Prison Reform?

[zstep18]

If you do so in front of a minor child, and abusing pot is illegal, you're exposing a child to criminal behavior, and thereby may have committed a reckless endangerment crime.

There may also be other similar applications.

Best is simply don't abuse a federally controlled substance.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Prosecute individuals on "may haves". If I drink a glass of wine in front someone underage, will I be exposing that child to the possibility of underage drinking (which is where your logic goes)?

 

[Captain Adverse]

Sorry, guess I'm a little backward, but this sounds like society spending a great deal of limited resources on individuals who have neither the desire nor the capacity to participate as contributing members of that society. Why not simply spend limited resources on those individuals who actually want to stay out of prison and contribute but may not have the means or opportunity to do so and let those who turn to crime suffer the consequences.

Hi John.

Simply because the problems with such individuals don't disappear when they are incarcerated. They reappear as soon as these individuals are released. Moreover, no one seems to think the threat of prison is an effective deterrant. So unless you are advocating life sentences and/or death sentences for ALL crimes that could lead to imprisonment...offering solutions to the problems seems helpful.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Just want to point out that any time prisoners were segregated, separating the non violent from the violent, the black gangs from the Latino gangs, the first time offenders from the career criminals or institutionalized inmates the political left goes bananas.

Prisons are schools for criminals and wannabe criminals. In California's prisons the hardcore inmate instructors on how to commit crimes do a better job of teaching than the LAUSD teachers.
Even the not wannabe criminals who are serving time are heavily influenced by the professional criminals in prison.
You have to segregate.

As for prison overcrowding, Sheriff Arpaio got it right.

Arpaio pitches Tent City to ease CA prison overcrowding - CBS 5 - KPHO

Soooo....I take it you support my ideas?

 

[CanadaJohn]

Hi John.

Simply because the problems with such individuals don't disappear when they are incarcerated. They reappear as soon as these individuals are released. Moreover, no one seems to think the threat of prison is an effective deterrant. So unless you are advocating life sentences and/or death sentences for ALL crimes that could lead to imprisonment...offering solutions to the problems seems helpful.

Good evening CA - if incarceration isn't a deterent to further incarceration, then incarceration isn't doing the intended job. And if people are repeat offenders, their sentences should be exponentially higher for each subsequent offense.

Simply put, there are some members of society who feel that the personal benefits of committing a crime are worth the potential penalties if caught. That's a recipe for making crime pay. I would agree, however, that some crimes that currently require imprisonment could and should be reformed to fines or sentencing to mandatory treatment facilities, at direct and full cost to the perpetrator of the crime, not society.

 

[Hard Truth]

Stages I & II seem good, but not stage III. More than 24 hours of solitary is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual and causes serious mental illness and suicides. Solitary over 24 hours should be banned.

Don't agree? Do a test, have someone lock you in a dark closet for a few days and see if I'm wrong.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Good evening CA - if incarceration isn't a deterent to further incarceration, then incarceration isn't doing the intended job. And if people are repeat offenders, their sentences should be exponentially higher for each subsequent offense.

Simply put, there are some members of society who feel that the personal benefits of committing a crime are worth the potential penalties if caught. That's a recipe for making crime pay. I would agree, however, that some crimes that currently require imprisonment could and should be reformed to fines or sentencing to mandatory treatment facilities, at direct and full cost to the perpetrator of the crime, not society.

This is currently true. But one of the factors I've noted about deterrence is that those who've been to prison portray it as "just another neighborhood" they get to visit when they are sent up. Basically, for "career criminals" it is because they get three hots and a cot plus the pleasure of hanging out with all their old plals and making new ones. Only the newest, most clueless, and oft abused while there fear to return.

Well stop it from being a "rest stop" on the way to the next crime and maybe they won't be so nonchalant about it.

 

[APACHERAT]

Soooo....I take it you support my ideas?

I sure do.

But I think the ACLU doesn't.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Stages I & II seem good, but not stage III. More than 24 hours of solitary is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual and causes serious mental illness and suicides. Solitary over 24 hours should be banned.

Don't agree? Do a test, have someone lock you in a dark closet for a few days and see if I'm wrong.

Only if it is TRUE isolation. Remember, throughout the day prisoners have contact with counselors, priests, teachers, and other prison officials, and they still get periodic family visits. They have access to books, TV, and movies. It is not TRUE solitary confinement. They are only restricted from any contact with fellow prisoners.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I sure do.

But I think the ACLU doesn't.

I'm a member of the ACLU...I'll have to ask around. LOL

 

[CanadaJohn]

This is currently true. But one of the factors I've noted about deterrence is that those who've been to prison portray it as "just another neighborhood" they get to visit when they are sent up. Basically, for "career criminals" it is because they get three hots and a cot plus the pleasure of hanging out with all their old plals and making new ones. Only the newest, most clueless, and oft abused while there fear to return.

Well stop it from being a "rest stop" on the way to the next crime and maybe they won't be so nonchalant about it.

