Presidential Legacies

[RightOfCenter]

Maximus, did you give up on this thread?

 

[FreeThinker]

In the wake of Gerald Ford's death, I can't help but consider his legacy and those who want to already give President Bush his legacy before history has a chance to define it.

After Watergate, Ford enjoyed extremely high poll numbers. He proclaimed Watergate "our long national nightmare" and he was correct, so it isn't hard to understand why his numbers were so good. However, his poll numbers collapsed several months later after pardoning Nixon. The nation was in immediate viper mode. How could he do this? How could he pardon Nixon after what Nixon had put this country through. What cronyism, the nation shouted.

Then time went on...as must happen before anyone's legacy can be defined.

Last week was full of tributes to Gerald Ford and rightly so. It was very interesting to hear politicians, media broacasters and ordinary civilians make remarks on Ford's legacy. All of them made sure to mention, that while it was unpopular at the time, the pardoning of Richard Nixon proved to be what led our nation to heal and to put the "national nightmare" to rest. All of them said his legacy couldn't have been understood then, but was plain as day now.

For those who press so hard to define President Bush's legacy before history has a chance to unfold, I say you are woefully ignorant (innocently ignorant and I mean it with no condescension). Whether you agree with a war in Iraq or not, whether you agree with his stance on terror or not, none of us know how the last chapter in the Middle East will be written. If the region never finds it's way, never achieves a democratic stronghold and remains mired in turmoil, then the Bush legacy will be clear. It the region finds it's way, establishes peace and democracy, the Bush legacy will be equally as clear.

50 years from now when terrorists fighting for some wacko cause blow up a building somewhere people are going to say "time to resurrect Bush".

I think his name will always be equated with fighting terrorism, just like Kennedy will always be equated with civil rights.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Obviously you don't understand much about Americans, Maximus. If someone hits us we are going to hit the **** back. Afghanistan was a good idea, and, unfortunately for Bush, Iraq wasn't. We also have yet to kill Osama Bin Laden, another failure of the Bush administration, but he does have two more years. Off topic a bit, where exactly in Western Europe are you from?

I do understand Americans, but I dont like that particular view you are talking about. A "general type" of enemy attacks you, not a country, its not really possible to hit back without causing more damage, which you have done.
Not only will the war in Iraq be remembered in the future as a scandal, but it will be the single greatest cause of an explosion of terrorist activities, it will be blamed for terrorist organizations easy access to new recruits and their increased funding towards cause of destruction.
Terrorism aint a disease, stupidity IS, and heck if there is a more stupid guy in politics or todays news than Bush(itler) please let me know.

But never a large one on American soil. The American public would be MUCH more pissed with Bush if he had done nothing then they are now with what he has done.

Like I said, he could have had a high profile at home, raising the NATIONAL security(AT HOME) and readiness beyond imaginable and been a popular president. He did a little of that, but far from enough, he choose to fucus on making the world a more dangerous place.

I wouldn't know, I'm not an expert on terrorist recruitment or Islam, but I would think that combined military, police, and intelligence actions are making it harder and harder for them every day. Also, just because our military is a focus right now doesn't mean that increased security at home isn't happening.

Think again, use logic thinking.. Just like a terrorist attack would piss of Americans and raise their patriotism, an attack against an islam country or islam itself will do the exact same thing for extreme muslims.
Like a terrorist attack in America may get Americans to say "****, I want to join the army and kill these bastards", the same thing will happen in extreme muslim "quarters" and thus increase the number of terrorists.
Like Americas defence budget was increased after 911, the funding for terrorism also was and will be even more.

Simple logic.. It might be bad or horrible, but its reality.

 

[RightOfCenter]

I do understand Americans, but I dont like that particular view you are talking about. A "general type" of enemy attacks you, not a country, its not really possible to hit back without causing more damage, which you have done.

Osama bin Laden and al-Quaeda are a general type of enemy? The use of the word "terrorist" has become synonomous with OBL and AQ. I also hardly think you understand Americans.

Not only will the war in Iraq be remembered in the future as a scandal,

Agreed.

but it will be the single greatest cause of an explosion of terrorist activities,

More so than the creation of Israel? I think you're mistaken.

it will be blamed for terrorist organizations easy access to new recruits and their increased funding towards cause of destruction.
Terrorism aint a disease, stupidity IS, and heck if there is a more stupid guy in politics or todays news than Bush(itler) please let me know.

And the US is constantly trying to stop the funding that allows them to function. BTW Nice play on the Hitler thing, funny...I guess...
:roll:

Like I said, he could have had a high profile at home, raising the NATIONAL security(AT HOME) and readiness beyond imaginable and been a popular president. He did a little of that, but far from enough, he choose to fucus on making the world a more dangerous place.

