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Preamble: Final discussion thread before vote [W:45]

sangha said:
I have gone through the discussion thread concerning the Preamble and pulled out all of the Preambles that various members have suggested (listed below). This thread is for a final discussion of these suggestions before we actually vote on a Preamble and by final suggestion, I mean

1) Statements by the writers of preambles explaining what the words of their preamble mean

2) Questions to the writers of preambles asking what the words of their preamble mean and the writers responses to those questions

3) The submission of new suggestions for those who have yet to post their suggestion

Here are the suggestions that have been made so far. If anyone's suggestion has been left out, please let me know

​Vasuderatorrent's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


Bigfoot88's suggestion:
We the citizens of the sovereign States, in order to accomplish together what is more difficult apart, do authorize a consensual union of limited powers, codified by this Constitution of the United States of America. ​


Sangha's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


AlbqOwl suggestion:
We the people, in order to ensure peaceful cooperation and commerce between the various sovereign states, provide the common defense, promote justice and the general welfare without prejudice or favoritism, and secure the unalienable rights and blessings of liberty for every citizen, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.


​
jet57 suggestion
We The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish equal justice; insure and protect domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote and ensure the general welfare of all of our citizens, promote the arts and sciences and secure the blessings of our equal liberty and freedoms for all our citizens and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States.​


gdgyva suggestion
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, establish Equity under the law, provide for the national defense of our nation, promote the general welfare for all citizens, and secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


ernst barkmann suggestion
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general Welfare of that Union, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


rabbitcaebannog suggestion

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union and to insure domestic tranquility shall establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


Federalist suggestion
We, the peoples of the ratifying states, in order to form a voluntary union, do establish this constitution for a federation to be known as The United States of America.​
Click to expand...

I like a lot of these! Jet has a provision around promoting arts & science - would like to see that incorporated in some of the others - maybe in Sangha's?

(I have a hard time voting for any suggestion with "blessings" in it - Sangha's avoids that but has lots of other good stuff)
 
OrphanSlug said:
We seem to have too many suggestions but some that are close to each other in wording. Is there an opportunity to get this down to 3-4 options to then vote on?
Click to expand...

The main difference is between those that believe the government knows what is good for the citizens and those that do not mention the pursuit of happiness at all. That is rather startling. Basically most of the proposals are socialist and want the government pursuing the citizens happiness and not the citizens themselves.
 
sangha said:
I have gone through the discussion thread concerning the Preamble and pulled out all of the Preambles that various members have suggested (listed below). This thread is for a final discussion of these suggestions before we actually vote on a Preamble and by final suggestion, I mean

1) Statements by the writers of preambles explaining what the words of their preamble mean

2) Questions to the writers of preambles asking what the words of their preamble mean and the writers responses to those questions

3) The submission of new suggestions for those who have yet to post their suggestion

Here are the suggestions that have been made so far. If anyone's suggestion has been left out, please let me know

​Vasuderatorrent's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


Bigfoot88's suggestion:
We the citizens of the sovereign States, in order to accomplish together what is more difficult apart, do authorize a consensual union of limited powers, codified by this Constitution of the United States of America. ​


Sangha's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


AlbqOwl suggestion:
We the people, in order to ensure peaceful cooperation and commerce between the various sovereign states, provide the common defense, promote justice and the general welfare without prejudice or favoritism, and secure the unalienable rights and blessings of liberty for every citizen, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.


​
jet57 suggestion
We The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish equal justice; insure and protect domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote and ensure the general welfare of all of our citizens, promote the arts and sciences and secure the blessings of our equal liberty and freedoms for all our citizens and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States.​


gdgyva suggestion
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, establish Equity under the law, provide for the national defense of our nation, promote the general welfare for all citizens, and secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


ernst barkmann suggestion
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general Welfare of that Union, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


rabbitcaebannog suggestion

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union and to insure domestic tranquility shall establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


Federalist suggestion
We, the peoples of the ratifying states, in order to form a voluntary union, do establish this constitution for a federation to be known as The United States of America.​
Click to expand...

