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Prison Reform?

My plan for prison reform:

A.) Provide maximum rehabilitation (including mental health counseling, behavior modification, job training, and a real job with a living wage upon release from custody).
.

What convicted felons in California started experiencing when released from prison starting in the early 70's, that all of the jobs that x-cons use to work at after being released from prison were no longer available. Illegal aliens from Mexico now had those jobs at the car washes, washing dishes and working as a labor on a construction site.
 
What convicted felons in California started experiencing when released from prison starting in the early 70's, that all of the jobs that x-cons use to work at after being released from prison were no longer available. Illegal aliens from Mexico now had those jobs at the car washes, washing dishes and working as a labor on a construction site.

You can't very well expect someone who has no source of income, no job, and no hope of a job to necessarily remain a law abiding citizen. After all, one has to eat, and if the difference between eating and not eating means breaking the law, most people are going to break the law. People will do anything for a potato, as the saying goes.
 
You can't very well expect someone who has no source of income, no job, and no hope of a job to necessarily remain a law abiding citizen. After all, one has to eat, and if the difference between eating and not eating means breaking the law, most people are going to break the law. People will do anything for a potato, as the saying goes.

I concur Sig. But what's the answer :shrug:

One is released from prison and has ten years experience making license plates, not to many license plate manufactures in the private sector.

If you own a business that relies on unskilled labor who are you going to hire, the X-con or the illegal alien who will work for less ?

Most inmates sitting in our penal institutions are repeat offenders. When they are paroled and can't find a job, they go back to their old ways to survive.

Another problem with the parole system is that the parolee is required to return to the same environment, the same neighborhood where they got in trouble in the begaining. They come in contact with the same people who got them involved in crime.

I oppose the prison industries. It just takes jobs away from law abiding citizens competing in the private sector.
 
Something to think about.....

Is the US the only country where more men are raped than women?

The figures on rape may be uncertain, but we could lower the sexual assault rate in American jails – if we had the political will

.......Whether there are more men than women sexually assaulted in the US every year is an outstanding question. What's clear, though, is that sexual violence isn't a random crime of passion; it's a crime that has clear social purposes. And just as we've seen sexual violence against women significantly decrease as women have made greater social, economic and political gains, we're not going to see prison assaults decrease until we radically restructure our punitive criminal justice system, and until there's the same kind of righteous moral outrage over our draconian laws, absurd incarceration rates and levels of state-sanctioned abuse of the people that same state is charged with holding as there is about, say, women thinking they might have the right to their own bodies......

Is the US the only country where more men are raped than women? | Jill Filipovic | Comment is free | theguardian.com

RSD on February 27, 2012 at 10:57 pm said:
.....It is openly acknowledged in the US media that homosexual rape is a wide spread characteristic of the US penal system, bordering upon a rite of passage one assumes for the vulnerable criminal. Given the passion that the USA exhibits for incarcerating in people long term in these often barely managed penitentiaries, it is little wonder that a certain body of them have a profound fear of homosexuality in general.....For the poorly educated Bible Belter who may be little more than a step away from incarceration, the negative aspects of homosexuality may be ever present in his mind. No wonder therefore that he supports the most punitive sanctions against it. It’s a hell of a lot easier to fear & hate homosexuals than to sort of the mess of US penal system.
Save The World: Shag A Republican | MoronWatch

The fact that prisons are so horrendous may be a serious deterrent for many.



If the prison systems was free of violence and gangs etc, I wonder if that would actually encourage people to go there for the vast amount of government benefits such as health care, food, housing. education etc. especially if there is no other place to get help.

Maybe that is a side effect from not wanting to help poor people or provide health insurance to the masses. We need a really ****ed up prison system to discourage people from signing up.
 
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I concur Sig. But what's the answer :shrug:

One is released from prison and has ten years experience making license plates, not to many license plate manufactures in the private sector.

If you own a business that relies on unskilled labor who are you going to hire, the X-con or the illegal alien who will work for less ?

Most inmates sitting in our penal institutions are repeat offenders. When they are paroled and can't find a job, they go back to their old ways to survive.

