Price Gouging Oil Companies Should Pay A Windfall Tax = Bring it on!

[KLATTU]

Revenues from the windfall-profits tax would go to working-class individuals and families in the form of payments ranging from $240 to $360 a year, according to Whitehouse’s office.

To prevent multinational energy conglomerates from jacking up prices and shifting expenses to consumers, the Whitehouse plan would exempt small companies from the new tax, giving them the flexibility to charge prices lower than the oil giants’.

Another option would be to impose the price controls that Sanders suggests.

Whatever the precise approach, action needs to be taken.

“The fossil fuel industry should not be allowed to take advantage of a crisis by artificially hiking prices and collecting a massive windfall,” said Whitehouse after Biden announced the Russian oil embargo.

A windfall-profits tax can help to address the immediate crisis, argued the senator.

Ultimately, however, “it is clear we have to get off the fossil fuel merry-go-round controlled by a corrupt cartel,” Whitehouse added. “There can be no ‘energy independence’ as long as we power our economy with commodities whose prices are determined by global events beyond our control.”

Price-Gouging Oil Companies Need to Pay a Windfall Tax

Prices at the pump are shooting up as oil companies turn massive profits. A windfall-profits tax could go a long way toward providing relief for working families.

www.thenation.com

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More blah blah from far left gadfy.
"GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT GOVERNMENT. Vote for Dems, we'll fix everything"ZZZZZZZZZ

 

[US&THEM]

More blah blah from far left gadfy.
"GOVERNMENT, GOVERNMENT GOVERNMENT. Vote for Dems, we'll fix everything"ZZZZZZZZZ

How many market monopolies are enough for you?

 

[bave]

So Biden was right after all. He compared historical oil prices with fuel prices — neither of them inflation adjusted, which is fair — but now you're saying he was wrong for not adjusting ONE (the retail price). Inflation adjusted, oil has gotten cheaper so fuel should too.

Last time oil was $96 a barrel, gas was $3.62 a gallon. Now it’s $4.31. -- Biden

Want to try again?

U.S. All Grades All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Dollars per Gallon)

Last time crude was at ~$96/bbl was around January of 2014 according to the charts and at that time gas was $3.39/gal retail.

Recently crude passed that mark in late Feb, the 21st.

US Retail Gas Price

In depth view into US Retail Gas Price including historical data from 1993 to 2023, charts and stats.

ycharts.com

Gasoline price on the 22nd was $3.62

So apples to apples from $96/bbl in 2014 to $96/bbl in 2022 the price went from $3.39/gal to $3.62. I think it is beyond fair to assume there has been at least a 7% inflation in operating costs for gasoline in the interventing 8 years.

Let me know where that gouging is again.

 

[KLATTU]

How many market monopolies are enough for you?

How much government control of the free market is enough? Maybe we should nationalize the whole industry

 

[Ug make hammer]

U.S. All Grades All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Dollars per Gallon)

Last time crude was at ~$96/bbl was around January of 2014 according to the charts and at that time gas was $3.39/gal retail.

Recently crude passed that mark in late Feb, the 21st.

US Retail Gas Price

In depth view into US Retail Gas Price including historical data from 1993 to 2023, charts and stats.

ycharts.com

Gasoline price on the 22nd was $3.62

Heh-hem. The chart shows the March 14th price at $4.41 and Biden's tweet was dated March 16th

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you used whatever was in your source. Retail fuel is public knowledge but crude oil price is something you have to pay for.

So apples to apples from $96/bbl in 2014 to $96/bbl in 2022 the price went from $3.39/gal to $3.62. I think it is beyond fair to assume there has been at least a 7% inflation in operating costs for gasoline in the interventing 8 years.

Let me know where that gouging is again.

Using the more up-to-date figure from your own (second) source, that would be "inflation" of 30% not 7%

If or when you try again, bear in mind that even at $2.62 most of the price of gasoline went to paying for the crude:

Our consumption of Russian oil is not a factor when the market is global.
If the price goes up for those buying oil, it goes up for everyone.
We need to consider the cost of the raw material in each gallon of gasoline.
Each 42 gallon barrel of oil can make about 35 gallons of gasoline, so oil at
$80 a barrel has a raw material cost of $80/35 =$2.28 per gallon.
Oil at $120 a barrel, has a raw material cost of $120/35 =$3.42 per gallon.
Refining, Distribution and Taxes, add about $1.23 per gallon, so if oil was at $120 a barrel,
the expected gasoline price would be about $4.65 per gallon.
What’s behind the price of gasoline?

I think your fundamental error here is thinking the POTUS account is the ramblings of Biden himself. Am I close?

 

[longview]

I think your fundamental error here is thinking the POTUS account is the ramblings of Biden himself. Am I close?

