Pro-Abortion, no different than Pro-Slavery

[BDBoop]

"Well, I'm not talking about a shell. I'm talking about someone who might recover"

As are you.

I believe that is more an argument for a thread about euthanasia.

 

[mac]

Alright, so you are pretty much saying life starts at conception. Technologically, you're right. At conception a new cell is created out of two old and pre-existing cell. A zygote is a cell, a cell is alive, and that is simple biology. The problem is, no one in our society fights for cell's right. We don't consider killing a cell immoral or bad. We place different value on different life forms, mostly going by their intelligence. We swat a fly because killing a bug isn't murder. No one in protesting and rioting over the sale of bug spray. Once we get into being with higher intelligence, such as cats, dogs, horses, cows, monkeys, and apes, then we see protest to them being treated inhumanely. There is a direct correlation between the value of life we give an organism, and it's intelligence, with several exceptions. I am not speaking for myself so much as general society, so don't bring in mentally handicapped people into this. I don't make our society's general feelings about the importance of life.

Now, I'm applying this to abortion. A fetus within the first trimester doesn't have significant brain activity. Granted, it's no longer just a cell, but it's not an intelligent being either. It's somewhere in the middle. Around the area of a sea slug. As mentioned before, no one cares about the death of a sea slug. I imagine that you'll go back to that it'll grow into a full being. The problem is, it's not now. We can get a lot of things to grow into human beings, but we don't.

And in regards to condoms Vs. abortions, by point was I don't consider a sperm/egg cell to be anymore human than a zygote. Thus, to kill a sperm cell is no more morally wrong to me than to kill a zygote.

Do you rely on science and scientists to define everything that is right or wrong? Cell is a cell except where it is the first cell in an organism, as soon as cells begin dividing and replicating it's now a life. Any one stage of that development is part of the same life. Terminating human development in any stage is no more or less killing than in any other stage. Arguing over the point in that development when it becomes a person is only necessary to establish a point where killing it is morally acceptable. That is the only reason to attempt to define personhood as beginning at a later date. To be perfectly honest, it's an irrelevant concept, abortion ends human life.

 

[mac]

"Well, I'm not talking about a shell. I'm talking about someone who might recover"

As are you.

Out of curiosity, is English your first language?

 

[Arcana XV]

Well, I'm not talking about a shell. I'm talking about someone who might recover.

And I'm saying if the chance of recovery is minimal, the family should decide what to do.

 

[mac]

And I'm saying if the chance of recovery is minimal, the family should decide what to do.

That to me is what is callous. If recovery is possible, it should be no ones decision to make.

 

[Arcana XV]

That to me is what is callous. If recovery is possible, it should be no ones decision to make.

It's not that simple. Nothing is ever that simple when it comes to life and death. There are many variables involved. How high are the chances of recovery? How high is the risk of irreparable brain damage in case of recovery? What kind of life will the person be living? Would he or she have wanted to be kept alive under these conditions? You can't just have a one size fits all solution. Sometimes life is NOT a blessing. It just isn't.

 

[ashley.hunt60]

Do you rely on science and scientists to define everything that is right or wrong?

I completely and utterly rely on science to find truth. I use my philosophy to evaluate the truth to bring me my morals. So, kinda, yeah, I do science to define what is right and wrong.

Cell is a cell except where it is the first cell in an organism, as soon as cells begin dividing and replicating it's now a life.

They've taken human skin cells and grown them in petri dishes. Cells dividing and replicating, but I don't think you would consider a slab of skin a life. What I consider makes a clump of cells a new life(I'll use your definition of life for now) is a decently devolved system. A system of importance, a neurological system, in my opinion.

Any one stage of that development is part of the same life. Terminating human development in any stage is no more or less killing than in any other stage. Arguing over the point in that development when it becomes a person is only necessary to establish a point where killing it is morally acceptable. That is the only reason to attempt to define personhood as beginning at a later date. To be perfectly honest, it's an irrelevant concept, abortion ends human life.

Abortion ends a human life because abortion ends a human life, right? It seems like you've already decided life starts at conception, on what bases I have no clue, but you don't seem too willing to review that. I argue that because a fetus is so early in development, that it's on it's way to be human, but it's not human. Do you honestly see no moral difference between a zygote that fails to attach the uterus wall and goes during the menstrual cycle and a fully grown human being, with people who know him, love him, and care for him, dying?

 

[BDBoop]

Yes, it is.

You can't choose to discuss euthanasia until somebody calls you on it, then claim this is not the thread for that.

Out of curiosity, is English your first language?

 

[mac]

Yes, it is.

You can't choose to discuss euthanasia until somebody calls you on it, then claim this is not the thread for that.

I wasn't really discussing euthanasia....I was discussing brain activity.

 

[mac]

I completely and utterly rely on science to find truth. I use my philosophy to evaluate the truth to bring me my morals. So, kinda, yeah, I do science to define what is right and wrong.