Another problem with the parole system is that the parolee is required to return to the same environment, the same neighborhood where they got in trouble in the begaining. They come in contact with the same people who got them involved in crime.

I oppose the prison industries. It just takes jobs away from law abiding citizens competing in the private sector.

The topic of prison reform eventually leads to the topic of socioeconomic reform wherein we have to question the morality, indeed, the very sanity, of the socioeconomic system in which we presently live.

Prison industries are certainly a bad idea. Couple prison industry with prison privatization and you've created a monster that will surely threaten our civil liberties by introducing a compelling economic drive for virtual slavery. Imagine the absurdity of a world where there are fewer and fewer jobs available for the law abiding citizen because cheap prison labor has overtaken the job market in every area of unskilled, skilled, and even professional labor. The law abiding citizen is eventually forced to turn to criminal enterprise just to survive, and eventually ends up another virtual slave in the prison labor market.
 
Did you get mouthy one day with one of my Marines ? It could be your board.

I started surfing Trestles around 1966. Surfed it when I was stationed at Pendleton and kept surfing Trestles in to the late 70's. By then the Corps leased it to the state.

By 1971 the Marine Corps had confiscated so may boards that were never retrieved that they could have opened the world's largest surf shop.

You know how surfers are when it comes to waves and especially when Trestles is breaking. If the MP's showed up, stay out in the water, the only thing they could do was call in the Navy. But when a surfer acted like a A-hole, the SOP was issue a citation for trespassing and confiscate the board if he had big cajones and mouthed off.

It almost happened to me a couple times and I was a Marine sergeant.

You were issued a citation for trespassing and you had a court date at Pendleton. I think the fine was $25, it might have been a little higher. After you paid your fine you could retrieve your board at the PMO.

The MP's were suppose to clear the beach but were more interested in the girls. Any time girls are around a Marine, your mission kind of goes in the crapper. Surfers figured it out and started bringing their girl friends with them and they could surf all day.

Of course I was mouthy, I was a teenager pissed off because some of the best surf in So Cal was shut off by the military which I hated in my dumb ass youth. Then one day I got a letter in the mail and my mouth got shut immediately. The Trestles controversy continues to this day though, some things just go on and on.

Surfers, Marines in a tussle over Trestles - Los Angeles Times
 
You can't very well expect someone who has no source of income, no job, and no hope of a job to necessarily remain a law abiding citizen. After all, one has to eat, and if the difference between eating and not eating means breaking the law, most people are going to break the law. People will do anything for a potato, as the saying goes.

That is their problem that they brought on themselves. Why should society grind to a halt so we can take care off and spend money worthless criminals.
Drags on society such as these are part of the problem we have.
Build more jails if needed, hire more corrections officers, have only general population. You a child molester? Too bad, in the mix with the other cons.
You white collar? Oh, well. Better toughen up.
 
That is their problem that they brought on themselves. Why should society grind to a halt so we can take care off and spend money worthless criminals.
Drags on society such as these are part of the problem we have.
Build more jails if needed, hire more corrections officers, have only general population. You a child molester? Too bad, in the mix with the other cons.
You white collar? Oh, well. Better toughen up.

I don't think someone writing bad checks or using a stolen credit card should be put in prison with rapist, murderers and violent offenders of any stripe.
 
I don't think someone writing bad checks or using a stolen credit card should be put in prison with rapist, murderers and violent offenders of any stripe.

So just keep slapping them on the wrist so they can keep stealing?
Or, or, or just dont write bad checks or use a CC that aint yours.
 
So just keep slapping them on the wrist so they can keep stealing?
Or, or, or just dont write bad checks or use a CC that aint yours.

Put them in a prison with offenders that are at their level and focus more on rehabilitation than punishment. Putting them in with hard core violent criminals does not reform them and is just a bit inhumane IMO. Can you imagine some 20 year old kid that stole a car for a joy ride put in with these thugs, not a pretty picture.
 