You are making this statement with the assumption that the US government is doing nothing in our country to prevent terrorism. If this is true why have we not been attacked again?

Think again, use logic thinking.. Just like a terrorist attack would piss of Americans and raise their patriotism, an attack against an islam country or islam itself will do the exact same thing for extreme muslims.
Like a terrorist attack in America may get Americans to say "****, I want to join the army and kill these bastards", the same thing will happen in extreme muslim "quarters" and thus increase the number of terrorists.
Like Americas defence budget was increased after 911, the funding for terrorism also was and will be even more.

I think you mean muslim country. Also, terrorist organizations rely on donations and crime to fund their endeavors, and the US is actively striving to block this funding. Whether or not we are succeeding, I don't know, but the bottom line is, we can block their funding, they can not block ours.

 

[Iriemon]

50 years from now when terrorists fighting for some wacko cause blow up a building somewhere people are going to say "time to resurrect Bush".

I think his name will always be equated with fighting terrorism, just like Kennedy will always be equated with civil rights.

20 years from now when some Iraq whose dad was killed in Bush's war blows himself up in a Washington DC square, somewhere people are going to say "time to bury Bush."

His name will always be equated with the worst foreign policy fiasco in US history.

 

[CurrentAffairs]

His name will always be equated with the worst foreign policy fiasco in US history.

Crystal Ball again? :lol:

Just like Ford was going to be remembered as the putz who pardoned Nixon, right? As history unfolded, that vanished and by the time he was laid to rest, the nation had come to know the wisdom behind his decision. No one could have predicted, just as you can't now.

 

[Iriemon]

Crystal Ball again? :lol:

Just like Ford was going to be remembered as the putz who pardoned Nixon, right? As history unfolded, that vanished and by the time he was laid to rest, the nation had come to know the wisdom behind his decision. No one could have predicted, just as you can't now.

Fair enough. Then nor can Free Thinker.

Though I mostly remember Ford as the guy who let Nixon off the hook. What else did he accomplish as president? He did little to stop the inflation problem(remember the "win" buttons?). He had the bad luck to preside over one of the worst recessions in the second half of the 20th century, and I can't recall any significant foreign policy achievements. I think he wanted to continue supporting South Vietnam but Congress pulled the plug, but I don't have detailed knowledge of that.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Crystal Ball again? :lol:

Just like Ford was going to be remembered as the putz who pardoned Nixon, right? As history unfolded, that vanished and by the time he was laid to rest, the nation had come to know the wisdom behind his decision. No one could have predicted, just as you can't now.

It is possible to predict, economists do it all the time for example.

I can predict for example that nanotechnology will be a very important technology in the future. I can also predict that Space technology will become the biggest industry on earth centuries from now. I cannot say that for certain because other factors play in like armageddon, for all we know humans can put themselves thousands of years back in time in less than 1 hour. But the probability is high.

Some people say you can predict the future from history, others say you can predict the future from current events and logical conclusions.

I say you can use all knowledge available and "predict" a very likely outcome of current events and history and how it will unfold.. So.. NO magic crystal but a bit of knowledge can help you far.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Osama bin Laden and al-Quaeda are a general type of enemy? The use of the word "terrorist" has become synonomous with OBL and AQ. I also hardly think you understand Americans.

Terrorism is not synonymous with Al Queda and Bin Laden, maybe it is in uneducated minds, but the reality is quite different. There are many terrorist organization and many funders of terrorism, they will become more and that is almost a certainty.

More so than the creation of Israel? I think you're mistaken.

Very good point, I would say "maybe, maybe not"

And the US is constantly trying to stop the funding that allows them to function. BTW Nice play on the Hitler thing, funny...I guess...
:roll:

Its not possible to stop the funding, the best proof of that is the "war on drugs"..(although the funding is very different)

You are making this statement with the assumption that the US government is doing nothing in our country to prevent terrorism. If this is true why have we not been attacked again?

You haven't, but its only been 6 years, I can guarantee that someone is planning something far worse every day, maybe someone will succeed..
Did you hear of the Americans who got cought planning to blow up several skyscrapers in large US cities? They got pretty far and was about to execute, but luckily they were stopped.
Most of them were African americans, but they are Americans just like whites are. So who knows.

I think you mean muslim country. Also, terrorist organizations rely on donations and crime to fund their endeavors, and the US is actively striving to block this funding. Whether or not we are succeeding, I don't know, but the bottom line is, we can block their funding, they can not block ours.

i sure did mean muslim countries.. They do rely on that, but they are also getting it. Did you know that the black markets of the world are larger than the US economy?
No, I think you are wrong, there is no way you can block the funding, if you managed that, the funding will change and it will be terrorists and normal people themselves who fund it instead of rich bastards.
Terrorists are very adaptable.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Terrorism is not synonymous with Al Queda and Bin Laden, maybe it is in uneducated minds, but the reality is quite different. There are many terrorist organization and many funders of terrorism, they will become more and that is almost a certainty.

