Privatization of Libraries

[Aunt Spiker]

Are you trying to say that libraries are socialist?

*gasp* the 9 letter word, *********!!

The origin of libraries and free education isn't socialist - it actually predates 'socialism' as a political theory and ideology.

Most libraries that are "old" were likely funded with land-grants put out by the Government when they started to loosen up their purse strings.
The grants were requested and awarded to the state - the state decided what to do *or* agreed to various terms or 'mandates' that the government set up.

Just like with our failing roadway system and so forth - the government booted the bill to fund it all, but has really let down the follow-up to keep their initial string-investment running. Actually, the reason for this lack of government 'involvement' is because it's not up to the federal government to maintain - but that is up to the states to maintain.

 

[Hoplite]

So - without libraries in small towns civilization, advancement and technology would set to 0?

Without libraries in general, the advance of human knowledge and understanding would be greatly diminished.

 

[LizardofOz]

I'm going to have to agree with Hoplite. Another service my library offers is computer education classes for adults, as pointing them in the right direction on using computers to help find jobs and such.

What is so interesting about the turtle guy's point is in Cincinnati, OH Mayor Mallory and the city council made the tough decision to cut some of the police force down, continue funding the public library more, and the past 20 years Cincinnati's crime rate is lower than ever with fewer incidents and murders than ever before. If the library wasn't there, there is no doubt Cincinnati would be an even bigger ****hole than it already is.

 

[TurtleDude]

Are you trying to say that libraries are socialist?

are you a purveyor of straw?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Without libraries in general, the advance of human knowledge and understanding would be greatly diminished.

We still have public education.
We'd still have libraries - but, sure, the one in my small town would likely be closed.

I'm actually all for publicizing school-libraries - afterschool and weekend hours (not during the school day when students are present - for safety) - if push comes to shove.

But eduation is always free (schooling) . . . and if someone wants to learn - they can.

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm going to have to agree with Hoplite. Another service my library offers is computer education classes for adults, as pointing them in the right direction on using computers to help find jobs and such.

What is so interesting about the turtle guy's point is in Cincinnati, OH Mayor Mallory and the city council made the tough decision to cut some of the police force down, continue funding the public library more, and the past 20 years Cincinnati's crime rate is lower than ever with fewer incidents and murders than ever before. If the library wasn't there, there is no doubt Cincinnati would be an even bigger ****hole than it already is.

Cincinnati is a pit these days

most of us republicans moved out of town meaning most of the voters left are dems. and the library is never cited as a draw for downtown cincinnati. BTW that XXXXhole has been run by DEMS for decades.

Your rants about crime is complete BS

 

[LizardofOz]

Cincinnati is a pit these days

most of us republicans moved out of town meaning most of the voters left are dems. and the library is never cited as a draw for downtown cincinnati. BTW that XXXXhole has been run by DEMS for decades.

Your rants about crime is complete BS

Cincinnati has been getting much better. Vine Street actually isn't all that bad at all, the library just got expanded upon, and much more. Of course the Republicans don't live there, they don't live in low income housing they live around the outskirts in the rich white neighborhoods with equal amounts of rich white democrats.

Also of course the library isn't a draw for people, but it helps the communities out a great deal. People don't go to Cincinnati to see the library they go to see the Bengals crap out and the Reds get beat by the Cubs.

 

[TurtleDude]

Cincinnati has been getting much better. Vine Street actually isn't all that bad at all, the library just got expanded upon, and much more. Of course the Republicans don't live there, they don't live in low income housing they live around the outskirts in the rich white neighborhoods with equal amounts of rich white democrats.

Also of course the library isn't a draw for people, but it helps the communities out a great deal. People don't go to Cincinnati to see the library they go to see the Bengals crap out and the Reds get beat by the Cubs.

really? the reds just beat up the cubs

I guess you missed the bit about Over the Rhine being rated the most dangerous area in the USA

for someone living in a satellite of Cincinnati you don't have much room to talk

remind me how many professional teams there are in all of KY

 

[Hoplite]

We still have public education.
We'd still have libraries - but, sure, the one in my small town would likely be closed.

I'm actually all for publicizing school-libraries - afterschool and weekend hours (not during the school day when students are present - for safety) - if push comes to shove.

But eduation is always free (schooling) . . . and if someone wants to learn - they can.

Public libraries work in tandem with public education.

They make each other more effective.

 

[LizardofOz]

really? the reds just beat up the cubs

I guess you missed the bit about Over the Rhine being rated the most dangerous area in the USA

for someone living in a satellite of Cincinnati you don't have much room to talk

remind me how many professional teams there are in all of KY

What are you talking about? Cubs won 3-2.