Put them in a prison with offenders that are at their level and focus more on rehabilitation than punishment. Putting them in with hard core violent criminals does not reform them and is just a bit inhumane IMO. Can you imagine some 20 year old kid that stole a car for a joy ride put in with these thugs, not a pretty picture.
I dont have to imagine. My recently deceased niece's baby daddy is in prison right now. At 20.
He couldnt play it straight while on probation. So, he gets to do some real time at state.
 
I dont have to imagine. My recently deceased niece's baby daddy is in prison right now. At 20.
He couldnt play it straight while on probation. So, he gets to do some real time at state.

It will be interesting for you to observe what he is like after he gets out. Will he thug up and become a pro criminal with prison tattoos after being immersed in the culture or will he be rehabilitated, time will tell.
 
It will be interesting for you to observe what he is like after he gets out. Will he thug up and become a pro criminal with prison tattoos after being immersed in the culture or will he be rehabilitated, time will tell.

He pulled an armed robbery. I call that a pro already. Cant be amature cause they got "paid".
Thug up, oh man. We are way past that. He is straight up hood rat.
Tattoos? Yep, he has them all the way up to the neck.
He quit school, bought the whole hood rat thug package.
Was given every break possible. Even brought to our nieces funeral by sheriffs deputies that are in our family. Allowed to see his family and other thug friends.

Gets out in a few months. Wants his baby. Now there is a conversation on how to make that impossible.
How many chances do you give these people?
 
He pulled an armed robbery. I call that a pro already. Cant be amature cause they got "paid".
Thug up, oh man. We are way past that. He is straight up hood rat.
Tattoos? Yep, he has them all the way up to the neck.
He quit school, bought the whole hood rat thug package.
Was given every break possible. Even brought to our nieces funeral by sheriffs deputies that are in our family. Allowed to see his family and other thug friends.


Gets out in a few months. Wants his baby. Now there is a conversation on how to make that impossible.
How many chances do you give these people?

He's not the kind of guy I was talking about, he is right where he belongs.
 
Only if it is TRUE isolation. Remember, throughout the day prisoners have contact with counselors, priests, teachers, and other prison officials, and they still get periodic family visits. They have access to books, TV, and movies. It is not TRUE solitary confinement. They are only restricted from any contact with fellow prisoners.

It is usually true isolation, no TV, no teachers, priests etc. contact with the guards is only for the meals or the one hour "exercise" and is a hostile encounter. Pelican Bay style SHUs, have been spreading throughout the country and their use is increasing.
 
That is their problem that they brought on themselves...

Those stupid kids letting themselves get born to poor parents in the wrong neighborhood need to be taught a lesson.
 
In a different thread I pointed out problems with sending youthful offenders to prison. The same problems we have with adult prisoners.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...says-son-sorry-w-245-a-27.html#post1062185475

Here’s the gist:



Our entire prison system needs to be remodeled to make it a true deterrent, punishment, and tool for rehabilitation. This also applies to juvenile offenses.

Stage I would be to decriminalize most victimless crimes, and eliminate prison sentences for DUI (which would cover drugs and alcohol while driving). DUI would result in incarceration in a drug and alcohol treatment facility followed by a period of supervised release. This would significantly reduce, if not eliminate overcrowding.

Stage II would require separating non-violent and violent offenders into different categories, then predatory sex offenders for a third category. Predatory sex offenders would be diverted to secured psychiatric treatment facilities. All other inmates would go to Stage III facilities set up for violent or non-violent offenders.

Stage III would require conversion of all existing prisons and juvenile detention facilities into a “Separate System” format (also known as the Pennsylvania System); based on the principle of keeping prisoners in solitary confinement throughout their time in prison. No trustees, and almost no physical human interaction at all beyond periodic medical exams and daily feeding.

Thanks to modern technology protected computer systems on a closed network with no internet connection can be installed in each cell to allow contact with prison authorities. This would allow classes to be taught to groups of inmates who remain anonymous to all but the instructor; individual counseling sessions; religious worship sessions; and access to a library for reading purposes. One hour of daily exercise would be allowed to each prisoner alone in a small shared yard; centrally controlled access from a door at the back of the cell with alerts for each prisoner to enter and exit before the next is allowed into the yard.

