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Prisons: Outside the Blocks

Aunt Spiker

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Lets use whole numbers here, 2 million people are incarcerated in America.

Incarceration in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why can we not use this labor force as:

1. Soldiers on the frontline?

2. Farmers of the organic movement in controlled areas?

3. Voluntary Medical "Lab Mice"?
Seriously?

I know it use to be common for a person to join the Army in lieu of imprisonment. . . don't know if the do that anymore as part of a legal-deal.
Farming - they do this, as well - in various areas (though why it would have to be organic, I don't know).
Valunteers for Medical Sciences - some do this as well.

They do other jobs, as well, the classic one is making license plates - another is crafting dentures . . . you get the idea.

I sure as heck don't want anyone forced into doing something that they don't want to do when it comes to dying for their country, picking the food I'm going to serve my children and the medicines I might be taking to keep my heart pumping.
 

VonDutch

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What type of response do you invoke when you start your reply with, "seriously?"

I understand the marines do make exceptions for petty offenses to join the military ranks. But I think a larger movement could be made.

Farming to my knowledge is not done on a large scale, maybe recreational gardening..... I choose organic because its more labor intensive.

America used to have a Medical experiment option, but they stopped due to "favortism", havent heard of another program since. Please educate me if im wrong.

Of course they have other jobs, but a majority of them sit idle because programs are not available, and of course this is all voluntarily based.

And I love how you close with emotional attachments, like your opening..... Nobody wants to force someone into defending our freedoms, that wasnt implied. And yea, could you imagine if a guy who cheated on his taxes picked your childrens vegetables while being monitored by guards.... the outroar that would invoke on the "nancies" or a volunteer prisoner testing the same medicine that you might be taking for your heart once approved.... What does that even mean, I cant even follow the last one, please explain, "the medicines I might be taking to keep my heart pumping. "
 

Aunt Spiker

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I asked if you were serious because I didn't know if you were serious. Sometimes people start threads out of fun rather than genuine debate :shrug:

Beyond what I wrote - I concern myself little with the penal codes and the lifestyles of our convicts. I see them mowing the freeway grass and cleaning up liter frequently and have no problem with that.
 

VonDutch

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I asked if you were serious because I didn't know if you were serious. Sometimes people start threads out of fun rather than genuine debate :shrug:

Beyond what I wrote - I concern myself little with the penal codes and the lifestyles of our convicts. I see them mowing the freeway grass and cleaning up liter frequently and have no problem with that.
Well I apologize about the "seriously" remark then.

And you admittance to little concern for penal codes is my entire point. Americans dont care about what happens to the "bad guy" when he goes away, they dont care we pay millions for a 2 million person workforce to sit idly, therefore nothing gets done because nobody cares, nobody cares about running an efficient system because it doesnt effect them minus the dollar in taxes.... It all ties in together
 

Aunt Spiker

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Well I apologize about the "seriously" remark then.

And you admittance to little concern for penal codes is my entire point. Americans dont care about what happens to the "bad guy" when he goes away, they dont care we pay millions for a 2 million person workforce to sit idly, therefore nothing gets done because nobody cares, nobody cares about running an efficient system because it doesnt effect them minus the dollar in taxes.... It all ties in together
Well, I'm not concerned with how they're employed - because I know they're employed.
I am, however, concerned about how they're kept, fed and otherwise spend their time.

I fully support rehabilitation programs and a restructuring of the system - I think the whole point should be to reform in an effort to KEEP them out of prison . . . rather than our current system which just lets them lose them ushers them back in two weeks later.

But putting them in the military, hiring them as lab mice or putting them to work in the fields - none of these things will lead to a future void of crime. Education, positive reinforcement and an actual reboot to life is the only way to do that (has been proven).
 

Goof Noodle

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Seriously, if you are truly concerned about costs, then why is getting ride of the unions in the judicial and correctional systems not a option. Also, how about not imprisoning someone that doesn't violate the liberties of another individual.
 

Korimyr the Rat

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1. Soldiers on the frontline?
Our military is composed of highly-trained professionals. They don't want and can't use a bunch of convicts.

2. Farmers of the organic movement in controlled areas?
I see no problem here.

3. Voluntary Medical "Lab Mice"?
Because if they're in prison rather than on death row, they're still citizens and they still have rights. Besides, medical conditions in prison make it so that prisoners don't make up an appropriate "control group" since there are so many communicable diseases.
 

VonDutch

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Our military is composed of highly-trained professionals. They don't want and can't use a bunch of convicts.
Thats an unreasonable & broad comment. I hardly find a "convict" who made one bad decision to get behind a wheel while drunk so much of a "convict" as to not be capable of becoming a highly trained convoy truck driver or cook. It hardly makes more sense to have a perfectly intelligent human sitting in a "cage" for 5 years for a one-time mistake.





Because if they're in prison rather than on death row, they're still citizens and they still have rights. Besides, medical conditions in prison make it so that prisoners don't make up an appropriate "control group" since there are so many communicable diseases.
You're right, I was thinking more along the lines of Death Row. Regardless they all have rights, which is why I said voluntary.

And the "control group" comment is off again, you cant argue that testing monkeys and dogs is a better test group.
 