And just to be clear, I'm not all that hard-hearted when it comes to the less fortunate in society. My original point was that I'd be much more supportive of tax dollars going to provide supports and assistance to kids and young adults in gang-infested neighborhoods, as an example, to help them avoid falling into the wrong crowd than spending money chasing after criminals who've already been lost, in most cases.

 

[Captain Adverse]

And just to be clear, I'm not all that hard-hearted when it comes to the less fortunate in society. My original point was that I'd be much more supportive of tax dollars going to provide supports and assistance to kids and young adults in gang-infested neighborhoods, as an example, to help them avoid falling into the wrong crowd than spending money chasing after criminals who've already been lost, in most cases.

Well, you have no argument with me there. I've just avoided "social issues programs" as better for being ripe for some other thread or three.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Well, you have no argument with me there. I've just avoided "social issues programs" as better for being ripe for some other thread or three.

Fair enough - and just to further clarify, the assistance I'm talking about would not go to the parents of such kids at risk but to the communities they live in and to the direct benefit of the kids themselves. Too much assistance that goes to and through parents never reaches the children.

 

[APACHERAT]

I'm a member of the ACLU...I'll have to ask around. LOL

Well here's the problem I believe the ACLU would have.



Stage III >" based on the principle of keeping prisoners in solitary confinement throughout their time in prison."<

 

[Captain Adverse]

Well here's the problem I believe the ACLU would have.


Stage III >" based on the principle of keeping prisoners in solitary confinement throughout their time in prison."<

Perhaps, but as I stated to another member, it is not truly "solitary confinement" since the prisoner has access to counseling, religious ministry, teachers and other rehabilitation personnel; TV, movies, books, and still gets visitation. Just no prisoner contact. We're not talking about Kevin Bacon in "Murder in the First" (1995) here.:

 

[SILVER SURFER]

Only if it is TRUE isolation. Remember, throughout the day prisoners have contact with counselors, priests, teachers, and other prison officials, and they still get periodic family visits. They have access to books, TV, and movies. It is not TRUE solitary confinement. They are only restricted from any contact with fellow prisoners.

Do they get to go on DP? :lol:

 

[Captain Adverse]

Do they get to go on DP? :lol:

LOL Nope, the computer access is on a closed net, they don't have internet access. No facebook, no dating services, no DP!

 

[APACHERAT]

Perhaps, but as I stated to another member, it is not truly "solitary confinement" since the prisoner has access to counseling, religious ministry, teaching and other personnel, and still gets visitation. We're not talking about Kevin Bacon in "Murder in the First" (1995) here.:

The last few months of my tour of duty in the Marine Corps I was TAD to the Camp Pendleton Provost Marshal for a month because they were short handed. I was mostly a chaser picking up Marines and sailors at L.A. County and Orange County jails. A few times I was order to take a detail down to the Trestles Beach and make a sweep of chasing the surfers away when Nixon would be in town at his home at the Summer White House in San Clemente and the Trestles was adjacent to Nixon's home.

One day I had to deliver a prisoner to the infamous Camp Pendleton brig. That place scared me. It looked like something you would see in a Hollywood movie of a Nazi consecration camp during WW ll. The gun towers all of the barb wire and concertina wire. One of the brig guards said this brig was worse than the Portsmouth Naval Prison.

Congress eventually held hearings on the Camp Pendleton brig and it was finaly bulldozed down.

This is one of my Marines confiscating a surfers surfboard when the surfer got a little to mouthy when we were clearing Trestles.

 

[SILVER SURFER]

This is one of my Marines confiscating a surfers surfboard when the surfer got a little to mouthy when we were clearing Trestles.

View attachment 67152110

That dude looks like Charlie Sheen before he burned-out - just sayin'

 

[SILVER SURFER]

LOL Nope, the computer access is on a closed net, they don't have internet access. No facebook, no dating services, no DP!

No internet would suck but Stage III sounds pretty good - kind of a monasterial retreat for a few years. I may have to turn to a life of crime. :lamo

 

[Sig]

My plan for prison reform:

A.) Provide maximum rehabilitation (including mental health counseling, behavior modification, job training, and a real job with a living wage upon release from custody).

B.) Execute the inmates who are incorrigible and incapable of rehabilitating.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

My plan for prison reform:

A.) Provide maximum rehabilitation (including mental health counseling, behavior modification, job training, and a real job with a living wage upon release from custody).

B.) Execute the inmates who are incorrigible and incapable of rehabilitating.

If not execute banish to some inescapable island for life.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

The last few months of my tour of duty in the Marine Corps I was TAD to the Camp Pendleton Provost Marshal for a month because they were short handed. I was mostly a chaser picking up Marines and sailors at L.A. County and Orange County jails. A few times I was order to take a detail down to the Trestles Beach and make a sweep of chasing the surfers away when Nixon would be in town at his home at the Summer White House in San Clemente and the Trestles was adjacent to Nixon's home.