Prisoners would do HARD TIME. They would NEVER come into contact with any other prisoners. Even the medical facility would have isolation treatment cells. Six months prior to release each prisoner could be given a skills evaluation test, and then offered the option of participation in a vocational training program based on their scores after release.

That’s my idea. Any thoughts or opinions?

Prison reform is a big issue for me as well, and I think you lay out a very good plan here.
 
Those stupid kids letting themselves get born to poor parents in the wrong neighborhood need to be taught a lesson.
Poor has no bearing on right and wrong.
Nieghborhoods have no bearing on right and wrong.
Lifes lessons are tough sometimes, if you are stupid. Better be tough.
 
In the largest prison protest in California’s history, nearly 30,000 inmates have gone on hunger strike. Their main grievance: the state’s use of solitary confinement, in which prisoners are held for years or decades with almost no social contact and the barest of sensory stimuli.

The human brain is ill-adapted to such conditions, and activists and some psychologists equate it to torture. Solitary confinement isn’t merely uncomfortable, they say, but such an anathema to human needs that it often drives prisoners mad.

In isolation, people become anxious and angry, prone to hallucinations and wild mood swings, and unable to control their impulses. The problems are even worse in people predisposed to mental illness, and can wreak long-lasting changes in prisoners’ minds.

“What we’ve found is that a series of symptoms occur almost universally. They are so common that it’s something of a syndrome,” said psychiatrist Terry Kupers of the Wright Institute, a prominent critic of solitary confinement. “I’m afraid we’re talking about permanent damage.”

California holds some 4,500 inmates in solitary confinement, making it emblematic of the United States as a whole: More than 80,000 U.S. prisoners are housed this way, more than in any other democratic nation.

Even as those numbers have swelled, so have the ranks of critics. A series of scathing reports and documentaries — from the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, the New York Civil Liberties Union, the American Civil Liberties Union and Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International — were released in 2012, and the U.S. Senate held its first-ever hearings on solitary confinement. In May of this year, the U.S. Government Accountability Office criticized the federal Bureau of Prisons for failing to consider what long-term solitary confinement did to prisoners.

What’s emerged from the reports and testimonies reads like a mix of medieval cruelty and sci-fi dystopia. For 23 hours or more per day, in what’s euphemistically called “administrative segregation” or “special housing,” prisoners are kept in bathroom-sized cells, under fluorescent lights that never shut off. Video surveillance is constant. Social contact is restricted to rare glimpses of other prisoners, encounters with guards, and brief video conferences with friends or family.


'Most of these people will return to our communities.'For stimulation, prisoners might have a few books; often they don’t have television, or even a radio. In 2011, another hunger strike among California’s prisoners secured such amenities as wool hats in cold weather and wall calendars. The enforced solitude can last for years, even decades.

These horrors are best understood by listening to people who’ve endured them. As one Florida teenager described in a report on solitary confinement in juvenile prisoners, “The only thing left to do is go crazy.” To some ears, though, stories will always be anecdotes, potentially misleading, possibly powerful, but not necessarily representative. That’s where science enters the picture.

“What we often hear from corrections officials is that inmates are feigning mental illness,” said Heather Rice, a prison policy expert at the National Religious Campaign Against Torture. “To actually hear the hard science is very powerful.”..........

Consistent patterns emerge, centering around the aforementioned extreme anxiety, anger, hallucinations, mood swings and flatness, and loss of impulse control. In the absence of stimuli, prisoners may also become hypersensitive to any stimuli at all. Often they obsess uncontrollably, as if their minds didn’t belong to them, over tiny details or personal grievances. Panic attacks are routine, as is depression and loss of memory and cognitive function.

According to Kupers, who is serving as an expert witness in an ongoing lawsuit over California’s solitary confinement practices, prisoners in isolation account for just 5 percent of the total prison population, but nearly half of its suicides.

