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Pride Month! I celebrate.

Scarecrow Akhbar

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Singularity

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Yeah well guess what, unrelated couples with inheritable genetic disorders can marry, so I guess according to your argument this means incest should be legal.

People with inheritable genetic disorders comprise a very small % of marriages, so they are, once again, benign exceptions which prove the rule against incest.

If we have to ban those unrelated people with inheritable genetic disorders from marrying so that we can stop incest, fine, let's ban them. If we have to ban infertile couples from marrying also, fine, let's ban them.

The argument that recognizing same-sex marriage means recognizing incestuous unions strongly resembles the now-discredited argument that legalizing same-gender sex means legalizing incest. “With whom can you legally have sex?” differs not so much from “Whom can you legally marry?” In the 2003 case Lawrence v. Texas, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled unconstitutional laws prohibiting sexual intimacy between people of the same sex. That decision did not trigger a movement to legalize incest.

Nor will such a movement ever arise. However much affection a brother may have for his sister, it does not much limit his potential field of satisfactory mates to prohibit him from marrying her. By sharp contrast, most gays or lesbians cannot have fully satisfying loving marriages with someone of the opposite sex — just as exclusively heterosexual people cannot have fully satisfying loving marriages with someone of the same sex. Denying those gays and lesbians the right to marry someone of the same sex means denying them the right ever to have a fully satisfying loving marriage with anyone, not just with a particular person (as with incest) but with anyone.


Do you even realize what you just said?

I do. If you disagree with my position, i'd love to hear why. The question was certainly valid and deserving of a response.


Fine, ban them.

Based on your response, does this mean you are for prohibiting marriage to heterosexual couples who are either incapable of procreation or choose not to? If so, we disagree here as well. Furthermore, I was under the impression that, while you do not endorse gay marriage, you are not against it, either. So I am perplexed at why you would be more willing to eliminate heterosexuals from marriage based on this criteria, rather than simply include same-sex couples into the institution.


At least we agree that your point was random and off topic :2wave:

No, we don't agree to that. I disagree with your position, I made a logical statement to the contrary, and that's where we are currently. My point was neither random nor off topic.

However, we probably both agree that these little smileys that wave are pretty cool. :2wave:
 

Inferno

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Are all gays banned from donating organs, or only gay men?

I think it is all which is really asinine to the max. Lesbians have fewer STD's then any other group on the planet.
 

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Are all gays banned from donating organs, or only gay men?

I'm not sure what the current standards are. Lesbians are an extremely low-risk group for HIV/AIDS, so if they are excluded from donation this should be rectified as it makes no sense.

Gay men, however, are a high-risk group, as such the Red Cross excludes them from donation not because they're afraid of spreading AIDS but because it's a matter of cost-effectiveness.

Testing blood for diseases is not cheap, and if you have to throw away blood after it's been tested you've effectively thrown away your money. By precluding high-risk groups from donating (persons visiting Africa within the last six months, Haitian citizens, gay men), the Red Cross increases the cost-effectiveness of doing business by decreasing the amount of wasted tests and equipment.
 

Redress

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I think it is all which is really asinine to the max. Lesbians have fewer STD's then any other group on the planet.

That was the point I was getting at, yes.
 

Singularity

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Just because the two are connected does not mean that there is not a massive and important difference between procreation and raising children. Infertile couples and couples with inheritable genetic disorders, much like homosexual couples, are more than capable of raising children they have acquired by other means.

My opposition to incestuous unions is not based on genetics, and I do not believe that the laws which prohibit them should be based on genetics, either-- unfortunately, the laws and the majority of the populace disagree with me on this issue, just as they seem to disagree with me on nearly every issue pertaining to family relationships.

In any case, it is not necessary for the institution to only promote those relationships which provide a healthy environment for children, only to promote those relationships which tend to. The fact that intentionally childless couples can be married does not detract from marriage being the best condition in which to raise children, and thus does not detract from the government having a legitimate interest in promoting marriage.

True, but this argument does not offer a defense against the inclusion of homosexuals into the institution. In fact, you seem to agree with my position here. Homosexual couples are certainly capable of raising children and providing a loving household for children to flourish, and if the government's responsibility lies with ensuring this is the case, then there is no dilemma unless one believes that homosexual couples do not provide this sort of environment.