Yes, terrorism is actually an activity to sow chaos and get your way, but for all intents and purposes terrorism today is synonomous with AQ and OBL

Very good point, I would say "maybe, maybe not"

Well, I would say that "Most probably, and well...probably not but maybe"

Its not possible to stop the funding, the best proof of that is the "war on drugs"..(although the funding is very different)

The funding is very different

You haven't, but its only been 6 years, I can guarantee that someone is planning something far worse every day, maybe someone will succeed..
Did you hear of the Americans who got cought planning to blow up several skyscrapers in large US cities? They got pretty far and was about to execute, but luckily they were stopped.
Most of them were African americans, but they are Americans just like whites are. So who knows.

And they didn't succeed. If another terrorist attack happens while Bush is in power I'll admit you're right.

i sure did mean muslim countries.. They do rely on that, but they are also getting it. Did you know that the black markets of the world are larger than the US economy?

Proof and link please.

No, I think you are wrong, there is no way you can block the funding, if you managed that, the funding will change and it will be terrorists and normal people themselves who fund it instead of rich bastards.
Terrorists are very adaptable.

The funding will be blocked and so will any new funding, I have faith in that.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Proof and link please.

The funding will be blocked and so will any new funding, I have faith in that.

NationMaster - Statistics > Informal economy by country

For example, the US informal economy is 8.8 % of GDP, which is already a trillion dollars.
South American economies have on average almost 50% informal economies.

Germany have almost 20%, ca 400 billion.
Italy 27%, 300-400 billion.. Loads of countries in Europe with GDP above 500 billion have informal economies of 20% or more.

I would estimate based on the stats I linked to that Europe has a 20% informal economy at least, 2-3 trillion.


Its not exactly the US GDP, but not far from, and certainly close to 10 trillion.

Think of Asia for example.

IF 25% of world GDP is informal, it would be 11 trillion, if 10% is informal which it AT LEAST is, it would be 4.3 trillion. So I can only assume that when calculating in Asias probable high informal economies it would be at least 7 trillion, but probably between 7-10 trillion.

No matter what number is correct you can assume that out of a black economy of 10%(very low estimate), or 4.5 trillion, the terrorists have plenty of funds they can get hold of which would be impossible to stop. And yes, correctly guessed, most terrorists would be among those operating in the informal economy.

Just saying.. Stopping the funds seem really unlikely even if you find "the accounts" of known funders.

 

[RightOfCenter]

NationMaster - Statistics > Informal economy by country

For example, the US informal economy is 8.8 % of GDP, which is already a trillion dollars.
South American economies have on average almost 50% informal economies.

Germany have almost 20%, ca 400 billion.
Italy 27%, 300-400 billion.. Loads of countries in Europe with GDP above 500 billion have informal economies of 20% or more.

I would estimate based on the stats I linked to that Europe has a 20% informal economy at least, 2-3 trillion.


Its not exactly the US GDP, but not far from, and certainly close to 10 trillion.

Think of Asia for example.

IF 25% of world GDP is informal, it would be 11 trillion, if 10% is informal which it AT LEAST is, it would be 4.3 trillion. So I can only assume that when calculating in Asias probable high informal economies it would be at least 7 trillion, but probably between 7-10 trillion.

No matter what number is correct you can assume that out of a black economy of 10%(very low estimate), or 4.5 trillion, the terrorists have plenty of funds they can get hold of which would be impossible to stop. And yes, correctly guessed, most terrorists would be among those operating in the informal economy.

Just saying.. Stopping the funds seem really unlikely even if you find "the accounts" of known funders.

From your own web site, "DEFINITION: The easiest definition of the informal economy is: Street traders and street vendors; Itinerant or seasonal or temporary job workers on building sites or road work; and those in between the streets and home,(e.g. waste collectors)"
Not exactly what I would call black market operations. :roll:

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

From your own web site, "DEFINITION: The easiest definition of the informal economy is: Street traders and street vendors; Itinerant or seasonal or temporary job workers on building sites or road work; and those in between the streets and home,(e.g. waste collectors)"
Not exactly what I would call black market operations. :roll:

True enough, but the point is that there is plenty of money to take from that are not on bank accounts.. The black economy is part of the informal economy.. drug trade alone is valued at around 400 billion annually, so the total would be close to maybe 1 trillion in drugs, prostitution and illegal arms trade for example.