When prisoners leave solitary confinement and re-enter society — something that often happens with no transition period — their symptoms might abate, but they’re unable to adjust. “I’ve called this the decimation of life skills,” said Kupers. “It destroys one’s capacity to relate socially, to work, to play, to hold a job or enjoy life.”.......
The Horrible Psychology of Solitary Confinement - Wired Science
 
I just read the first paragraph.
Sounds like a solid plan to lower the prison population by 30,000.
3 weeks from now, savin' big time.
 
Of course I was mouthy, I was a teenager pissed off because some of the best surf in So Cal was shut off by the military which I hated in my dumb ass youth. Then one day I got a letter in the mail and my mouth got shut immediately. The Trestles controversy continues to this day though, some things just go on and on.

Surfers, Marines in a tussle over Trestles - Los Angeles Times

Thanks for the update Sawerloinggon.

This is a tough one but I have to side with the Marines. Surfers and the Marine Corps always had a good relationship. It got a little turbalent in the late 60's and early 70's. My opinion was that if you were a Marine not from California you associated the surfers with their long hair with the anti war hippies. West coast Marines knew better. More surfers can be found serving in the Corps than any branch of the service. During the 60's I knew many surfers who joined the Corps only thinking that they would have better access to Trestles.

Trestles (Green Beach) is an excellent beach for amphibious landings. If I remember correctly the last time Trestles (Green Beach) was used for an amphibious exercise was in or around 1956. Ever since the surfers ruled over the beach. Where the Corps is coming from, they are looking at a worse case scenario, America at total war comparable to WW ll where the Marines have to be able to train and put 500,000 boots ashore. If Trestles was designated a historical site, they wouldn't be able to use Trestles during a war time emergency.

The main amphibious training beaches are south of Trestles, and San Onofre (Old Man), Red Beach and White Beach. White Beach is the biggest one and most used. It's where John Wayn's "Sands of Iwo Jima" was filmed and where President Nixon enjoyed walking along the beach. There's another training beach further south towards Oceanside. This beach was the best of them all and the Marine Corps screwed up many decades ago allowing it to be declared a bird sanctuary during certain months of the year. To many restrictions on that beach to be properly used for training today.

A few years ago the libs in Sacramento wanted to extend a toll road that would have gone through the N/W end of Camp Pendleton connecting to I-5 right in front of Trestles with an off ramp giving easy access to flat landers and ho-dads to Trestles. The Marine Corps opposed the liberals and so did the surfers and the Surfriders Association, We prevailed. The Corps didn't lose valuable traing area and the surfers wouldn't have their women being gawked at by a bunch of low life's from L.A.

Leave things as they are. The only people who use Trestles are surfers. You still have to park your car in San Clemente and hike in. Thanks to President Nixon, you no longer have to go through a hole in the Camp Pendleton fence. There's now a permanent opening. But you still use the same trail used by surfers for almost sixty years.

Designating Trestles a historical site would bring in restrictions, LE, and out siders who don't fit in.
Surfing is just not a sport or a hobby but a life style and a culture. President Nixon knew that and so does the U.S. Marine Corps. The Surfriders Association are getting a little to political and are back stabbing their best ally in the back. The surfer culture has to be one of the most a-political cultures in America. Lets keep it that way.
 
Poverty is the number one predictor as to whether someone will become a criminal.
That is a crutch. Look at all the people that grew up in REAL poverty during the depression.
Weakness of mind and poor up bringing are what lead to becoming a criminal.
 
That is their problem that they brought on themselves. Why should society grind to a halt so we can take care off and spend money worthless criminals.
Drags on society such as these are part of the problem we have.
Build more jails if needed, hire more corrections officers, have only general population. You a child molester? Too bad, in the mix with the other cons.
You white collar? Oh, well. Better toughen up.

That's a bit short sighted, don't you think?

Understand that most of the inmate population is eventually released back into society. Therefore, whether you realize it or not, you have selfish reasons for wanting inmates to be properly rehabilitated and properly reintroduced back into society. The fact is that you put yourself and your family in serious jeopardy every time a wayward citizen goes to prison and is hardened into a sociopathic career criminal, and is then released back into the world--your world--with all the attitude and self-control of a mad dog.
 
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