TacticalEvilDan

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Korimyr the Rat

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It hardly makes more sense to have a perfectly intelligent human sitting in a "cage" for 5 years for a one-time mistake.
Then they shouldn't have been sentenced to five years in prison in the first place. Your problem here is with sentencing guidelines, not with what jobs prisoners are allowed to hold.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Thats an unreasonable & broad comment. I hardly find a "convict" who made one bad decision to get behind a wheel while drunk so much of a "convict" as to not be capable of becoming a highly trained convoy truck driver or cook. It hardly makes more sense to have a perfectly intelligent human sitting in a "cage" for 5 years for a one-time mistake.
If someone's perfectly intelligent then WHY were they drunk-driving? If someone's perfectly intelligent then WHY the heck are they even IN jail. :shrug: There's far more to serving in the military than "I can shoot" and far more to going to jail than 'oops, my bad"

In order to be a good soldier you have to maintain control of your thoughts, emotions and make wise decisions split-second.
If someone's making a habit of drunk driving then they're showing that they do not have control of their emotions and can't really make wise split second decisions. . . . and the reason why this would matter ot your example is that you don't get tossed in jail for 5 years for a once or twice offense such as driving while intoxicated - if you're in jail for DUI then you did far more than just scoot your kaboose to the local snatch n go for some skittles :shrug:
 

VonDutch

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In other words, as cannon fodder?
As anything, infantry yes, services yes, supply yes.... basically a program to allow them to serve the military instead of the prison system.



Prisoners are typically given work to do.
You're right, I suppose this is more of a, "We should have large scale farming prison installations where the manual labor comes from prisoners" comment than anything. An entire facility which is a Prison Farm. But yea, I see your point, whats my arguement if they are making license plates or farming....



Since a prisoner's freedom has been taken from them, there is no such thing as "voluntary."
Well that still doesnt give "Avon" the right to test makeup on his skin. But I think a volunteer base should be available for testing.
 

VonDutch

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Then they shouldn't have been sentenced to five years in prison in the first place. Your problem here is with sentencing guidelines, not with what jobs prisoners are allowed to hold.
"They" are hypathetical... and my point has nothing to do with sentencing. Its about using these 2 million people for something more useful, its about having a more efficient program than the current one which is to have them caged up idly.

If someone's perfectly intelligent then WHY were they drunk-driving? If someone's perfectly intelligent then WHY the heck are they even IN jail. :shrug: There's far more to serving in the military than "I can shoot" and far more to going to jail than 'oops, my bad"
Really? "Someone" was an example of how many perfectly capable people in our nation make a one time mistake and end up in prison, who cares if it was a DD incident or Insider trader.... thats hardly holds any weight in my point. And I would argue that prison is full of intelligent people, who got caught. And I beg to differ that there are jobs in the military that theres far more required than "can I shoot", and can I ask where your military expertise comes from? You do know that there are services & supply jobs that arent that advanced?


In order to be a good soldier you have to maintain control of your thoughts, emotions and make wise decisions split-second.
If someone's making a habit of drunk driving then they're showing that they do not have control of their emotions and can't really make wise split second decisions. . . . and the reason why this would matter ot your example is that you don't get tossed in jail for 5 years for a once or twice offense such as driving while intoxicated - if you're in jail for DUI then you did far more than just scoot your kaboose to the local snatch n go for some skittles :shrug:
Not all good soliders do not have to make wise decisions in split seconds, some good soldiers are allowed days to mess up your finance and or paperwork, some are allowed days to mop the gymnasium. Not all soldiers are highly advanced super whiz and not all prisoners are cut-throat dirty pirates who'd kill for peanut butter crackers....

And stop using my drunk driver guy so literally....
 

TacticalEvilDan

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As anything, infantry yes, services yes, supply yes.... basically a program to allow them to serve the military instead of the prison system.
I think the number of servicemen and -women who would be eager to work alongside prisoner-soldiers would be precisely zero.

You're right, I suppose this is more of a, "We should have large scale farming prison installations where the manual labor comes from prisoners" comment than anything. An entire facility which is a Prison Farm. But yea, I see your point, whats my arguement if they are making license plates or farming....
What, exactly, would be the goal achieved by large-scale farming operations worked by prisoners that aren't achieved for-profit by family-owned and industrial farms?

Well that still doesnt give "Avon" the right to test makeup on his skin. But I think a volunteer base should be available for testing.
You seem to be missing my point, which is that it is not possible for a man or a woman to consent to anything when their freedoms have been stripped.

You have to have freedom in order to have the freedom to say no.
 

VonDutch

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I think the number of servicemen and -women who would be eager to work alongside prisoner-soldiers would be precisely zero.
Your wrong, but I see your point. There would be some who wouldnt want to work along side someone (just like there are some soldiers who dont want to clean the ****ters), unfortunatly as a good soldier you do as your ordered and if the service to which you serve deems "that guy" worthy of wearing the uniform, you serve next to him. I for one would have no problem fixing machines next to a guy who "cheated his taxes" and could either do 5 years military or 5 years prison.





What, exactly, would be the goal achieved by large-scale farming operations worked by prisoners that aren't achieved for-profit by family-owned and industrial farms?
The goal would be to have them doing something productive instead of sitting idly. But again, your right on this subject, its more about "doing something" over "farming".




You seem to be missing my point, which is that it is not possible for a man or a woman to consent to anything when their freedoms have been stripped.

You have to have freedom in order to have the freedom to say no.
Im no lawyer, but you still have human rights and would need to consent if a program was created.
 
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