I don't see any preamble among the proposals that is even close to as good as the one of the US Constitution.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
The Preamble was written in the last days of the Convention, by the Committee of Style: Alexander Hamilton, William Samuel Johnson, Rufus King, James Madison, and Gouverneur Morris. The wording was not discussed by the body of delegates, and seemed to be largely an afterthought.

So again why are we determined to write the damn thing first? And why the hell do people want to change the most famous 52 words of American history?

The fact that you guys want to change the preamble alarms me. It tells me that you dont believe in Americanism, that you want sweeping changes (based on the rough drafts and the discussions). I will be blunt, I believe in Americanism, and will steadfastly stand in the way of sweeping changes to our Constitution. Above all I am a patriot, a believer in the preamble, in the Constitution, A Constitutionalist. I believe that the Constitution could use some modernizing not disrespected and thrown on the floor and trampled as if it were no good.

Self serving fantasies of partisan hackery will never create anything good, only conflict. The acceptance of diversity of thought can be exploited for the greater good of society. We the people make up a ever expanding variety of thought, of ideas, culture and beliefs. When we work together to expand this diversity we do great things as a nation. Each of us as individuals have a toe in society, contributing to it, supplying society with the means of progress, and compassion. We take the best of the ideas provided through compromise realizing that we all have to live together. Our sacrifices are rewarded with societal tranquility, justice, liberty and freedom.
Click to expand...



what people are trying to do is define a new preamble to fit their idea.

1 some, want it to be inclusive of the people, ensure their health, and prosperity.

2 others want it to maintain its external powers of securing and managing the union as a whole.
 
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joG said:
I don't see any preamble among the proposals that is even close to as good as the one of the US Constitution.
Click to expand...

Umm, the first one *is* the one in the US Constitution

joG said:
The main difference is between those that believe the government knows what is good for the citizens and those that do not mention the pursuit of happiness at all. That is rather startling. Basically most of the proposals are socialist and want the government pursuing the citizens happiness and not the citizens themselves.
Click to expand...

By my count, 5 of 9 were submitted by right wingers.
 
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My proposal:

We the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Almighty God to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
 
sangha said:
Umm, the first one *is* the one in the US Constitution



By my count, 5 of 9 were submitted by right wingers.
Click to expand...

Ummm, .... maybe I was a little distracted there. Sorry.

On the other thing, I still feel that the government is being asked to do broad a license to do things that are not public goods or the regulation of externalities.
 
Paleocon said:
My proposal:

We the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Almighty God to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Click to expand...

The subject of your preamble is "the United States" which makes it the "actor" here. It is the United States, and not people, who is deciding what powers it shall have and will "ordain" its' own decisions.
 
joG said:
Ummm, .... maybe I was a little distracted there. Sorry.
Click to expand...

No prob. We all have those moments

On the other thing, I still feel that the government is being asked to do broad a license to do things that are not public goods or the regulation of externalities.
Click to expand...

What is suggested by that fact that you find even the ones suggested by right wingers (most of whom are pretty far to the right) too "socialistic" for your tastes?
 
sangha said:
The subject of your preamble is "the United States" which makes it the "actor" here. It is the United States, and not people, who is deciding what powers it shall have and will "ordain" its' own decisions.
Click to expand...

Actually I meant it in the plural. As in, the United States are the actors in this preamble.

Mine is more realistic than claiming that the people are the ones creating the constitution.
 
sangha said:
No prob. We all have those moments



What is suggested by that fact that you find even the ones suggested by right wingers (most of whom are pretty far to the right) too "socialistic" for your tastes?
Click to expand...

I will look at the details again tomorrow.
But you do realize that what are widely referred to as the right and left both have considerable affinity to intrusive centralized government.
 
Paleocon said:
Actually I meant it in the plural. As in, the United States are the actors in this preamble.