No, I did not say anything about Biden's comment!
The price of oil accounts for over half of the cost of each gallon of gasoline, the raw material cost.
A barrel of oil can produce about 35 gallons of gasoline, so if oil is at $100 a barrel,
then $100/35 =$2.86 of each gallon of gasoline is the raw material costs.
Add in the $1.23 from refining, distribution, and taxes, and you get gasoline at over $4.00 a gallon.

 

[Ug make hammer]

No, I did not say anything about Biden's comment!

I beg your pardon. I cut out a bit where I said "bear in mind this from @longview" and all that remains is a colon.

The price of oil accounts for over half of the cost of each gallon of gasoline, the raw material cost.

Over half, at $2.62. MUCH over half at $4.41

A barrel of oil can produce about 35 gallons of gasoline, so if oil is at $100 a barrel,
then $100/35 =$2.86 of each gallon of gasoline is the raw material costs.
Add in the $1.23 from refining, distribution, and taxes, and you get gasoline at over $4.00 a gallon.

Your source is from 2019 which is a bit dated.

West Texas Intermediary is at $1.03 so currently they're making $4.41 - $2.94 - $1.23 = $0.24 per gallon (5.4%), which I grant you is not gouging.

 

[longview]

I beg your pardon. I cut out a bit where I said "bear in mind this from @longview" and all that remains is a colon.



Over half, at $2.62. MUCH over half at $4.41



Your source is from 2019 which is a bit dated.

West Texas Intermediary is at $1.03 so currently they're making $4.41 - $2.94 - $1.23 = $0.24 per gallon (5.4%), which I grant you is not gouging.

You missed a few decimals there, West Texas Intermediary is at $103.00, and they get 35 gallons from a barrel,
then the raw material cost of each gallon is, $103/35=$2.94, and then we add on the cost of refining, distribution and taxes.
The added cost was $1.23 in 2019, and of course the wages of refinery workers and truck drivers have gone up, so that number is higher now.

 

[Ug make hammer]

You missed a few decimals there, West Texas Intermediary is at $103.00, and they get 35 gallons from a barrel,
then the raw material cost of each gallon is, $103/35=$2.94, and then we add on the cost of refining, distribution and taxes.
The added cost was $1.23 in 2019, and of course the wages of refinery workers and truck drivers have gone up, so that number is higher now.

I got the decimal right in the calculation, that's what counts.

You seem to be saying they're running at a loss now. I don't believe that. More likely they're still buying oil at old prices and aren't paying spot.

 

[longview]

I got the decimal right in the calculation, that's what counts.

You seem to be saying they're running at a loss now. I don't believe that. More likely they're still buying oil at old prices and aren't paying spot.

I never said they were running at a loss, I said the pump price is not too far off from what it should be at the current price of oil.
The idea that they are price gouging is hyperbole.

 

[code1211]

Luxury and Indiana never belong in the same sentence.

Well...

The elitist blurts out more hate!

Good for you!

 

[bave]

Heh-hem. The chart shows the March 14th price at $4.41 and Biden's tweet was dated March 16th

Ok, maybe, but the price of crude also shot to north of $130/bbl as well. That's why I am comparing apples to apples, $96 crude to $96 crude. You are trying to compare $96 crude from 8 years ago to $130 crude today. Yea, that's either dishonest or retarded.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you used whatever was in your source. Retail fuel is public knowledge but crude oil price is something you have to pay for

Those two sources show you the price between crude and retail gasoline. From the last time we saw $96/bbl crude to this time we saw it there was a change of ~7% in retail gasoline prices. That's gouging?

Using the more up-to-date figure from your own (second) source, that would be "inflation" of 30% not 7%

First off, as I previously illustrated, apples and oranges. You can't compare $130 crude to $96 crude, that's also not what the POTUS's handler wrote.

If or when you try again, bear in mind that even at $2.62 most of the price of gasoline went to paying for the crude:

Crude oil tends to make up about 55-60% of the cost in gasoline production. 7% inflation over 8 years even on the remaining ~40% of cost is remarkable.

I think your fundamental error here is thinking the POTUS account is the ramblings of Biden himself. Am I close?

I don't think anything that is communicated from the White House has anything to do with Biden.

 

[Ug make hammer]

Ok, maybe, but the price of crude also shot to north of $130/bbl as well. That's why I am comparing apples to apples, $96 crude to $96 crude. You are trying to compare $96 crude from 8 years ago to $130 crude today. Yea, that's either dishonest or retarded.



Those two sources show you the price between crude and retail gasoline. From the last time we saw $96/bbl crude to this time we saw it there was a change of ~7% in retail gasoline prices. That's gouging?



First off, as I previously illustrated, apples and oranges. You can't compare $130 crude to $96 crude, that's also not what the POTUS's handler wrote.



