Prisoners in multiple states call for strikes to protest forced labor

[Henrin]

both of which are illegal.
also your post has nothing to do with what I said but nice try at a
strawman.

Tell me, what percentage of sexual assaults in prison are done by prison guards? Hint: It's a high percentage.

 

[ludin]

When you make it hell all that comes out are demons.

not really. plenty of people get their lives straightened out.

 

[ludin]

Tell me, what percentage of sexual assaults in prison are done by prison guards? Hint: It's a high percentage.

let me know what this has to do with my posts? nothing just an appeal to emotion and strawman argument.

 

[ludin]

Selling weed doesn't deserve being raped in prison.
I don't care how illegal it is.

Illegality doesn't mean leaving our values in the gutter.

since I didn't mention either of these things have a nice day.
come back when you can actually address something in a logical manner instead of a strawman.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

since I didn't mention either of these things have a nice day.
come back when you can actually address something in a logical manner instead of a strawman.

You said prison is supposed to be hell, did you not?
Feigning indifference to actual problems that go on, doesn't make it ok.

 

[blackjack50]

like slaves the prisoners are legally deprived of their freedom
but that does not mean that our prisons are operated humanely
there should be no forced labor
our prisons should be both austere and safe
it's time for our nation to take a hard look at hard time

"There should be no forced incarceration either." I am putting that in quotes to show my sarcasm.

It is one thing for prisoners to be humanely treated, it is another to try and just give them a time out. Our prisons are a freakin joke. They are gang schools. They are leaky ships. Prison is SUPPOSED to be a punishment. When you murder someone...you deserve punishment. When you decide to deprive someone of their vehicle? Or stuck a gun in their face? I think people forget that prisoners also have victims. Maybe not all the time.

I would say that hard labor should be forced as a way to compensate victims in Crimes where the evidence is clear enough that there is no doubt who the criminal and victim are.

 

[Henrin]

let me know what this has to do with my posts? nothing just an appeal to emotion and strawman argument.

It has everything to do with your posts. When a high percentage of sexual assaults on inmates are being done by prison employees something is seriously wrong with the prison system.

 

[What if...?]

not really. plenty of people get their lives straightened out.

Yes, and there is a clear difference between "rehabilitation" and "punishment" models in recidivism rates.

The former are universally more effective.

They were largely abandoned during the drug war, mandatory minimum, zero tolerance frenzy. Cries of "country clubs", which did exist for white collar criminals, led to evisceration of education and recreation programs.

If you looked at a list of what prisoners "enjoy" as "luxuries" and then looked at the phone book sized list of things they don't get to "enjoy" at all the idea that prison should suck more than it does by default becomes pretty petty.

By law, the time is the punishment, deliberately increasing suffering during that time is generally illegal.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Though, I believe it is probably better for society to resocialize criminals than punishing them, I see no ethical problem with normal forced labor or solitary, if it is legislated correctly.

Do you think its being "legislated correctly" right now

 

[TheDemSocialist]

Most prisoners when offered to work take it by their own free choice, know why, because they are given something to do to pass the time, often it is outside (a plus), they get a way to make a few bucks to buy things and it passes Time, something they want to do as quickly as possible. Take away all ability to do those things and then you Will see riots.

Its called forced labor for a reason, there is no choice.

 

[joG]

Do you think its being "legislated correctly" right now

It seems so. But I am open to change.

 

[Casper]

Its called forced labor for a reason, there is no choice.

With the vast majority of it is not forced. For those put on hard labor, some deserve it others do not, should be on a case by case basis.

 

[Ikari]

Read more @: PRISONERS IN MULTIPLE STATES CALL FOR STRIKES TO PROTEST FORCED LABOR

Prison labor has essentially become the "next best thing since slavery". Pay your laborers either nothing or as little as .17 cents and they make your goods for you. [/FONT][/COLOR]

There are oh so many necessary reforms to our prisons, and the overabundant use of solitary is certainly on that list (population density tops the list). Their pay for work, not so high though. They are in prison. It's not happy fun time.

 

[cpwill]

They shouldn't be doing for profit work or even make office furniture or whatever for the state.

It incentivises putting more folks in jail and holding them longer.

There's a bad history of chain gangs, which WAS slavery.

Let them work in the kitchen, landscaping, etc. But with the understanding that the time is the punishment and compensate accordingly. Not minimum wage but a "real" amount of money that could be saved. This would make possible better return to society by teaching life skills.

One of the European countries has prisons where as prisoners near the end of their sentences they move them to facilities that have houses shared like a roommate situation. A little grocery store, other bills. So they live like normal people again for a while before getting out. Really really low recidivism rates.

Those programs that re-teach people how to live successfully in society I wholeheartedly support.