Doesnt take more than a few hundred quids to make a bomb, doesnt take more than a few hundred thousand to organize a large terrorist attack.

I would estimate the price of making a nuclear strike, acquiring the weapons planning and attacking would cost perhaps 5 million dollar. This is nothing.
Not that this is easy, but just roughly I would believe this to be true, without knowing to much about it and assuming a little too much.

However, the informal economy is where the terrorists belong, and they can easily get money there.

 

[RightOfCenter]

True enough, but the point is that there is plenty of money to take from that are not on bank accounts.. The black economy is part of the informal economy.. drug trade alone is valued at around 400 billion annually, so the total would be close to maybe 1 trillion in drugs, prostitution and illegal arms trade for example.

Doesnt take more than a few hundred quids to make a bomb, doesnt take more than a few hundred thousand to organize a large terrorist attack.

I would estimate the price of making a nuclear strike, acquiring the weapons planning and attacking would cost perhaps 5 million dollar. This is nothing.
Not that this is easy, but just roughly I would believe this to be true, without knowing to much about it and assuming a little too much.

However, the informal economy is where the terrorists belong, and they can easily get money there.

Regardless of the actual cost of terrorist attacks, a certain amount of money will always be necessary to fund attacks. Whether an attack costs $10,000 or $500,000, terrorists still need money, and will therefore leave a financial trail behind them. And unlike human sources, which can intentionally deceive, Levey notes “The simple fact remains that the money trail generally does not lie.” Stemming the flow of funds can delay or prevent attacks—even when the costs of bullets and explosives remain relatively low.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2389

There is also more in the article about where terrorist organizations actually get the money, having said nothing about the black market.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Regardless of the actual cost of terrorist attacks, a certain amount of money will always be necessary to fund attacks. Whether an attack costs $10,000 or $500,000, terrorists still need money, and will therefore leave a financial trail behind them. And unlike human sources, which can intentionally deceive, Levey notes “The simple fact remains that the money trail generally does not lie.” Stemming the flow of funds can delay or prevent attacks—even when the costs of bullets and explosives remain relatively low.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2389

There is also more in the article about where terrorist organizations actually get the money, having said nothing about the black market.

Thats the thing, I dont think they leave a trace, because they can use the black market or informal economy. Terrorists are adaptable, and if I know this can be done, I am sure the terrorists know much more and is already using such methods.

 

[FreeThinker]

20 years from now when some Iraq whose dad was killed in Bush's war blows himself up in a Washington DC square, somewhere people are going to say "time to bury Bush."

His name will always be equated with the worst foreign policy fiasco in US history.

Vietnam. The Bay of Pigs. The Cuban Missile Crisis.

History chose to overlook all those things and focus on Kennedy's championing of the civil rights movement.

Presidents tend to be remembered for their positive impact. Bush rallying America after a national tragedy and liberating two dictatorships will be his legacy.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Thats the thing, I dont think they leave a trace, because they can use the black market or informal economy. Terrorists are adaptable, and if I know this can be done, I am sure the terrorists know much more and is already using such methods.

Informal markets are not the same thing as the black market. I would assume that the black market is a place where people make money selling illegal things, shadowy business men, not fanatics who want to be sent to Allah. Also, Osama bin Laden funded AQ through his own business, not the black market.

 

[Iriemon]

Vietnam. The Bay of Pigs. The Cuban Missile Crisis.

History chose to overlook all those things and focus on Kennedy's championing of the civil rights movement.

Presidents tend to be remembered for their positive impact. Bush rallying America after a national tragedy and liberating two dictatorships will be his legacy.

What happened to CurrentAffairs?

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

Informal markets are not the same thing as the black market. I would assume that the black market is a place where people make money selling illegal things, shadowy business men, not fanatics who want to be sent to Allah. Also, Osama bin Laden funded AQ through his own business, not the black market.

The point is that there is plenty of money for terrorists to take from.

 

[RightOfCenter]

The point is that there is plenty of money for terrorists to take from.

I disagree, the United States is actively striving to cut off the lifeblood of terrorist actions, funding. Like it says in the article I linked, every terrorist act leaves behind a money trail that can be followed.

 

[Maximus Zeebra]

I disagree, the United States is actively striving to cut off the lifeblood of terrorist actions, funding. Like it says in the article I linked, every terrorist act leaves behind a money trail that can be followed.

yeah, and the war on drugs was won;;; So was the Iraq war when major combat was over;;

:ind:

 

[RightOfCenter]

yeah, and the war on drugs was won;;; So was the Iraq war when major combat was over;;

:ind:

Yes it was, I'm glad you agr...hey wait a minute, was that sarcasm? Oh, you and your crazy European wit!