Also I would rather have one of the top NCAA teams than 5 of the crappiest pro teams in the nation.

The study about the Rhine you are talking about also singles out specific parts whereas in other cities it takes entire areas as a whole. Here is real numbers:

I won't deny the Rhine sucks at night, but it has gotten a lot better of the past 10 years.

 

[Mensch]

Oh - so if you *see* no crime then you *have* no crime?

While I love libraries and visit them frequently - I favor my safety and security more than free books.

What is this "see no crime, hear no crime" nonsense? I simply quoted a very simple point made by an ancient Chinese philosopher.

You're safety and security should always be protected, be that as it may, your security does not depend on hiring extra cops to bust people smoking, eating, injecting or snorting dope. Our entire prison system is filled with people imprisoned by these laws, to some degree.

The fundamental purpose of the public library is to maintain important records and literature, while providing the information to the public.

 

[dragos85]

To be completely realistic i doubt you could name 1 thing the the government does better then the private sector and if you think you can go back and do more research because youre probably wrong.

the main divider between fed and private jobs the fed can mess up all they want you cant go to someone else theres only one fed with the private sector if you mess it up theres always the competition.

 

[PeteEU]

To be completely realistic i doubt you could name 1 thing the the government does better then the private sector and if you think you can go back and do more research because youre probably wrong.

the main divider between fed and private jobs the fed can mess up all they want you cant go to someone else theres only one fed with the private sector if you mess it up theres always the competition.

Yea it is so easy to go from one cable tv company to another.. or medical insurance in certain US states.. or once Walmart has destroyed the local economy driving all other shops out of business... yea.. private competition is so much better if left alone and allowed to infest the political establishment so that laws are made to suit them and not the consumer.. yea...

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

So - without libraries in small towns civilization, advancement and technology would set to 0?

It's not like we're picking in Cuneiform these days.

That's not at all what I said, and I think you know that.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

The private sector withoug competition is no better then the public sector without competition especially when doing work contracted for the government

The profit motive alone does not increase efficiency, efficiency is the result of competition pushing for improvements in business practices to increase the amount of sales and profit the company can get. The various defense industry companies are far less efficient today with the drastically reduced number of business then they were in the past when you had far more large companies competing for contracts.

With a public libary that is going to be run by a private company with government funds it is not automatically improve service, reduce costs then what the government could have done. Unless the various libaries are going to be put up for bid individually with contracts renewed every few years open for compititve bids from other companies the existing ones have no motive to improve, they can just stagnat and collect government money while allowing service to drop

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Most libraries that are "old" were likely funded with land-grants put out by the Government when they started to loosen up their purse strings.
The grants were requested and awarded to the state - the state decided what to do *or* agreed to various terms or 'mandates' that the government set up.

Just like with our failing roadway system and so forth - the government booted the bill to fund it all, but has really let down the follow-up to keep their initial string-investment running. Actually, the reason for this lack of government 'involvement' is because it's not up to the federal government to maintain - but that is up to the states to maintain.

"Were probably?" So this entire passage is supposition?

The Wadsworth Library in Geneseo, one of the first (I want to say the second) free public libraries in the country, was essentially founded by a rich dude that felt that knowledge shouldn't be the purview of those who could afford to buy it. He owned the land, he built the library, he assembled the collection, and he made it available to everybody.

Then he lobbied for state-level funding for public libraries.

 

[MaggieD]

The private sector withoug competition is no better then the public sector without competition especially when doing work contracted for the government

The profit motive alone does not increase efficiency, efficiency is the result of competition pushing for improvements in business practices to increase the amount of sales and profit the company can get. The various defense industry companies are far less efficient today with the drastically reduced number of business then they were in the past when you had far more large companies competing for contracts.

With a public libary that is going to be run by a private company with government funds it is not automatically improve service, reduce costs then what the government could have done. Unless the various libaries are going to be put up for bid individually with contracts renewed every few years open for compititve bids from other companies the existing ones have no motive to improve, they can just stagnat and collect government money while allowing service to drop

Any program the government runs can be run more efficiently and with greater cost effectiveness by private enterprise. Profit is a great motivator.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Yes but without competition profit can be raised by lowering service levels for the same price, or by increasing fee's while not increasing services. They dont have to become more efficient to increase profits. Only through competition would efficiency be improved in order to increase profits.

 

[The Uncola]

To be completely realistic i doubt you could name 1 thing the the government does better then the private sector....

