, in your argument.

My OP really doesn't make any argument. It asks for answers to two specific questions....neither of which you addressed.

 

[DarkWizard12]

My OP really doesn't make any argument. It asks for answers to two specific questions....neither of which you addressed.

because these 'pro-lifers' who don't think babies should be taken care of after birth and have the opportunity to have a good parents and go to school.....I'd like to know who these pro-lifers are because I don't know a single pro-life organization that's against these things. So it seems your questions are on false pretenses. I'm prolife, AND I want babies taken care after they're born. What's inconsistent about that?

 

[Felis Leo]

Abortion is just another avenue for people to try to force their religion on others. That's all there is to it. If pro-life actually believed the unborn were people, not a single clinic would remain standing by dawn 2/5/2019 (only the morally bankrupt would tolerate such a facility).

Because most Pro-Lifers are law-abiding citizens and try to work to change what they consider to be unjust laws.

They're all liers, they don't even realize the bible is not pro-life.

That presumes that all pro-life advocates divine their beliefs from Biblical scripture.

Hypocrites, every last one.

Total nonsense, Wayne Jr.

 

[Felis Leo]

1) Other than voicing outrage against 'legal' abortions on a message board, what have you done, are doing, or will do in the future to help the unborns and after they are actually born,

If I may, Logician Man, why are Pro-Life people obligated to do anything more than save the life of the unborn, in your opinion?* If you save a homeless person by dragging him out of an abandoned building that had caught fire, should you then be obligated to then give him a room in your house and to feed him and clothe him?

and 2), Is is just possible it is more appropriate to say you are more of a pro-birth supporter than a pro-life supporter ?

I would say that if the children of unplanned or unwanted pregnancies were at risk of starving to death in the United States, and pro-life conservatives let them starve in their communities certainly. But I have no evidence of that.

*EDIT: Doing a brief search of Pro-Life Advocacy Sites leads me to find most of them are ardently pro-Adoption, and encourage pro-life supporters to put their money where their mouth is.

 

[bongsaway]

The right loves a fetus, it's the baby they don't care much for. You know the welfare queens with a hundred and ten babies. It's just another way for the religious to impose their beliefs on others. The same party who says we want government out of our business.

They say they are pro-life but are more than willing to cut the lifelines to those in need. Go figure.

 

[prometeus]

Because most Pro-Lifers are law-abiding citizens and try to work to change what they consider to be unjust laws.

By why impose on others their beliefs?

That presumes that all pro-life advocates divine their beliefs from Biblical scripture.

By far most are ignorant religious zealots and very often hypocrites.

 

[Obscurity]

Pro-life is a play on words, an emotional power play by theocrats and charlatans who want to force a woman to give birth in retribution for "poor behavior".

The entire movement is an abject fraud and a derelict throwback to monarchic rule.

The right to choose must be preserved. Women in this country will not stand for it, and, I, will stand with them, armed, against stately tyranny.

 

[Obscurity]

Because most Pro-Lifers are law-abiding citizens and try to work to change what they consider to be unjust laws.

They are charlatans and demagogues spending money to inject religious belief into legislation. Do not fool yourself into thinking this is not based in christian authoritarianism.

That presumes that all pro-life advocates divine their beliefs from Biblical scripture.

The anti-choice, pro birth movement began with the catholic church. I don't particularly give a **** about the individuals that compose the movement. I care about who pulls the strings. That and the evangelical movement after them.

The entire thing is rooted in christianity.

 

[Crusader13]

1) Other than voicing outrage against 'legal' abortions on a message board, what have you done, are doing, or will do in the future to help the unborns and after they are actually born, and 2), Is is just possible it is more appropriate to say you are more of a pro-birth supporter than a pro-life supporter ?

1) It's been reasonably established that religious/conservative people are more charitable than liberal/non-religious people. If not on an individual level, definitely on a systematic one. Christian churches are among the most charitable organizations in the world. So yeah, I'd say the pro-lifers are doing their part in supporting life after birth for the needy.

2) I don't think the pro-choice side is in any position to accuse pro-lifers of hiding behind euphemisms. The entire abortion movement is full of strategic wording which abortion clinics have admitted to using in order to ease the mental grief of mothers wanting an abortion. Calling the dismemberment of a child and then sucking out the puss 'pro-choice' is way more inaccurate.

 

[Crusader13]

Abortion is just another avenue for people to try to force their religion on others. That's all there is to it.

There's an extreme irony in accusing others of forcing their beliefs while simultaneously forcing a fetus to die for what you believe to be a woman's right. Don't force your belief onto a helpless fetus please.

As a wider response to the accusation that conservative/republicans don't care about life because they don't support welfare - this is a fallacy. Ending a human life and financially supporting a human life are not mutually exclusive. Do you need to be an animal-rights activists to be able to think that torturing dogs is wrong? No. You can absolutely despise dogs and still have a valid opinion that we should have laws against torturing them. Similarly, you don't have to be a feminist in order to think that abusing women is wrong. You can certainly be against abortion (ie, pro-life) even if you don't live up to some other arbitrary standards.

 

[Wayne Jr]

There's an extreme irony in accusing others of forcing their beliefs while simultaneously forcing a fetus to die for what you believe to be a woman's right.

I force mice and various insects found in my home to die as well. You seemed to think you had a point or something.

 

[Crusader13]

I force mice and various insects found in my home to die as well. You seemed to think you had a point or something.

Let's not compare rodents or insects to people please.

Choosing to end a human life because you believe it will make things easier for you is the paragon of forcing your beliefs onto others. You are forcing something to die in order to create a situation which benefits you. It's no different to radical Christians ending human lives in the 1600s in the name of what they believed. I condemn both.

 

[Logician Man]

1) It's been reasonably established that religious/conservative people are more charitable than liberal/non-religious people. If not on an individual level, definitely on a systematic one. Christian churches are among the most charitable organizations in the world. So yeah, I'd say the pro-lifers are doing their part in supporting life after birth for the needy.

2) I don't think the pro-choice side is in any position to accuse pro-lifers of hiding behind euphemisms. The entire abortion movement is full of strategic wording which abortion clinics have admitted to using in order to ease the mental grief of mothers wanting an abortion. Calling the dismemberment of a child and then sucking out the puss 'pro-choice' is way more inaccurate.

What you 'would say' and what you 'can prove' may be two very different things.

 

[Wayne Jr]

Let's not compare rodents or insects to people please.

Fetus are not people, either. See Roe v. Wade.

Rodents and insects are higher forms of life than feti, and I kill them. I served in the Army and killed actual born human beings, too.

I bet you joined this forum thinking you had some kind of point to make