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Pro-Life or Anti-choice?

Bodi

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idk man, death seems like a very serious thing.

idk how bad it was for you, but if you were really adopted, I would think you wouldn't treat death as some sort of get out of jail free card. You don't know what it's like on the other side. For all you know, it could be far worse there than in the physical world, only you can't rely on death to escape by that point.
I am not sure what you know about death that I don't... but when you are dead you are not thinking, "damn, being an orphan would have been better"
 

choiceone

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reminds me of an astute point by one of my friends with down syndrome. "why is my disease reason to have aborted me?"

so the way you ask this question makes me wonder what you mean by "undesirable", because when I say undesirable, I'm talking about genetic illnesses/defects in which there is no possible way for the baby to live. Like being only partially formed, missing a vital organ like a heart or stomach, or otherwise guaranteed to die within days, if not hours or even minutes of being born. These things are undesirable because why subject the baby to suffer and die within 2 days when you can just get it over with right then. Merely being minorly handicapped in some way is no reason to abort a fully functioning baby. Thankfully, technology allows us to see the difference, before the baby is born.

are you pro choice or anti-life?
Your friend has a very common problem, as you do. Both of you identify yourselves with your bodies completely, as if you yourselves exist and live solely as bodies and not minds. But suppose, if a woman ended a pregnancy with a problem fetus and then she got pregnant again but with a better fetal body and gave birth.

How do you know that the latter would not be your body? What makes you so sure that you would live and move and have your being only with the earlier fetal body? Since your mind would never have attained consciousness before the abortion, why should it not be okay to have the latter body?

If embryos or fetuses had conscious awareness, I could understand you, but because that would be impossible, I can't really grasp why you think it's terrible for the woman to decide to end a pregnancy and then try to make a better body for the future child.
 

choiceone

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Agreed. Rapists should be hung publicaly.
I hold no brief for rape, but most rapists are not trying to get a woman pregnant and don't force her to be.
Rather, the anti-abortion people want to force a pregnant woman to stay pregnant till they can get a baby out of her and so want to force her to have an embryo/fetus grow inside her body till it is so big she almost dies of it, and that's just a really bad rape that can injure her even more.
 

quip

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Ok, so between being raised in an adoption center or dead, what would you choose...
Why bother to ask us, we're biased? Go straight to the fetus and ask it. Get back with us with any or all discernable answers.
 

Gordy327

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Scotus already sides with us, what challenge is there to make?
No, the SCOTUS simply left it up to the states. If the Kansas vote is any indication, there is more resistance to abortion bans than some anticipated.
I guess it could be voted down if you just want second trimester abortions, but the left doesn't seem intent to stop there.
And the right seems to want to stop too short.
she's going to be fine.
How do you know? You don't know a woman's situation or why she wants/needs an abortion. You simply disregard the woman altogether.
yes, what a victim. Giving birth to a baby like any normal woman, with the privilege of 1st world healthcare.
She's still being forced, no matter how you try to justify it.
 

Scrabaholic

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idk man, death seems like a very serious thing.

It's a release.


idk how bad it was for you, but if you were really adopted, I would think you wouldn't treat death as some sort of get out of jail free card. You don't know what it's like on the other side. For all you know, it could be far worse there than in the physical world, only you can't rely on death to escape by that point.
I believe in Heaven.
 

DarkWizard12

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It's a release.
for some people yes. Life is also a gift.
I believe in Heaven.
You "believe" in heaven, but do you know, for sure, that's whats waiting for you(or anyone) on the other side?

I notice you have a positive view of death, despite never dying.

in any case, it's sick to force death on children.
 

Lursa

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for some people yes. Life is also a gift.

You "believe" in heaven, but do you know, for sure, that's whats waiting for you(or anyone) on the other side?

I notice you have a positive view of death, despite never dying.

Again, we dont share your view, there's no reason we should, and we dont care about yours...it's not the topic.

You are using it to avoid the topic. Perhaps you'd reconsider answering posts 21 & 25?

in any case, it's sick to force death on children.

Luckily, no one is forcing death on children.
 

Gordy327

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Gordy327

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Are you indeed pro-life or Anti-choice?
I have always been pro-choice and argued to that effect. But just to make things more interesting, I'll go a step further and advocate for "pro-abortion.."
 

quip

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I have always been pro-choice and argued to that effect. But just to make things more interesting, I'll go a step further and advocate for "pro-abortion.."
Ok.
Enough of the preamble.......
 

Scrabaholic

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for some people yes. Life is also a gift.

You "believe" in heaven, but do you know, for sure, that's whats waiting for you(or anyone) on the other side?

I notice you have a positive view of death, despite never dying.

I don't understand Christians who go to extremes to avoid death (ie cancer treatment when it's terminal). If you believe in Heaven being the place we're taught about, why don't you want to go there? When my brother comitted suicide, his Bible was found on the back of the toilet (the only place he read) open to a passage in Revelations talking about a "new city". He wasn't afraid to die.

in any case, it's sick to force death on children.
That is illegal and nobody here is advocating to make it legal.
 