Mine is more realistic than claiming that the people are the ones creating the constitution.
Click to expand...

Then what you mean is "We, the ratifying states" because they are not *the* united (they are soveriegn, are they not?) states and your language still leaves them in the position of making the decisions, not people (which confirms that they are sovereign)

And that doesn't make much sense because it's those of us here who are creating this constitution, not any state govts.
 
sangha said:
Then what you mean is "We, the ratifying states" because they are not *the* united (they are soveriegn, are they not?) states and your language still leaves them in the position of making the decisions, not people (which confirms that they are sovereign)

And that doesn't make much sense because it's those of us here who are creating this constitution, not any state govts.
Click to expand...

"The states" refers to the states. United is used as a descriptive term. And yes, it is sovereign entities that make law.

"The people" would not make much sense either. I was going on the assumption we weren't going to reference ourselves in this, else it would be "we the DP members who voted yes in PirateMK1's poll".
 
Paleocon said:
"The states" refers to the states. United is used as a descriptive term. And yes, it is sovereign entities that make law.
Click to expand...

I guess capitalizing it is what threw me off. Adjectives in the middle of a sentence are usually not capitalized unless they're part of a proper noun.

"The people" would not make much sense either. I was going on the assumption we weren't going to reference ourselves in this, else it would be "we the DP members who voted yes in PirateMK1's poll".
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I guess what's throwing me is the concept that the power to set law comes from states and not the people. You are the first one to propose the idea that power flows from the state and not the people.
 
sangha said:
Please read the OP. This thread isn't about whether we are going to write a preamble. That was determined by a vote. If you are so passionate about the outcome and consequences of that vote, maybe you should have voted in the poll (which you did not).
Click to expand...

We voted for writing a preamble? I cant seem to find a thread where we voted for writing a preamble. The only thing that I found that comes close is this one:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/dp-constitutional-convention/210546-poll-setting-priorities.html

I did not see how the one that got 16 votes was really a official determination that we were going to write a preamble now. From the discussion and the wording it wasnt a clear vote result like you make it sound.

"Work on a Mission Statement/First Principles/Goals etc" That doesnt at all say preamble now does it? It says that 16 people want some kind of outline that states our collective goals and what we think we should be constructing. But we never voted to write a damn preamble FFS.

But since we have no official rules to fall back on, I guess as president you can do wtf you want and no member of this convention can stop you. Only 35 people voted in that poll, 19 voted against "Work on a Mission Statement/First Principles/Goals etc" that is a minority that won. You spoke of moving forward past writing rules so that the members of this convention dont lose interest. I cant imagine a easier way for us to lose members than having no rules. Either we do this the right way or we should just all forget this experiment and not waste anymore time.
 
Paleocon said:
My proposal:

We the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Almighty God to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Click to expand...

I wish you had participated in the thread re the discussion of the preamble, rather than offering up one here at this late date. Personally, I would not vote for your proposal; I don't want blessings of any imaginary being myself, and others may want a different god from what you want.

But hey, that's just my opinion.
 
Moderator's Warning:
In fact, everyone needs to stop derailing the thread.
 
I am going to bow out of any further discussion concerning this entire topic. When I originally decided to participate I thought the idea was to try to come up with a constitution that would offer protections that anyone, from any country, would want to live under. As discussions developed, it became increasingly clear that the participants are primarily interested in trying to rewrite the U.S. constitution. This is an exercise that does not interest me in the least.


Enjoy the fun.

Cheers

rjay
 
sangha said:
Here are the suggestions that have been made so far. If anyone's suggestion has been left out, please let me know

​Vasuderatorrent's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​
Timeless classic.
Aside from it's iconic status, I lean towards this one because V man suggested it.
He got this CC thing started in the first place.


Bigfoot88's suggestion:
We the citizens of the sovereign States, in order to accomplish together what is more difficult apart, do authorize a consensual union of limited powers, codified by this Constitution of the United States of America. ​
Not bad.
Simple and direct.