Crude oil tends to make up about 55-60% of the cost in gasoline production. 7% inflation over 8 years even on the remaining ~40% of cost is remarkable.



I don't think anything that is communicated from the White House has anything to do with Biden.

That's about the best I expect from you. Folksy little comments like "apples to oranges" instead of a re-do on the math. You don't like math, I get it.

 

[bave]

That's about the best I expect from you. Folksy little comments like "apples to oranges" instead of a re-do on the math. You don't like math, I get it.

You are comparing the price of gasoline at $130 a barrel to that of gasoline when it was $96/barrel. I gave you the math, the sources, you ignored them and made up your own comparison that isn't even remotely similar.

 

[Ug make hammer]

You are comparing the price of gasoline at $130 a barrel to that of gasoline when it was $96/barrel. I gave you the math, the sources, you ignored them and made up your own comparison that isn't even remotely similar.

Except crude oil isn't at $130 a barrel, it's at $103 a barrel. I don't care at this point, you're not the only poster to struggle with multiplication and division.

See @longview's approach. It persuaded me rather quickly, and I've already conceded the point. Oil companies do not appear to be gouging at this time. You're just trying to make me concede again, as though it was your brilliant reasoning which persuaded me. It wasn't.

 

[bave]

Except crude oil isn't at $130 a barrel, it's at $103 a barrel. I don't care at this point, you're not the only poster to struggle with multiplication and division.

See @longview's approach. It persuaded me rather quickly, and I've already conceded the point. Oil companies do not appear to be gouging at this time. You're just trying to make me concede again, as though it was your brilliant reasoning which persuaded me. It wasn't.

I don't really care that I am correct, I knew that in the beginning. My issue is that you are using incredibly unethical approaches to try and make a point. You can't say "Look at gas at $4.41/gal" when that was after a spike to $130/bbl and comparing that to when gas was $3.39/gal and crude was at $96, 8 years ago. If you want to compare gas prices today when crude banged out at $130/bbl then compare it against previous times the crude price was in that neighborhood.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Even before Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine shocked energy markets and sent oil prices to over $100 a barrel, Exxon was banking obscene profits. On February 1, the Texas-based fossil fuel giant announced profits of almost $9 billion for the fourth quarter of 2021—its biggest take in seven years.​

Exxon didn’t have to party alone; Chevron, Shell, and BP were announcing surpluses of only slightly less startling proportions.

“Combined, the four companies raked in $24.4 billion in quarter four of 2021, bringing their total profits for last year to over $75.5 billion. Chevron, Shell, BP, and Exxon used these bloated profits to shower billions onto their shareholders—including their wealthy executives whose salaries are heavily padded with stocks,” reported the watchdog group Accountability.US.

“In 2021, the four companies bought back over $6.6 billion in stocks while hiking up their dividends. And the oil giants are planning for an ‘even better’ 2022 for shareholders, with plans already in place to buyback over $22 billion in stock thanks to high oil prices.”

In fact, 2022 could be dramatically better for Exxon and the other major oil companies.

Price-Gouging Oil Companies Need to Pay a Windfall Tax

Prices at the pump are shooting up as oil companies turn massive profits. A windfall-profits tax could go a long way toward providing relief for working families.

www.thenation.com

​

​

And a couple of years ago oil companies were going broke. It’s a boom and bust business.

 

[Ug make hammer]

I don't really care that I am correct, I knew that in the beginning. My issue is that you are using incredibly unethical approaches to try and make a point. You can't say "Look at gas at $4.41/gal" when that was after a spike to $130/bbl

AFTER a spike, but also AFTER oil price fell to about $100. That's not unethical, it's just being up to date.

and comparing that to when gas was $3.39/gal and crude was at $96, 8 years ago. If you want to compare gas prices today when crude banged out at $130/bbl then compare it against previous times the crude price was in that neighborhood.

Or since it's your argument, how about you do it for me?

I'm losing patience with your attempts to claim credit for @longview's work. I've conceded the point central to the thread. I was wrong.

I am not going to give you credit, particularly after you made us all sit through pages of "I'm right" vs. "No, I'm right". You understand that it's unbearably boring for anyone but yourself?

 

[bave]

AFTER a spike, but also AFTER oil price fell to about $100. That's not unethical, it's just being up to date.

Give me a break. You are trying to make the data fit your narrative however you need to justify it. It is grossly unethical and transparent to boot.

Or since it's your argument, how about you do it for me?

All the information is on the charts I previously provided. It shows you historical WTI prices and retail gas prices. You can clearly see the prices today are in line with comparable trends and movements with crude. It takes the unethical hoop-jumping we see here to try to reach any other conclusion that you have finally been forced to realize was idiotic after 8 pages of idiocy.

 

[Ug make hammer]

Give me a break. You are trying to make the data fit your narrative however you need to justify it. It is grossly unethical and transparent to boot.