What would you say that the government's interest in marriage is, then? For what other reason should the government subsidize and extend special privileges to certain kinds of relationships between adults?

My argument is not to analyze the supposed purpose of government's endorsement of marriage; rather, my argument is about the philosophical reasoning behind the exclusion of homosexual couples from participating in the institution. Regardless of what the government's purpose is in endorsing the union, it does not change the fact that it does so through legal recognition of it. Therefore, homosexuals are free to inquire as to why they cannot change the so-called traditional definition of marriage to incude themselves.

After all, in order to argue that homosexuals should be allowed, we have to accept the point that heterosexual marriage is a valid social institution and that the government has a legitimate reason to encourage it. As much as I am vehemently opposed to the position, several people have stepped forward and claimed that the government has no business in marriage whatsoever.

That's certainly an acceptable response, one i'm sure many homosexuals as well as heterosexuals would agree with.

I can defend marriage-- whether it is equal opportunity or not-- on the grounds of providing the healthiest and most stable home environment for children. I can probably defend it on a few other grounds, though my argument will be shakier. I think anyone would be hard pressed to defend marriage on no grounds whatsoever, and that appears to be all you're offering to counter mine and Jerry's position.

No. My position has been and always will be the philosophical arguments behind such an exclusion, and if they are warranted. If they are, there must be a morally solid, virtually ironclad argument against such unions from taking place. Otherwise, the argument remains.

Nice debate, btw.
 

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I'm not sure what the current standards are. Lesbians are an extremely low-risk group for HIV/AIDS, so if they are excluded from donation this should be rectified as it makes no sense.

Gay men, however, are a high-risk group, as such the Red Cross excludes them from donation not because they're afraid of spreading AIDS but because it's a matter of cost-effectiveness.

Testing blood for diseases is not cheap, and if you have to throw away blood after it's been tested you've effectively thrown away your money. By precluding high-risk groups from donating (persons visiting Africa within the last six months, Haitian citizens, gay men), the Red Cross increases the cost-effectiveness of doing business by decreasing the amount of wasted tests and equipment.

Lesbians are the lowest for any STD's Period. Even lower then heterosexual married women.
 

joko104

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The cost of what it is and can be like to be lesbian and gay is not even close to that of a hetero relationship. The idea that you could be a pariah from even your own family and friends. I have seen people lose all their close contacts as they came out.

Endless stories as to the end of same sex relationships ending in the death os one partner by suicide because of the rejection of their partner because they are afraid to come out and be counted.

Pride and self respect was the early answer to these problems. If because you were lesbian or gay you were into self loathing it was hard to stand up and be counted. The idea behind gay pride was to stand together and be mocked as the many with love and support all around there is no pain that can't be overcome. It stemmed a growing tide yet death still comes at a high rate of suicide.

Pride is still the answer self respect is what the tool is. It comes from knowing the LGBT community cares about your life.

So I celebrate every year that I am queer. I made one more year in the fold of the hated.
I suspect you rage at others using the word "queer" about you.

Once again you give reason to consider homosexuality a dangerous mental disturbance.

Contrary to belief, no one has to like you. No one has to like anyone. In fact, all of us have the right to dislike anyone for any reason or no reason at all.

That seems something just asserted past on this forum. No one has to like gays or anyone else. The only restriction is not commiting crimes against people you don't like. If someone kills themselves because they are rejected by someone else it is not the someone else who victimized that person. The person victimized themself.

No one is more insulted and rejected than fat kids. Yet I don't see anyone lamenting fat kid suicides. If someone who is gay commits suicide because they are rejected and if this happens in mass numbers like you claim, then you have made the strongest possible case that homosexuality is a dangerous, even life threatening, mental disorder that isn't normalcy at all.
 

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I suspect you rage at others using the word "queer" about you.

Once again you give reason to consider homosexuality a dangerous mental disturbance.

Contrary to belief, no one has to like you. No one has to like anyone. In fact, all of us have the right to dislike anyone for any reason or no reason at all.

That seems something just asserted past on this forum. No one has to like gays or anyone else. The only restriction is not commiting crimes against people you don't like. If someone kills themselves because they are rejected by someone else it is not the someone else who victimized that person. The person victimized themself.