They've taken human skin cells and grown them in petri dishes. Cells dividing and replicating, but I don't think you would consider a slab of skin a life. What I consider makes a clump of cells a new life(I'll use your definition of life for now) is a decently devolved system. A system of importance, a neurological system, in my opinion.



Abortion ends a human life because abortion ends a human life, right? It seems like you've already decided life starts at conception, on what bases I have no clue, but you don't seem too willing to review that. I argue that because a fetus is so early in development, that it's on it's way to be human, but it's not human. Do you honestly see no moral difference between a zygote that fails to attach the uterus wall and goes during the menstrual cycle and a fully grown human being, with people who know him, love him, and care for him, dying?

If you find someone who has no friends or living family and kill him, would it still be murder?

 

[ashley.hunt60]

If you find someone who has no friends or living family and kill him, would it still be murder?

He would still be self-aware. Intelligent and aware. This is the biggest difference between a full human and a fetus.

 

[thatguymd]

There is a direct correlation between the value of life we give an organism, and it's intelligence, with several exceptions. I am not speaking for myself so much as general society, so don't bring in mentally handicapped people into this. I don't make our society's general feelings about the importance of life.

Interesting. You bring up society’s general feelings about how bad they feel killing something to demonstrate a direct correlation between intelligence and how bad we feel killing something. You do note there are several exceptions but then attempt to ban discussion about those exceptions.

If you aren’t willing to discuss the ways in which society’s general feelings don’t support an intelligence standard of when it is moral to kill something, then don’t use it to support your argument in the first place.

The only real correlation between how bad people feel is how well they personally relate to the life. If someone just came back from vacation, do you think they’d feel worse if they found out their dog died or 2 people died in a blast in Iraq?

Barring our own personal knowledge, we tend to go with other humans before any animal (the mentally handicapped exception you noted) and then order animals by intelligence because we view higher intelligence as being closer to human. This seems to not be much different than personal knowledge because we just tend to feel worse the more we have in common with that life.

All it would take for people to feel worse about a ZEF’s death would be for it to grow on a transparent sac on the outside of the mother. Then it becomes more personal.

If it was only intelligence that dictated society’s general feelings than we should feel worse about killing humans the older they get but the reverse seems to be true. We actually seem to feel worse the younger they are, at least until they are inside their mom.

 

[rivrrat]

All it would take for people to feel worse about a ZEF’s death would be for it to grow on a transparent sac on the outside of the mother. Then it becomes more personal.

No, that really wouldn't make any difference at all except for possibly in the other direction. It would be so ****ing tiny and unrecongnizable, no one would be able to associate with it.

If it was only intelligence that dictated society’s general feelings than we should feel worse about killing humans the older they get but the reverse seems to be true. We actually seem to feel worse the younger they are, at least until they are inside their mom.

Has nothing to do with intelligence and entirely to do with sentience, sapience, cognicience, and conscience. Qualities that a first trimester ZEF cannot physically have.

 

[thatguymd]

No, that really wouldn't make any difference at all except for possibly in the other direction. It would be so ****ing tiny and unrecongnizable, no one would be able to associate with it.

A ZEF is unrecognizable until its brain is developed enough? The point still holds that how bad you feel doesn’t correlate with intelligence.

Has nothing to do with intelligence and entirely to do with sentience, sapience, cognicience, and conscience. Qualities that a first trimester ZEF cannot physically have.

Did you see the post I quoted? It said a direct correlation with intelligence.

The whole post was to demonstrate society’s general feeling about how bad it is to kill something does not directly correlate with intelligence. Do you believe that changing intelligence to “sentience, sapience, cognicience, and conscience” will correlate more closely than how we personally relate? Not to mention if you use multiple terms for the correlation it would need a formula to determine overall value so we can see if it correlates (e.g. a weight for each term).

 

[rivrrat]

A ZEF is unrecognizable until its brain is developed enough?

Even after that it's fairly unrecognizable as a member of the human species. We've had members show images of cat fetuses here that people thought were human. That's how unrecognizable they are. Of course, at a certain point they do become recognizable, but that has little to do with their cerebral cortex (which is what makes them capable of being a person)

The point still holds that how bad you feel doesn’t correlate with intelligence.

Nothing about abortion has anything to do with intelligence, really. It's much more than that.

Do you believe that changing intelligence to “sentience, sapience, cognicience, and conscience” will correlate more closely than how we personally relate?

Yes, because intelligence is far too simplistic a qualifier.

Not to mention if you use multiple terms for the correlation it would need a formula to determine overall value so we can see if it correlates (e.g. a weight for each term).

No forumla required. Just the physical components necessary for all of those things. Physical components that a first trimester fetus lacks.