All the information is on the charts I previously provided. It shows you historical WTI prices and retail gas prices. You can clearly see the prices today are in line with comparable trends and movements with crude. It takes the unethical hoop-jumping we see here to try to reach any other conclusion that you have finally been forced to realize was idiotic after 8 pages of idiocy.

Dance around claiming victory all you like. It was @longview not you who persuaded me.

 

[bave]

Dance around claiming victory all you like. It was @longview not you who persuaded me.

For the third time, I don't care who convinced you that you were wrong. I care that you continue to try and manipulate data in an unethical way to support a false idea.

 

[Ug make hammer]

For the third time, I don't care who convinced you that you were wrong. I care that you continue to try and manipulate data in an unethical way to support a false idea.

You used figures from the wrong date, but I didn't accuse you of "unethical" manipulation. I gave you credit for doing your best in the time available.

I've decided to retract that. I conceded to @longview but because you just couldn't leave it there, I'm re-entering the debate with you.

You were unwilling to spend the time necessary and you got WRONG results. Which I will now demonstrate.

POTUS claim (16th Mar) :

"Last time oil was $96 a barrel, gas was $3.62 a gallon. Now it's $4.31"

Biden has used the Mar 15 price, but I'll overlook that. It's 60c different from Mar 16.

WTI Crude Oil Prices - 10 Year Daily Chart

Interactive chart showing the daily closing price for West Texas Intermediate (NYMEX) Crude Oil over the last 10 years. The prices shown are in U.S. dollars.

www.macrotrends.net

WTI oil was $96 a barrel on Aug 25th 2014.
Using West Texas Intermediary because it is half of all oil refined in the US.

Weekly U.S. Regular All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Dollars per Gallon)

Fuel prices in that week (2014) were between $3.51 and $3.55. Let's say $3.53

The POTUS claim is UNDERSTATED.

Now as to inflation. Using @longview's reasonable claim that other costs do not vary when the crude oil price varies, ("Refining, Distribution and Taxes, add about $1.23 per gallon" Oct 2019) we have to adjust that BOTH WAYS for inflation. You might care to do this from scratch but I don't mind trusting Longview who is usually right about things.

CPI Inflation Calculator

www.bls.gov

$1.23 in 2014 dollars is $1.21
$1.23 in 2022 dollars is $1.44 (using Feb 22 since Mar 22 is not available)

We see that 23c of the difference is inflation of (non-crude) costs.

2014: $3.53 - (oil cost) - $1.21 = (2014 profit)
2022: $4.31 - (oil cost) - $1.44 = (2022 profit)

(2022 profit) = $2.87 - $2.32 + (2014 profit)
(2022 profit) = (2014 profit) + $0.55 per gallon

 

[bave]

You were unwilling to spend the time necessary and you got WRONG results. Which I will now demonstrate.

Your analysis is so dysfunctional it is comical.

Look, I will make it super easy for you. Just go read Valero's K's and Q's. They will spell it out for you in actual dollars and cents. That's the refinery angle. If you want the upstream angle then look at a pure play US producer like Devon and pull their financial statements.

Both of these will show the exact same things.

 

[Ug make hammer]

Your analysis is so dysfunctional it is comical.

Look, I will make it super easy for you. Just go read Valero's K's and Q's. They will spell it out for you in actual dollars and cents. That's the refinery angle. If you want the upstream angle then look at a pure play US producer like Devon and pull their financial statements.

Both of these will show the exact same things.

Your concession is accepted. Thanks!

 

[Razoo]

Even before Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine shocked energy markets and sent oil prices to over $100 a barrel, Exxon was banking obscene profits. On February 1, the Texas-based fossil fuel giant announced profits of almost $9 billion for the fourth quarter of 2021—its biggest take in seven years.​

Exxon didn’t have to party alone; Chevron, Shell, and BP were announcing surpluses of only slightly less startling proportions.

“Combined, the four companies raked in $24.4 billion in quarter four of 2021, bringing their total profits for last year to over $75.5 billion. Chevron, Shell, BP, and Exxon used these bloated profits to shower billions onto their shareholders—including their wealthy executives whose salaries are heavily padded with stocks,” reported the watchdog group Accountability.US.

“In 2021, the four companies bought back over $6.6 billion in stocks while hiking up their dividends. And the oil giants are planning for an ‘even better’ 2022 for shareholders, with plans already in place to buyback over $22 billion in stock thanks to high oil prices.”

In fact, 2022 could be dramatically better for Exxon and the other major oil companies.

Price-Gouging Oil Companies Need to Pay a Windfall Tax

Prices at the pump are shooting up as oil companies turn massive profits. A windfall-profits tax could go a long way toward providing relief for working families.

www.thenation.com

​

​

The sooner the better ...........