Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

Bodi · Jul 12, 2023

This argument is only for places/States where Abortion is 100% Legal.
This is also not about how the law currently is... but in modifying the law.

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes.

- Women currently have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.
- Men currently do not have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.

Right now, women have all of the power over their pregnancy, and that is how it should be. They can have the child or not have the child. That is how it should be.

Women should be able to have sex, get pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want (abort the child) if they want to, and they have this right.

Men should be able to have sex, get a woman pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want if they want to, but they do not have this right.

Currently men are bound to whatever choice a woman makes post conception. She can walk away, and he cannot walk away. This is unequal.

What many have proposed is essentially the following:

- Man and woman have sex.
- Woman gets pregnant.

Woman has options:

- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and aborts
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but never gets financial help from him
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but then later hits him up for financial help
- Woman informs man of pregnancy and wants no financial support as they have some sort of joint custody
- Woman informs many of pregnancy and wants financials support from the man (Option 5)

If the 5th one happens the man should get some choices. At this point the man has options:

- Man agrees to pay and has some sort of custody
- Man agrees to pay and has no role in the child’s life
- Man does not agree to pay for anything and wants nothing to do with her or the child (Option 3)

If he chooses Option 3 then the woman has options again:

- Woman has an abortion
- Woman gives the baby up for adoption
- Woman has the child and pays for it herself

It is pretty simple.

This is post-conception opt-out that makes it equal for everybody.

As always, we will see posts from people that make the claim that if the man has options that the woman is being controlled. That is not the case. She has all the power over her body and pregnancy. At no time does the man have any power to have her abort or to not abort.

We might see people conflate the argument… insisting that biology and law can not be separated. That is utterly ridiculous. This is about post-conception. She is already pregnant. It is about Choice. There is no child at this point and there never is a child in this argument. Those that insist that there is are lying.

We might see the worst type of debate… the man has to pay and gave up all his rights once he came even though she did not give up her rights.

Anyway… thoughts?

Davin · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
This argument is only for places/States where Abortion is 100% Legal.

Which state has abortion being legal (under any circumstances) 100% of the pregnancy?

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

This again? Why when you refuse to acknowledge the actual rights that children have that your 'opt-out' does not supersede?

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

Davin said:
Which state has abortion being legal (under any circumstances) 100% of the pregnancy?

There are a few but women dont choose (elect) abortions of healthy, viable fetuses, so it really doesnt matter. They dont happen in any states. The entire country Canada has no such limits...and they dont happen.

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
This is post-conception opt-out that makes it equal for everybody.

...the man has to pay and gave up all his rights once he came even though she did not give up her rights.

What rights are not equal? Please identify them. What rights is he giving up? And women have no right to abortion. We're now just "allowed" to have them in some states. So sayeth Dobbs.

Bodi said:
As always, we will see posts from people that make the claim that if the man has options that the woman is being controlled. That is not the case. She has all the power over her body and pregnancy. At no time does the man have any power to have her abort or to not abort.

It is coercion, emotional manipulation...it's the man telling the woman that he'll walk away if she chooses to keep the kid. Several people have pointed this out to you, including VG. It's the guy telling her he'll dump her if she has the kid. Because he knows the 'opt-out' farce will not hold up in court. I dont accord a lot of respect to women that fall for this either but Love/sex makes people vulnerable.

Visbek · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
Anyway… thoughts?

Oh, so many. But we can start with your proposal being nowhere near as new or unique as you might think. Male chauvinists, sexists, misogynists, "Men's Rights Advocates" or whatever they're called these days have made this kind of bullshit claim for many, many years.

Let's make this very simple: Men aren't the ones getting pregnant. Men's bodies are not being radically altered by pregnancy. Men are not the one whose lives are at risk from pregnancy and childbirth. That's why they don't get to choose.

If you're a man, and you don't want the responsibility of child support? Don't get a woman pregnant.
Duh.

By the by, your proposal would not make the situation even remotely "equal." It's a pass for men to be Deadbeat Dads, and it's stupendously clear who benefits -- and why it's always men, and not women, who keep bitching about policies like this not being in place.

Bodi · Jul 12, 2023

Davin said:
Which state has abortion being legal (under any circumstances) 100% of the pregnancy?

I did not say 100% of the pregnancy... I said 100% legal. The Green States...

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
Anyway… thoughts?