 

[thatguymd]

Even after that it's fairly unrecognizable as a member of the human species. We've had members show images of cat fetuses here that people thought were human. That's how unrecognizable they are. Of course, at a certain point they do become recognizable, but that has little to do with their cerebral cortex (which is what makes them capable of being a person)

Um….have you see pictures of human fetuses? You don’t think it is recognizable until after their brain is developed enough to be a person in your view? It appears quite recognizable especially towards the end of the first trimester. Do you have a link to the thread you are talking about?

None of that changes the fact that seeing something makes it more personal and harder to kill - even if it was a cat. So again, how well you personally relate is all that matters. Even in the very earliest stages when it is completely unrecognizable, you have the context of what it is and can watch it grow. And for sure, if it grew on the outside, people would have the familiarity enough to recognize it much earlier than they do now.

Nothing about abortion has anything to do with intelligence, really. It's much more than that.

That’s fine. We can drop intelligence. Again, that wasn’t my choice of wording.

Yes, because intelligence is far too simplistic a qualifier.

Okay. It is better to replace intelligence with your terms. I got it.

But the other part of the question was if you change to “sentience, sapience, cognicience, and conscience”, do you believe that correlates better to how bad society feels about killing something than how they personally relate. I gave some reasons why it correlates to personal relation. If you feel it correlates more to your terms, give some reasons or at least refute my reasons.

No forumla required. Just the physical components necessary for all of those things. Physical components that a first trimester fetus lacks.

This makes no sense. If it is the physical components necessary for all those things and not even demonstrating them to degrees – then you either have it or you don’t. So for this to correlate with how bad society generally feels killing something, they would either have to feel bad or not. Since that is obviously not true, there is no correlation.

I’m thinking you don’t want to discuss society’s general feeling on killing things at all. Hopefully I’m wrong on that because that was the topic of the post and it wouldn’t make sense to respond to it if you didn’t want to talk about it.

 

[BDBoop]

Of course it does. And what are its chances for survival should it be born at that point. "Slim to none", I say. And I'm right. At that point, they call it a miscarriage. Not a still birth.

Um….have you see pictures of human fetuses? You don’t think it is recognizable until after their brain is developed enough to be a person in your view? It appears quite recognizable especially towards the end of the first trimester.

 

[thatguymd]

Of course it does. And what are its chances for survival should it be born at that point. "Slim to none", I say. And I'm right. At that point, they call it a miscarriage. Not a still birth.

Perhaps you didn’t look at my previous posts for context. I entered the conversion to show that society’s general feelings on how bad it is to kill something correlates with society’s personal relation to the life being killed rather then the intelligence of the life being killed.

The ability to recognize a fetus came up because that ability would increase the ability to relate personally with the fetus. Chances of survival and whether it is called miscarriage or still birth are both irrelevant to refute the point. If you believe they are relevant, you will need more explanation.

 

[SheWolf]

My step-mother (30 year OB-GYN Nurse) is a huge fan of Depo, and demands we put my Daughter on such the moment she hits puberty. I happen to aggree with that 100%.

OMG

I cannot believe that you would put your daughter on depo so young. My niece is going through puberty and she is 9 years old! And you obviously don't think your daughter should have a say in the matter. Seriously. I find that absolutely disgusting.

And depo has a lot of serious side effects like heavy bleeding that can last for months, and shedding of the uterus lining. Two of my friends were on it and both had serious side effects.

A young girl who's body is going through puberty isn't going to easily recognise the deop from her natural hormones..

 

[Bodi]

the mother or the child?

The idea of justifying the killing an unborn baby in order to protect some mysterious "rights" of the mother will never cease to astound me... and make me a bit sad at the same time.

 

[SheWolf]

Originally Posted by liblady
does your daughter get a say?

.... she's a minor. No, no she does not.

What are you going to do when she rebels, because I totally see it coming..

 

[SheWolf]

*sigh* Follow the conversation, please.

We're talking about people who choose to remain abstinent. They choose this for various reasons and they're very adament about that belief (like myself). When things get hot with a boyfriend, the weak-willed person who says she wants to remain abstinent will just give in because it feels good. The strong-willed person will hold back because they're beliefs override their need for physical pleasure.

You see?

It helps if you're partner is abstinent also...

A lot of young girls don't give in because it feels good.. because it doesn't feel good to young girls. They usually give it up, because they think they are in love.. and they're often pressured or being emotionally manipulated by the boyfriend.. I have also seen girls pressured by their girlfriends to "do it too. I do it.. and it's not a big deal."

IDK.. I think some of those girls wanted attention or love. I was an outside observer to it, so I am not speaking about my younger self.

But I don't think you can say they are weak and you are strong, if you haven't been in their shoes.

 

[SheWolf]

Slavery was legal for a very long time.

Slavery is illegal but America still engages in it..

 

[Josie]

Slavery is illegal but America still engages in it..

How so?.....

 

[OscarB63]

How so?.....

oh God please don't ask....we'll get some long ass, liberal diatribe about how the evil greedy rich bastards enslave the poor innocent working class. :2bigcry: