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Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432:673:895]

Dragonfly

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I make my choices for me and/or my family. I do what I think is best.

You make your choices for you and/or your family. You do what you think is best.

I won't make your choices for you, and in return you won't make my choices for me.

It's that simple.

Works for religion, pregnancy, sex, marriage, marijuana....

Should there be a magical sky-fairy with a long white beard and busty little angels floating around him playing harps....we'll both have nobody else to answer for except ourselves.
Our actions and motivations will be our own.
 

Josie

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

Actually it's not as simple as choosing a paint color or which piano teacher to go to.

The fetus is a member of your family who you're choosing to kill. The fetus is a member of your family who you've decided that you just don't want to deal with. The fetus is a member of your family who you've decided shouldn't have the opportunity to grow up. The fetus is a member of your family whose life is nothing to you. The fetus is a member of your family who you tell yourself is a just a blob of cells to make yourself feel better about killing him/her.

You're snuffing out the life of a member of your family. Why? It's selfish. It's cruel. It's disgusting. And it should be criminal.
 

year2late

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

Interestingly enough, most prochoice women would never choose abortion.

No - is a choice.
 

lizzie

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

I make my choices for me and/or my family. I do what I think is best.

You make your choices for you and/or your family. You do what you think is best.

I won't make your choices for you, and in return you won't make my choices for me.

It's that simple.

Works for religion, pregnancy, sex, marriage, marijuana....

Should there be a magical sky-fairy with a long white beard and busty little angels floating around him playing harps....we'll both have nobody else to answer for except ourselves.
Our actions and motivations will be our own.

You know, I generally tend to agree with you, then you just seem compelled to add in the little religious dig at the end, as an insult to people who oppose abortion based on their religious beliefs. I do support choice, and I do believe abortion is morally wrong. I would never want to have an abortion, but that doesn't mean I expect other people to live up to my standards. Your post would have come across as much more agreeable if you had just left out the insults, because the main point is very well-reasoned. Sometimes, I just can't figure out the opposition to just having a discussion without all the insults and rhetoric from both sides.
 

WCH

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

Interestingly enough, most prochoice women would never choose abortion.

No - is a choice.

You mean an 'option' like "will I have a potato with that steak or a salad?"

I think it's a good thing to say no to abortion.
 

KevinKohler

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

It's not that simple. I'm pro choice, and I'm telling you, it's not simple at all. Never was, likely never will be. Leaving religion out, which further complicates things, the legal aspect is harsh.

Why am I pro choice? Do I not believe that abortion is murder? That taking a human life without his/her consent is wrong? I agree it's wrong. I also think it's wrong to tell me what sorta car I should drive in order to preserve our environment. I believe it's wrong to forcibly take money from me to pay for services, some of which I may or may not use.

In short? There's a lot of what I believe to be necessary evils out there, and abortion is one of them. I would prefer that it never be necessary. I would also like unicorns to graze in my back yard.


Simple?


Not at all.

Just because I accept this as being necessary, is by no means a requirement for all. Hell, I hope that I never have to cast a vote concerning this. Because I see the other side so well, it hurts.

But so does paying taxes.
 

jamesrage

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

You know, I generally tend to agree with you, then you just seem compelled to add in the little religious dig at the end, as an insult to people who oppose abortion based on their religious beliefs. I do support choice, and I do believe abortion is morally wrong. I would never want to have an abortion, but that doesn't mean I expect other people to live up to my standards. Your post would have come across as much more agreeable if you had just left out the insults, because the main point is very well-reasoned. Sometimes, I just can't figure out the opposition to just having a discussion without all the insults and rhetoric from both sides.
Why do you believe abortion is morally wrong?
 

year2late

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

You mean an 'option' like "will I have a potato with that steak or a salad?"

I think it's a good thing to say no to abortion.

As do I.

My choice. My body.
 

jamesrage

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

Because I believe a fetus is a human being.

But not enough of a human being to deserve legal protection?
 

KevinKohler

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

Because I believe a fetus is a human being.

And thus, the legal argument. From this standpoint, at best, abortion is manslaughter.
 

sangha

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

Actually it's not as simple as choosing a paint color or which piano teacher to go to.

Sometimes it is that simple. Maybe not for you, but no one is forcing you to get an abortion


The fetus is a member of your family who you're choosing to kill. The fetus is a member of your family who you've decided that you just don't want to deal with. The fetus is a member of your family who you've decided shouldn't have the opportunity to grow up. The fetus is a member of your family whose life is nothing to you. The fetus is a member of your family who you tell yourself is a just a blob of cells to make yourself feel better about killing him/her.

You're snuffing out the life of a member of your family. Why? It's selfish. It's cruel. It's disgusting. And it should be criminal.

None of that is true. It's just stuff you tell yourself to make yourself feel better about wanting to endanger the lives of other people
 

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

But not enough of a human being to deserve legal protection?

In that situation, where there is mother and baby, one must take precedence over the other. Since it's the mother's body that created the baby, it is the mother who gets to make the choice. I don't like it that this choice is necessary, but it is, and I don't have to answer for what I believe is a morally wrong choice- she does.
 

KevinKohler

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

In that situation, where there is mother and baby, one must take precedence over the other. Since it's the mother's body that created the baby, it is the mother who gets to make the choice. I don't like it that this choice is necessary, but it is, and I don't have to answer for what I believe is a morally wrong choice- she does.