That it's still the same BS and men arent giving up anything:

You ignore the fact that the state continues to protect the best interests of the child and would not stop the father from contacting the kid later (or the kid contacting the father) because we all know that it's in the best interests of children to have both parents involved in their lives. Even if the mother doesnt want it. There are states where they allow rapists to apply for visitation and custody of their kids when they are released from prison...so 'regular' guys wont be prevented. So no 'contract' would stop this.

So there's no opt-out...it's men choosing to be a dad when and if they feel like it. The cries of 'it's not equal' are BS.

You have never addressed this reality. It shoots another hole in your deadbeat thread idea.

Bodi · Jul 12, 2023

Visbek said:
Oh, so many. But we can start with your proposal being nowhere near as new or unique as you might think. Male chauvinists, sexists, misogynists, "Men's Rights Advocates" or whatever they're called these days

Insults right out of the gate. Weak.

Visbek said:
have made this kind of bullshit claim for many, many years.

I am Pro-choice and I have made this argument for many many years...

Visbek said:
Let's make this very simple: Men aren't the ones getting pregnant. Men's bodies are not being radically altered by pregnancy. Men are not the one whose lives are at risk from pregnancy and childbirth. That's why they don't get to choose.

Wrong. They do not get to choose because the law does not allow them a choice.

Visbek said:
If you're a man, and you don't want the responsibility of child support? Don't get a woman pregnant.
Duh.

If you are a woman and you do not want the responsibility of a child then don't have sex with a man. See? Works both ways.

Visbek said:
By the by, your proposal would not make the situation even remotely "equal."

It makes it 100% Equal. Both the man and the woman would get a Post-Conception Opt-Out. Equal.

Visbek said:
It's a pass for men to be Deadbeat Dads,

It is almost like you didn't even read the OP. LOL

Visbek said:
and it's stupendously clear who benefits -- and why it's always men, and not women, who keep bitching about policies like this not being in place.

Nobody here is bitching.... except maybe you, at this point. *shrug*

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
This argument is only for places/States where Abortion is 100% Legal.
This is also not about how the law currently is... but in modifying the law.

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes.

It's about the welfare of the child...and the real idea here is to try and manipulate women into having the abortion, since they know they cant actually force women to do so.

Here you go, all about the law:

And yet, since she can still have it no matter what they sign or agree to, IF there's a child, it's about the child's statutory right to child support.

Child Support is a statutory right that actually "belongs" to the child. Neither the egg donor nor the sperm donor can "contract out" of their liability under the laws that grant the statutory right to child support.

So anything 'pre-conception' or 'pre-birth' is useless...if there's a child, their statutory right supersedes the contract or law.

"No matter what situation gives rise to the need for child support, it might help to think of the legal right to child support as being possessed by a child (which it technically is), for his or her proper care and upbringing, regardless of who actually receives child support payments.

The fact that the custodial parent has a high income does not itself justify deviation from the guidelines, because under the law children have the right to benefit from both parents' incomes."

Child Support Basics - FindLaw

Because in the United States nearly half of all marriages end in divorce and almost one-fourth of all children are born to unmarried parents, the regulation of child support is an important social issue. Learn about the basics of child support, and more, at FindLaw's Child Support section.

www.findlaw.com

--And--

A child’s right to receive parental support is inherent and cannot be waived by either party. Regardless of the parents’ relationship with one another (whether married, divorced, separated, or never married), as long as paternity has been established, both parents are on the hook for child support. Regardless of any arrangement—such as “trading” spousal support for child support—both parents still have a legal obligation to support the child.

Can You Waive Child Support? | Law Office of Heath L. Baker

Can you waive child support in Riverside? If you want an experienced family law attorney on your side, contact Heath Baker Law. Call us for a FREE consult!

heathbakerlaw.com

jpevans · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
This argument is only for places/States where Abortion is 100% Legal.
This is also not about how the law currently is... but in modifying the law.

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes.

- Women currently have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.
- Men currently do not have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.

Right now, women have all of the power over their pregnancy, and that is how it should be. They can have the child or not have the child. That is how it should be.

Women should be able to have sex, get pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want (abort the child) if they want to, and they have this right.

Men should be able to have sex, get a woman pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want if they want to, but they do not have this right.

Currently men are bound to whatever choice a woman makes post conception. She can walk away, and he cannot walk away. This is unequal.

What many have proposed is essentially the following:

- Man and woman have sex.
- Woman gets pregnant.