One day I had to deliver a prisoner to the infamous Camp Pendleton brig. That place scared me. It looked like something you would see in a Hollywood movie of a Nazi consecration camp during WW ll. The gun towers all of the barb wire and concertina wire. One of the brig guards said this brig was worse than the Portsmouth Naval Prison.

Congress eventually held hearings on the Camp Pendleton brig and it was finaly bulldozed down.

This is one of my Marines confiscating a surfers surfboard when the surfer got a little to mouthy when we were clearing Trestles.

View attachment 67152110

Hey I was one of those surfers and that board looks familiar. :lol:

 

[CRUE CAB]

In a different thread I pointed out problems with sending youthful offenders to prison. The same problems we have with adult prisoners.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...says-son-sorry-w-245-a-27.html#post1062185475

Here’s the gist:



Our entire prison system needs to be remodeled to make it a true deterrent, punishment, and tool for rehabilitation. This also applies to juvenile offenses.

Stage I would be to decriminalize most victimless crimes, and eliminate prison sentences for DUI (which would cover drugs and alcohol while driving). DUI would result in incarceration in a drug and alcohol treatment facility followed by a period of supervised release. This would significantly reduce, if not eliminate overcrowding.

Stage II would require separating non-violent and violent offenders into different categories, then predatory sex offenders for a third category. Predatory sex offenders would be diverted to secured psychiatric treatment facilities. All other inmates would go to Stage III facilities set up for violent or non-violent offenders.

Stage III would require conversion of all existing prisons and juvenile detention facilities into a “Separate System” format (also known as the Pennsylvania System); based on the principle of keeping prisoners in solitary confinement throughout their time in prison. No trustees, and almost no physical human interaction at all beyond periodic medical exams and daily feeding.

Thanks to modern technology protected computer systems on a closed network with no internet connection can be installed in each cell to allow contact with prison authorities. This would allow classes to be taught to groups of inmates who remain anonymous to all but the instructor; individual counseling sessions; religious worship sessions; and access to a library for reading purposes. One hour of daily exercise would be allowed to each prisoner alone in a small shared yard; centrally controlled access from a door at the back of the cell with alerts for each prisoner to enter and exit before the next is allowed into the yard.

Prisoners would do HARD TIME. They would NEVER come into contact with any other prisoners. Even the medical facility would have isolation treatment cells. Six months prior to release each prisoner could be given a skills evaluation test, and then offered the option of participation in a vocational training program based on their scores after release.

That’s my idea. Any thoughts or opinions?

You need to work in the prison system first.

 

[What if...?]

Unless we're going to just kill them (and we are rightly cautious about engaging in wholesale slaughter on that scale), they need to be reformed. Hell-prison pretty much guarantees that any changes in their attitudes and behaviors will be NEGATIVE.

I'd reserve hell-prison for the ones that are NEVER getting out... in my reform version, murderers, rapists and 2nd-time major-violent-felons would go there. Everyone one else goes to a facility whose express purpose is reform rather than punishment. If we're ever going to let them roam free among us again, they need their behaviors modified and they need a way to make a living honestly.

There's a European country thst has an elaborate reintroduction program with very high success rates.

The last year or two are spent in cottages where they prepare their own meals with food the get from the onsite store. They work and receive a small wage.

It teaches them how to "live" like a normal person, to have pride in their home, work at a job and enjoy the benefits thereof, I think they even teach them how to live on a budget, pay bills on time, etc.

VERY high success rate with a variety of offenders.

I agree that the proven animals should be permanently segregated from the women and children.

For everybody else, the more incarceration resembles real life, especially towards the end of sentences, the more likely inmates are to successfully reintegrate.

I alao think criminal records should should largely, eventually be sealed. With appropriate safeguards, of course. Embezzlers should have a "tag" for jobs where they could embezzle again, no sex offenders at the child care place, etc.

As it is now, we make the bad worse and "break" the salvageable once and for all.

 

[APACHERAT]

Hey I was one of those surfers and that board looks familiar. :lol:

Did you get mouthy one day with one of my Marines ? It could be your board.

I started surfing Trestles around 1966. Surfed it when I was stationed at Pendleton and kept surfing Trestles in to the late 70's. By then the Corps leased it to the state.

By 1971 the Marine Corps had confiscated so may boards that were never retrieved that they could have opened the world's largest surf shop.

You know how surfers are when it comes to waves and especially when Trestles is breaking. If the MP's showed up, stay out in the water, the only thing they could do was call in the Navy. But when a surfer acted like a A-hole, the SOP was issue a citation for trespassing and confiscate the board if he had big cajones and mouthed off.

It almost happened to me a couple times and I was a Marine sergeant.

You were issued a citation for trespassing and you had a court date at Pendleton. I think the fine was $25, it might have been a little higher. After you paid your fine you could retrieve your board at the PMO.

The MP's were suppose to clear the beach but were more interested in the girls. Any time girls are around a Marine, your mission kind of goes in the crapper. Surfers figured it out and started bringing their girl friends with them and they could surf all day.