My position exactly, and why I hope I never have to cast a vote on this matter.
 

jamesrage

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

In that situation, where there is mother and baby, one must take precedence over the other. Since it's the mother's body that created the baby, it is the mother who gets to make the choice. I don't like it that this choice is necessary, but it is, and I don't have to answer for what I believe is a morally wrong choice- she does.
So if a mother is about 6 months pregnant and she wants to kill her child then she should have that choice?
 

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

So if a mother is about 6 months pregnant and she wants to kill her child then she should have that choice?

I don't personally support late term abortion, or anything past 20 weeks, but it's a legal issue, and the laws have been passed.
 

jamesrage

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

I don't personally support late term abortion, or anything past 20 weeks, but it's a legal issue, and the laws have been passed.
So if no laws were in place you would be alright with it being legal for a 8 month 3 week old baby in the womb to be aborted?
 

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

So if no laws were in place you would be alright with it being legal for a 8 month 3 week old baby in the womb to be aborted?

I guess you didn't read my post very well.
 

Paschendale

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

And thus, the legal argument. From this standpoint, at best, abortion is manslaughter.

The best legal analogy is self defense against assault. Or would you divest yourself of the right to resist someone who was taking your blood and energy, compromising your immune system, and occupying space in your body without your consent? Even if they'll die if you don't, does their need really create a duty in you to risk yourself and sacrifice that much? Does a parent even HAVE to do that for their child? Forced transfusions against their will?
 

KevinKohler

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

The best legal analogy is self defense against assault. Or would you divest yourself of the right to resist someone who was taking your blood and energy, compromising your immune system, and occupying space in your body without your consent? Even if they'll die if you don't, does their need really create a duty in you to risk yourself and sacrifice that much? Does a parent even HAVE to do that for their child? Forced transfusions against their will?

Self defense against assault does (or at least SHOULDNT) hold up if the victim created a situation in which such assault was inevitable in the first place. (See George Zimmerman)
 

Lursa

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

That would be nice OP but there are people *that choose* to believe that the unborn have rights making them equal with the born.

I have yet to seem them justify the harm and gross infringement this would impose on the born without just saying pregnant women 'asked for it.'

If I saw a valid argument along those lines, I'd consider them.
 
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Paschendale

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

Self defense against assault does (or at least SHOULDNT) hold up if the victim created a situation in which such assault was inevitable in the first place. (See George Zimmerman)

They have to have knowingly or intentionally done so, and since it inevitably comes up, any individual act of sex cannot be interpreted as intention to create a pregnancy. A single act of sex during peak ovulation has about a 20% chance of conception. A single act during other times has around a 5% chance. These are for unprotected sex. Birth control measures like the pill are 99% effective, while condom use is between 70%-98% effective (let's call it an average of 85% for easier math), depending on proper use. That means that a random sex encounter with a non-ovulating female and both partners using birth control has around a .0075% chance of conception. It's down to .001% if they use the condom perfectly, and all the way up to .0375% if she is ovulating. An individual act of sex, with use of contraception, has only a one in several thousand chance of causing a pregnancy. But since millions of couples have sex every day, there are lots of one in several thousands.

We cannot possibly assign intent and consent based on such low numbers. Especially for someone using any form of birth control, manifesting an intent not to conceive. The odds of conception from an act of sex with birth control could be likened to being assaulted in a dangerous neighborhood. We certainly don't infer intent from simply walking down a street at night. And we certainly don't infer it from walking down a street at night more than once, such as if someone has to do so for work, so the notion that a lifestyle that includes frequent sex cannot really be used to infer intent.

The only way that someone can really be legally responsible for a pregnancy is if they intend to conceive. So, the notion that sex invalidates self-defense due to creating the situation is interesting, but ultimately too weak to create a legal holding.
 

WCH

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

But not enough of a human being to deserve legal protection?

How about the protection from it's parents? It took two people to create that life and it deserves love and respect from both.
 

SmokeAndMirrors

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re: Pro-Choice - It's Just This Simple[W:432]

It's not that simple. I'm pro choice, and I'm telling you, it's not simple at all. Never was, likely never will be. Leaving religion out, which further complicates things, the legal aspect is harsh.

Why am I pro choice? Do I not believe that abortion is murder? That taking a human life without his/her consent is wrong? I agree it's wrong. I also think it's wrong to tell me what sorta car I should drive in order to preserve our environment. I believe it's wrong to forcibly take money from me to pay for services, some of which I may or may not use.

In short? There's a lot of what I believe to be necessary evils out there, and abortion is one of them. I would prefer that it never be necessary. I would also like unicorns to graze in my back yard.


Simple?


Not at all.

Just because I accept this as being necessary, is by no means a requirement for all. Hell, I hope that I never have to cast a vote concerning this. Because I see the other side so well, it hurts.

But so does paying taxes.

Not everyone thinks it's difficult. Not everyone views it as "evil," necessary or otherwise. For some women, it's a very clear and uncomplicated choice.

I think everyone would prefer it were unnecessary. Even if one has no internal conflict about it, it's unpleasant and expensive. It's not how anyone prefers to spend an afternoon, or what might amount to the cost of their rent. That's why the pro-choice crowd also tends to be the crowd trying to increase contraceptive use, and disseminate correct information about how to use it effectively.

But not everyone thinks a woman preserving her bodily integrity is "manslaughter."
 
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