Woman has options:

- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and aborts
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but never gets financial help from him
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but then later hits him up for financial help
- Woman informs man of pregnancy and wants no financial support as they have some sort of joint custody
- Woman informs many of pregnancy and wants financials support from the man (Option 5)

If the 5th one happens the man should get some choices. At this point the man has options:

- Man agrees to pay and has some sort of custody
- Man agrees to pay and has no role in the child’s life
- Man does not agree to pay for anything and wants nothing to do with her or the child (Option 3)

If he chooses Option 3 then the woman has options again:

- Woman has an abortion
- Woman gives the baby up for adoption
- Woman has the child and pays for it herself

It is pretty simple.

This is post-conception opt-out that makes it equal for everybody.

As always, we will see posts from people that make the claim that if the man has options that the woman is being controlled. That is not the case. She has all the power over her body and pregnancy. At no time does the man have any power to have her abort or to not abort.

We might see people conflate the argument… insisting that biology and law can not be separated. That is utterly ridiculous. This is about post-conception. She is already pregnant. It is about Choice. There is no child at this point and there never is a child in this argument. Those that insist that there is are lying.

We might see the worst type of debate… the man has to pay and gave up all his rights once he came even though she did not give up her rights.

Anyway… thoughts?

I posted my thoughts last time you posted a variation of this lame ass concept.
I’m out…

venice_ca · Jul 12, 2023

@Bodi
If you didn’t receive the responses you desired on the previous posting of this topic, what do you expect to change this time around?

Bodi · Jul 12, 2023

jpevans said:
I posted my thoughts last time you posted a variation of this lame ass concept.
I’m out…

There are new people with valuable thoughts that I would love to hear.

venice_ca · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
There are new people with valuable thoughts that I would love to hear.

Fair enough. You hope that you will find more supportive comments than with the previous thread.

trixare4kids · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
This argument is only for places/States where Abortion is 100% Legal.
This is also not about how the law currently is... but in modifying the law.

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes.

- Women currently have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.
- Men currently do not have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.

Right now, women have all of the power over their pregnancy, and that is how it should be. They can have the child or not have the child. That is how it should be.

Women should be able to have sex, get pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want (abort the child) if they want to, and they have this right.

Men should be able to have sex, get a woman pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want if they want to, but they do not have this right.

Currently men are bound to whatever choice a woman makes post conception. She can walk away, and he cannot walk away. This is unequal.

What many have proposed is essentially the following:

- Man and woman have sex.
- Woman gets pregnant.

Woman has options:

- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and aborts
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but never gets financial help from him
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but then later hits him up for financial help
- Woman informs man of pregnancy and wants no financial support as they have some sort of joint custody
- Woman informs many of pregnancy and wants financials support from the man (Option 5)

If the 5th one happens the man should get some choices. At this point the man has options:

- Man agrees to pay and has some sort of custody
- Man agrees to pay and has no role in the child’s life
- Man does not agree to pay for anything and wants nothing to do with her or the child (Option 3)

If he chooses Option 3 then the woman has options again:

- Woman has an abortion
- Woman gives the baby up for adoption
- Woman has the child and pays for it herself

It is pretty simple.

This is post-conception opt-out that makes it equal for everybody.

As always, we will see posts from people that make the claim that if the man has options that the woman is being controlled. That is not the case. She has all the power over her body and pregnancy. At no time does the man have any power to have her abort or to not abort.

We might see people conflate the argument… insisting that biology and law can not be separated. That is utterly ridiculous. This is about post-conception. She is already pregnant. It is about Choice. There is no child at this point and there never is a child in this argument. Those that insist that there is are lying.

We might see the worst type of debate… the man has to pay and gave up all his rights once he came even though she did not give up her rights.

Anyway… thoughts?

Didn't you already make a thread like this years ago? Why, yes, you did. Why is another needed?

Post Conception Opt-Out? Good Idea or Bad?

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes. - Women currently have a post conception opt out of having...

debatepolitics.com

Same answer as before. You make them, you pay for them.
You aren't and never will be a part of a woman's post choice decision unless you're invited to be.

Bodi · Jul 12, 2023

venice_ca said:
Fair enough. You hope that you will find more supportive comments than with the previous thread.

Actually, each time I post this there are more and more that agree... and many of them are normal, no misogynist woman hating people. They are reasonable and stick to facts. Many are also women.