Sangha's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​
Pretty much the same as the original with more modern wording.


AlbqOwl suggestion:
We the people, in order to ensure peaceful cooperation and commerce between the various sovereign states, provide the common defense, promote justice and the general welfare without prejudice or favoritism, and secure the unalienable rights and blessings of liberty for every citizen, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.


​
Good.


jet57 suggestion
We The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish equal justice; insure and protect domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote and ensure the general welfare of all of our citizens, promote the arts and sciences and secure the blessings of our equal liberty and freedoms for all our citizens and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States.​
Good.
Arts and sciences promotion probably won't happen, but their promotion could be considered part of the general welfare.
No libertarians will accept this.


gdgyva suggestion
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, establish Equity under the law, provide for the national defense of our nation, promote the general welfare for all citizens, and secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​
Good.


ernst barkmann suggestion
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general Welfare of that Union, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​
Trying to limit the general welfare clause, eh?
Not necessarily a bad idea.


rabbitcaebannog suggestion

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union and to insure domestic tranquility shall establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​
Good.


Federalist suggestion
We, the peoples of the ratifying states, in order to form a voluntary union, do establish this constitution for a federation to be known as The United States of America.​
Simple and direct.
Potential secessionists will love it.
Click to expand...

,,,,,,,,,,
 
Thanks for your comments, radioman!

I do agree there are several good ones.

I chuckled at "Potential secessionists will love it." - agree, which is why I personally won't vote for that one!
 
sangha said:
I have gone through the discussion thread concerning the Preamble and pulled out all of the Preambles that various members have suggested (listed below). This thread is for a final discussion of these suggestions before we actually vote on a Preamble and by final suggestion, I mean

1) Statements by the writers of preambles explaining what the words of their preamble mean

2) Questions to the writers of preambles asking what the words of their preamble mean and the writers responses to those questions

3) The submission of new suggestions for those who have yet to post their suggestion

Here are the suggestions that have been made so far. If anyone's suggestion has been left out, please let me know

​Vasuderatorrent's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


Bigfoot88's suggestion:
We the citizens of the sovereign States, in order to accomplish together what is more difficult apart, do authorize a consensual union of limited powers, codified by this Constitution of the United States of America. ​


Sangha's suggestion:
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, to establish equal treatment and protection under the law for all, to insure peace among its citizens, to provide for the national defense and security of our nation, to promote the prosperity, safety and health of its' citizens, and to secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


AlbqOwl suggestion:
We the people, in order to ensure peaceful cooperation and commerce between the various sovereign states, provide the common defense, promote justice and the general welfare without prejudice or favoritism, and secure the unalienable rights and blessings of liberty for every citizen, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.


​
jet57 suggestion
We The People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish equal justice; insure and protect domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote and ensure the general welfare of all of our citizens, promote the arts and sciences and secure the blessings of our equal liberty and freedoms for all our citizens and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States.​


gdgyva suggestion
We the People of the United States, in order to form a better society, establish Equity under the law, provide for the national defense of our nation, promote the general welfare for all citizens, and secure liberty to ourselves and the future citizens, do establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


ernst barkmann suggestion
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, and promote the general Welfare of that Union, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


rabbitcaebannog suggestion

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union and to insure domestic tranquility shall establish justice, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.​


Federalist suggestion
We, the peoples of the ratifying states, in order to form a voluntary union, do establish this constitution for a federation to be known as The United States of America.​
Click to expand...

We the people who presume to represent the people of the United States of America suggest that these articles be accepted in a referendum of eligible voters nationwide and if accepted we say that these articles be called the Constitution of the United States and that no law shall ever be passed at any level within the United States that contradicts these articles. Should this referendum fail this committee will be dismissed and a new committee formed to produce a new set of articles and should that set of articles fail to be accepted in referendum the United States of America will be considered to be dissolved and each State will be a sovereign nation.
`
 
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