No one is more insulted and rejected than fat kids. Yet I don't see anyone lamenting fat kid suicides. If someone who is gay commits suicide because they are rejected and if this happens in mass numbers like you claim, then you have made the strongest possible case that homosexuality is a dangerous, even life threatening, mental disorder that isn't normalcy at all.

Nope I am what I am. I have it tattooed on my arm so I know what I am.
Fat kids are not rejected by there families and sent away from the house as perverts that parents don't understand. It is a difference. Hey I had to have the hospital test to see if i was sane when I was 15. I know what it is like to be a pariah. I am sure there are other gays and lesbians on here that experienced the same things I did.
 

Redress

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A good point as well. Lesbians are also the coolest people on the planet as well. hehehehehe:lol:

Some of my favorite people in the world are lesbians.
 

Dr_Patrick

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Read the last few posts, it's plain.

Yeah, all I see is you making baseless assertions. That's why I was asking for proof.

Care to provide the countervaling logic that refutes them?

Irrelevant to the issue of the mental disorders presented, as already discussed.

It's obvious that you hold extreme views in regards to homosexuality, so it is pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with you about it. There's nothing I'm going to say to convince you otherwise, nor is there anything you can say that's going to suddenly make me not bisexual.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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Yeah, all I see is you making baseless assertions. That's why I was asking for proof.

So, what you're saying is that you lack the ability to follow the logic of elementary statements and you want some man to hold your hand for you.

I'm not that kind of a guy.

It's obvious that you hold extreme views in regards to homosexuality,

It's obvious that I know what words mean and use them correctly.

It's obvious you know what some words mean and object to their proper usage.

So I ask you, do you believe homosexuality is caused by:

A) Genetic defect?
B) Developmental deviation caused by environmental factors?
C) Personal choice of freewill?

I've already explained the implications of each.

Which option do you choose? Are you able to invent a fourth option? That would be entertaining.

so it is pointless trying to have a reasonable conversation with you about it.

I'm having a reasonable conversation.

It's not reasonable for you to expect me to abandon a lifetime of rational thought and careful weighing of meaning and concept simply to lower myself to your level of prejudice, bigotry, and misconceptions.

There's nothing I'm going to say to convince you otherwise,

So you're admitting you're not capable of rational argument.

nor is there anything you can say that's going to suddenly make me not bisexual.

I don't recall stating any such goal. Are you afraid that if you learn how to be rational you'll stop having the urge for amateur proctology checks with unorthodox equipment?
 
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Dr_Patrick

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So, what you're saying is that you lack the ability to follow the logic of elementary statements and you want some man to hold your hand for you.

I'm not that kind of a guy.

Elementary statements? Don't you mean baseless assertions which you've still yet to back up with anything concrete? Plenty of people claim that homosexuality is a mental disorder, but they all share one common bond in that they can't find anything concrete to back up their absurd claims. I'd rather not get into a serious debate with someone whose argument is a joke to begin with.

It's obvious that I know what words mean and use them correctly.

It's obvious you know what some words mean and object to their proper usage.

So I ask you, do you believe homosexuality is caused by:

A) Genetic defect?
B) Developmental deviation caused by environmental factors?
C) Personal choice of freewill?

I've already explained the implications of each.

Yes you did, and you've yet to offer any proof to back up your assertions. Am I just supposed to take your word for it as if you are an expert on the subject? :rofl Give me a break.

Which option do you choose? Are you able to invent a fourth option? That would be entertaining.

Personally, I could care less what the reasons are. All I know is that some people are attracted to men, some are attracted to women and others are attracted to both. It may not be the "norm", but they are happy consenting adults so I don't see what the problem is. I could care less what you want to classify it as.

I'm having a reasonable conversation.

It's reasonable according to your standards, which obviously includes making baseless assertions and then debating said topics as if they are gospel because you said so.

It's not reasonable for you to expect me to abandon a lifetime of rational thought and careful weighing of meaning and concept simply to lower myself to your level of prejudice, bigotry, and misconceptions.

I don't expect anything of you. I honestly could care less what you believe. If I did care, I would be interested in engaging in a reasonable discussion with you about the topic.

So you're admitting you're not capable of rational argument.

I'll make one the moment you can come up with one. All I've seen thus far from you are baseless assertions.