Fail

Administrative overhead for Medicare and Medicaid runs about 3%. "Private" insurance runs ten times that.

the main divider between fed and private jobs the fed can mess up all they want you cant go to someone else theres only one fed with the private sector if you mess it up theres always the competition.

Fail

We can vote public officials out of office when they don't do the right thing, "private industry" just gives them huge bonuses and more perks.

 

[MaggieD]

Yes but without competition profit can be raised by lowering service levels for the same price, or by increasing fee's while not increasing services. They dont have to become more efficient to increase profits. Only through competition would efficiency be improved in order to increase profits.

Why would you assume there would be no competition? That's a pretty lame argument. But, actually, as I think about it, your argument makes the perfect case for why the government can't run it efficiently. Where's the competition there?

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Why would you assume there would be no competition? That's a pretty lame argument. But, actually, as I think about it, your argument makes the perfect case for why the government can't run it efficiently. Where's the competition there?

How many companies are involved in running libaries under contract from a local government?

How many different firms will be running the different libaries for this city, in order for the government to evaluate the different values the individual companies provide?

What I am saying is that a private business running a libary is not likely to be any better at it then would a government run libary. The private business would only be better with competition driving the company to become more efficient.

 

[MaggieD]

How many companies are involved in running libaries under contract from a local government?

How many different firms will be running the different libaries for this city, in order for the government to evaluate the different values the individual companies provide?

What I am saying is that a private business running a libary is not likely to be any better at it then would a government run libary. The private business would only be better with competition driving the company to become more efficient.

What I'm saying is that a private business is likely to be better at it than the government. If there is a profit to be made, there will be competition. You are assuming no competition. I'm fairly certain your assumption is incorrect. (Perhaps in this one first-out-of-the-box instance there is none, but there will be.)

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Really?

So how come there hasn't been a wave of competing libraries all over the nation?

There's no law preventing the establishment of private libraries, and I'm sure there are lots of places that don't have one.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

What I'm saying is that a private business is likely to be better at it than the government. If there is a profit to be made, there will be competition. You are assuming no competition. I'm fairly certain your assumption is incorrect. (Perhaps in this one first-out-of-the-box instance there is none, but there will be.)

I am assuming their will not be effective competition, which in this case I believe is a fair assumption. It is not very cost effective to change management every year or so if a new competitor starts up, making competition rather difficult when it comes to fixed business's being run under contract.

 

[MaggieD]

Really?

So how come there hasn't been a wave of competing libraries all over the nation?

There's no law preventing the establishment of private libraries, and I'm sure there are lots of places that don't have one.

Actually there are:

Here's one solution that doesn't involve taxpayers in Ft Worth:

The city came close to closing two library branches last year, but they were kept open after public outcry. This year, Library Director Gleniece Robinson began laying the foundation for the closures at the beginning of the summer. The cuts would save $1.2 million in operating costs. Robinson said she's eager to look at the proposal. Pepper said the library foundation could operate the three branches for far less than that, relying on volunteers and part-time employees. The foundation was formed in 1993 to raise money for renovations at the Central Library. It raised about $5 million for that campaign and has since raised money for other library programs, including a computer system and renovations at the North Side Library. There are several examples of privately run libraries. The library in University Park, a wealthy Dallas suburb, opened in 2002 and is operated by a nonprofit corporation. Private libraries are more common in New England. They still receive some public funds for books. "It's a very New England kind of thing, where they were started by the ladies' aid society and so forth," said Nancy Symington, director of the Dennis Memorial Library.

Targeted Fort Worth libraries would stay open three days a week under foundation's plan | ...

Another:

Mason City library coffee shop to be privately run
By JOHN SKIPPER, john.skipper@globegazette.com | Posted: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:00 am

MASON CITY — When the renovated Mason City Public Library opens in the fall of 2010, one of the new features will be a coffee shop. Mary Markwalter, library director, said it will be privately run. Critics of a library coffee shop had complained a city-run coffee shop would be competing with existing businesses. “The coffee counter will be in the northeast corner of the Commons area,” said Markwalter. “There will be a private vendor who will lease space from the library.” Markwalter said requests for proposals were sent to prospective vendors earlier this year. The Library Board received several responses and chose Nancy Pearson of Mason City as the vendor. She has previous experience as a coffee vendor, said Markwalter. The coffee counter will be part of a 2,000-square-foot Commons area in the center of the building, she said. The Commons will link the Mason City Room and the main library and will have the coffee counter, Friends of the Library retail space, a circulation desk and a mix of lounge furniture and tables and chairs. It will also have wireless Internet access and public access computers, said Markwalter.

Quite sure there are many more.