But for those who complain that they are having to work while in prison... I have no sympathy.

 

[Crovax]

By coincidence, 60 Minutes, this past Sunday, had a segment about prisons in Germany and as expected they have better results.
That leaves us with the question what is it that we wish to make our prisons to be? Punishment alone, in which case we should simply execute criminals, it would be cheaper and and completely eliminate recidivism. On the other hand if we wish to rehabilitate at least some of them, since at some point they will rejoin society we need to look at better solutions or copy them from places that have better results.

And note that Germany and other countries with prisons that rehabilitate well are very culturally homogeneous. A large part of our prison population does not want to be a part of American culture and feels that American culture is institutionally biased against them, rehabilitation will never work with that dynamic.

 

[What if...?]

Those programs that re-teach people how to live successfully in society I wholeheartedly support.

But for those who complain that they are having to work while in prison... I have no sympathy.

I don't think they don't want to work. It passes the time.

What has happened is the get tough on crime, make 'em pay for their incarceration fooraw has led to prisons becoming profit centers and budget savers with no benefit to the prisoners.

 

[What if...?]

And note that Germany and other countries with prisons that rehabilitate well are very culturally homogeneous. A large part of our prison population does not want to be a part of American culture and feels that American culture is institutionally biased against them, rehabilitation will never work with that dynamic.

So the way to deal with this is prove them right?

Sounds dumb.

 

[RetiredUSN]

I don't think they don't want to work. It passes the time.

What has happened is the get tough on crime, make 'em pay for their incarceration fooraw has led to prisons becoming profit centers and budget savers with no benefit to the prisoners.

What benefit were they to society before they got sentenced?

 

[Crovax]

So the way to deal with this is prove them right?

Sounds dumb.

Well it's certainly not to give them weekend furloughs

 

[What if...?]

Well it's certainly not to give them weekend furloughs

If one bad actor proved a system wrong capitalism would have been abandoned shortly after conception.

Just sayin'.

 

[Crovax]

If one bad actor proved a system wrong capitalism would have been abandoned shortly after conception.

Just sayin'.

If the furlough system worked it wouldn't have been shut down and we would be talking about the merits of President Dukakis instead of his weird affinity for turkey soup

Michael Dukakis would very much like your turkey carcass

 

[What if...?]

What benefit were they to society before they got sentenced?

Doesn't matter. If we aren't going to kill them or pay to keep them locked up forever we have to deal with them reentering society.

What we do now breaks them. I saw a study once that show that recidivism rates increase rapidly depending on amount of consecutive time served. At five years it reaches 95%, with strong indicators that the damage is permanent.

In other words, living too long in an entirely unnatural state makes it almost impossible to reassimilate to the natural one. Everyone they know has moved on, they have stayed the same because all the ways to grow as human beings have been stripped away in the "get tough" frenzy. No education for instance.

And consider how many are in prisons for disagreeing with the state as to what one can and can't do with their own body. The only thing all of us possess doesn't actually belong to us. We may only use it in ways the state approves of. Even when that use has no demonstrable negative effect on the rights of others.

 

[What if...?]

If the furlough system worked it wouldn't have been shut down and we would be talking about the merits of President Dukakis instead of his weird affinity for turkey soup

Michael Dukakis would very much like your turkey carcass

All that stuff got killed because of the "get tough on crime" propaganda campaign.

If it looked like "country club" in any way it was summarily stripped away. No determinations of "functionality" were involved.

 

[TheDemSocialist]

I do not see where the Supreme Court has told a prison they cannot force prisoners to work in some regard, further I find no real evidence that there is some fundamental right granted to prisoners for them organize and demand really anything in return for work.

They have not and as of today there is no right for them to do this, hence it being an illegal strike action.

But this is about what happens to those in the prison system no matter how they got there.

Exactly what this is drawing attention to.

Prison is not and should not be pleasant and nice, prison is about and should be about having to live without some basic things that others who are not in prison have access to, and prison is and should be about working (inside and outside the prison itself) for nothing in return.

Or how about making it about rehabilitation?

The last thing we need is an environment where prisoner life is better, it should be harsh. And harsh does not necessarily equal inhumane.

One of the definitions of "harsh" is, "cruel or severe."....

 

[RetiredUSN]

They have not and as of today there is no right for them to do this, hence it being an illegal strike action.


Exactly what this is drawing attention to.


Or how about making it about rehabilitation?


One of the definitions of "harsh" is, "cruel or severe."....

Go away with your rhetoric.

It costs the tax payer any wheres from 30-65 thousand dollars a year to house a convict. Getting back a little of the cost is fair game. Besides, there are many prisons that teach trades, offer free GED's, and college courses in exchange for their labor. Many prisons also count prison jobs towards early release.

Not every prison is the same.