I don't recall stating any such goal. Are you afraid that if you learn how to be rational you'll stop having the urge for amateur proctology checks with unorthodox equipment?

:rofl Don't flatter yourself. There's nothing you can say that will convince me or anyone here to change their sexual orientation. See, we are confident in our sexuality. Obviously, you are struggling with yours otherwise you wouldn't see a need to try and attack and bring down a sexual orientation that has absolutely nothing to do with you.

BTW, this discussion (if one could even really call it that) is over. Have fun with yourself.
 
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I suspect you rage at others using the word "queer" about you.

Once again you give reason to consider homosexuality a dangerous mental disturbance.

How about some evidence of it being a mental disorder... otherwise, than you for your ignorant opinion! :2wave:
 

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Some of my favorite people in the world are lesbians.

Mine too, just not the man hating dykes though... they are simply angry and mean.
 

Dr_Patrick

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Mine too, just not the man hating dykes though... they are simply angry and mean.

I met a man-hating lesbian once. She actually liked me, though, because I had heard of Valerie Solanas and the SCUM Manifesto.
 

Redress

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So, what you're saying is that you lack the ability to follow the logic of elementary statements and you want some man to hold your hand for you.

I'm not that kind of a guy.

So you are the kind of guy who makes wildly unlikely statements, pass them off as fact, and refuse to back up those statements.

Gotcha.
 

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I met a man-hating lesbian once. She actually liked me, though, because I had heard of Valerie Solanas and the SCUM Manifesto.

I have known a few man hating lesbians in my life. Most of them at one time or another had some kind of run in or abusive problem with a male. It seemed not really to be a lesbian thing. It may have had something to do with their being lesbian that the problem arose.

I have never hated men. I find them funny and engaging and nice to pal around with. I like gay men because they are like GF's that can lift heavy things. (JK) I sometime say things in a way that men think i don't like them. I just don't like the ones that think they are all it and a bag of chips.

I just Love you Dr Patrick you are great.
 

Dr_Patrick

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I have known a few man hating lesbians in my life. Most of them at one time or another had some kind of run in or abusive problem with a male. It seemed not really to be a lesbian thing. It may have had something to do with their being lesbian that the problem arose.

I completely understood where she was coming from, though. Her stepfather had molested her several times while she was growing up and she had been in a lot of abusive relationships with men before coming out. It would be hard not to hate men after that.

I have never hated men. I find them funny and engaging and nice to pal around with. I like gay men because they are like GF's that can lift heavy things. (JK) I sometime say things in a way that men think i don't like them. I just don't like the ones that think they are all it and a bag of chips.

Amen to that. So many men are like that too, which is unfortunate.

I just Love you Dr Patrick you are great.

Thank you very much. That means a lot to me. :)
I think that you are great as well!
 

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I completely understood where she was coming from, though. Her stepfather had molested her several times while she was growing up and she had been in a lot of abusive relationships with men before coming out. It would be hard not to hate men after that.



Amen to that. So many men are like that too, which is unfortunate.



Thank you very much. That means a lot to me. :)
I think that you are great as well!

I think people think that man hating is a lesbian trait. I find it more uncommon than the reverse. As I said and you confirmed that it has something to do with the nature of the male female relationships that these women have had. It is the same for some gay guys where they have had bad abusive relationships with a female in their life and hate women.

The thing that I find funny is that all these researches that are trying to figure what it is that makes one gay or bi or straight never ask the people that know. I can tell you why some lesbians hate men in 10 minutes. They will spend years and do a million surveys and still be unsure. If the want to know if I was born lesbian just ask. I can answer and it is not rocket science. I was born lesbian. I have no idea why. I just was. Would I choose to have most of my relatives hate me. Would I choose to be an outcast at school and work. Why would I pick being lesbian. That would be saying I am really stupid and like pain and hatred in my life.
 

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I think people think that man hating is a lesbian trait. I find it more uncommon than the reverse. As I said and you confirmed that it has something to do with the nature of the male female relationships that these women have had. It is the same for some gay guys where they have had bad abusive relationships with a female in their life and hate women.

I think some think of lesbians as man haters because it is easier to marginalize them that way. Same thing is done with feminists and "feminazi". You label the group by the extreme, and are able to dismiss them easier.
 
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