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DarkWizard12

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I don't understand Christians who go to extremes to avoid death (ie cancer treatment when it's terminal). If you believe in Heaven being the place we're taught about, why don't you want to go there?
I'm jewish. The reason we don't is because suicide is murder of your own self, and for which there is little to no repentance if you succeed(if you're dead, it's too late to repent). Very little chance that one will find "peace on the other side" if he commits suicide in this religion.
When my brother comitted suicide, his Bible was found on the back of the toilet (the only place he read) open to a passage in Revelations talking about a "new city". He wasn't afraid to die.
Sad to hear. Can't speak for his situation, as i don't know the circumstances. Generally, it's not something I'd risk. In judaism, and in most christian sects, we are meant to die of natural causes, not our own volition.

the most lenient opinion i can think of on this matter, is if someone commits suicide due to "depression like King Solomon"(as I heard it said), he is judged less stringently....note, it's not "allowed", just less severe. Nothing something I would just do because I woke up on the wrong side of the bed one day.
 

quip

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I'm jewish. The reason we don't is because suicide is murder of your own self, and for which there is little to no repentance if you succeed(if you're dead, it's too late to repent). Very little chance that one will find "peace on the other side" if he commits suicide in this religion.

Sad to hear. Can't speak for his situation, as i don't know the circumstances. Generally, it's not something I'd risk. In judaism, and in most christian sects, we are meant to die of natural causes, not our own volition.

the most lenient opinion i can think of on this matter, is if someone commits suicide due to "depression like King Solomon"(as I heard it said), he is judged less stringently....note, it's not "allowed", just less severe. Nothing something I would just do because I woke up on the wrong side of the bed one day.
To Scrabs' point, if Heaven is such a grand place why subject the (undesired) unborn to the pain and trials of mortal existence? Let them remain in a heavenly state and greet them after your passing.
 

quip

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I have always been pro-choice and argued to that effect. But just to make things more interesting, I'll go a step further and advocate for "pro-abortion.."
I've been awaiting your response here, so I'll prod.
I've been arguing the pro-choice side for several years and in those years I've defended choicers against the typical pro-life rhetoric such as "pro-death" and Darkwiz's "death merchant". There is a fundamental difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion so I was wondering what you're considering "more interesting" by taking this a step "further" and claiming an advocate for pro-abortion?
 

Blue Dog

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Anti- choice is the epitome of tyranny. No one should be supporting forced gestation.
 

KevinKohler

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I am aware that people can "not desire" something for the most superficial and insane reasons, so that's simply not good enough. I need specifics that don't vary before i ever agree with pro-abortion death merchants.

death merchant.
You obviously want to be a cave man.

Cuz that's where bringing EVERY conception to birth will lead this world to. The stone age. We'll have to. We have food and water shortages NOW, with our current population density.

As population increases, resources become more strained, violence will increase. This is fact, not idle conjecture.

Ask China.
 

Gordy327

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I've been awaiting your response here, so I'll prod.
I've been arguing the pro-choice side for several years and in those years I've defended choicers against the typical pro-life rhetoric such as "pro-death" and Darkwiz's "death merchant". There is a fundamental difference between being pro-choice and pro-abortion so I was wondering what you're considering "more interesting" by taking this a step "further" and claiming an advocate for pro-abortion?
To be clear, I am and advocate a pro-choice position. That said, here is a more "pro-abortion" argument.
 

mac

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Let's assume that technology's got to the point where it becomes a practical, common practice in removing (undesired) newly conceived zygotes from the mother's body which continue its gestation independent of the requirement of a womb. Abortion (Birth itself) would change as we know it.

Would the political right be ok with this new, deathless version of abortion or would there still be a need to punish women for coping out of her maternal responsibilities?

Are you indeed pro-life or Anti-choice?
I would be.
 

DarkWizard12

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You obviously want to be a cave man.

Cuz that's where bringing EVERY conception to birth will lead this world to. The stone age. We'll have to. We have food and water shortages NOW, with our current population density.

As population increases, resources become more strained, violence will increase. This is fact, not idle conjecture.

Ask China.
lol

 

quip

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To be clear, I am and advocate a pro-choice position. That said, here is a more "pro-abortion" argument.
Ok I get it. Your providing talking points as to how abortion can be a positive.
Yet, lifers' enjoy using the term pejoratively.
Me thinks you're giving them too much (intellectual) credit here.
 

quip

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I would be.
You'd be willing to accept such an abortion scenario? Great, that's the first honest answer yet.
Any pro-lifers have the guts to disagree.
 

Lursa

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You'd be willing to accept such an abortion scenario? Great, that's the first honest answer yet.
Any pro-lifers have the guts to disagree.

It does fit the description of an abortion, which is the termination of a pregnancy.

OTOH, the woman's consent would still be required.
 
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