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

jpevans said:
I posted my thoughts last time you posted a variation of this lame ass concept.
I’m out…

venice_ca said:
@Bodi
If you didn’t receive the responses you desired on the previous posting of this topic, what do you expect to change this time around?

There's a lot to be said for saving stuff in OneNote. This stuff gets a lot of mileage.

Since it's not really about abortion, he'd be smart to post it in a different sub-forum, like Law and Order...he'd get a different 'audience.'

Bodi · Jul 12, 2023

trixare4kids said:
Didn't you already make a thread like this years ago? Why, yes, you did. Why is another needed?

Post Conception Opt-Out? Good Idea or Bad?

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes. - Women currently have a post conception opt out of having...

debatepolitics.com

Correct. New people though... they deserve equal rights.

trixare4kids said:
Same answer as before. You make them, you pay for them.

The woman made the kid... that kinda backfired on you. LOL

trixare4kids said:
You aren't and never will be a part of a woman's post choice decision unless you're invited to be.

Currently. Laws/Policies can change though... just look at RvW.

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
Correct. New people though... they deserve equal rights.

The woman made the kid... that kinda backfired on you. LOL

Currently. Laws/Policies can change though... just look at RvW.

Yup...women no longer have a right to abortion. It's just 'allowed' in some states.

Now...what rights are men giving up? What equal rights are they missing out on? Please identify them?

trixare4kids · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
Correct. New people though... they deserve equal rights.

They can archive and that's what you should have done. Point them to your other thread.

Bodi said:
The woman made the kid... that kinda backfired on you. LOL

Not quite. You might want to spend your time taking a class on human reproduction.

Bodi said:
Currently. Laws/Policies can change though... just look at RvW.

Wishful thinking, and besides that, Roe doesn't apply to Australians or Americans who reside there.
You make them, you pay for them.

Individual · Jul 12, 2023

Same as each time before, NO.
Perhaps a law requiring the Male to pay child support even if the Woman gives up the child for adoption is needed.
Then the Male would be required to find someone willing to take on HIS part of responsibility for the child he had a part in creating.
That would be equality.

jpevans · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
Actually, each time I post this there are more and more that agree... and many of them are normal, no misogynist woman hating people. They are reasonable and stick to facts. Many are also women.

Vagas Giant isn’t many. I know I said I was out but…

trixare4kids · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
Actually, each time I post this there are more and more that agree... and many of them are normal, no misogynist woman hating people. They are reasonable and stick to facts. Many are also women.

Once a woman decides to have yours, the collective your child, you, the collective man, who donated the sperm, are on the hook for 18 years unless she decides otherwise. Got any paintings to give your sprog?

Integrityrespec · Jul 12, 2023

Bodi said:
This argument is only for places/States where Abortion is 100% Legal.
This is also not about how the law currently is... but in modifying the law.

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

This argument is not about biology. This argument is about the law. The issue is currently unequal under the law. This discriminates against men and forces men to pay for a choice that the woman makes.

- Women currently have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.
- Men currently do not have a post conception opt out of having and paying for a child that they do not want.

Right now, women have all of the power over their pregnancy, and that is how it should be. They can have the child or not have the child. That is how it should be.

Women should be able to have sex, get pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want (abort the child) if they want to, and they have this right.

Men should be able to have sex, get a woman pregnant and walk away from parenthood and from paying for a child they do not want if they want to, but they do not have this right.

Currently men are bound to whatever choice a woman makes post conception. She can walk away, and he cannot walk away. This is unequal.

What many have proposed is essentially the following:

- Man and woman have sex.
- Woman gets pregnant.

Woman has options:

- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and aborts
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but never gets financial help from him
- Woman never informs man of pregnancy and has child but then later hits him up for financial help
- Woman informs man of pregnancy and wants no financial support as they have some sort of joint custody
- Woman informs many of pregnancy and wants financials support from the man (Option 5)

If the 5th one happens the man should get some choices. At this point the man has options:

- Man agrees to pay and has some sort of custody
- Man agrees to pay and has no role in the child’s life
- Man does not agree to pay for anything and wants nothing to do with her or the child (Option 3)

If he chooses Option 3 then the woman has options again:

- Woman has an abortion
- Woman gives the baby up for adoption
- Woman has the child and pays for it herself

It is pretty simple.

This is post-conception opt-out that makes it equal for everybody.

As always, we will see posts from people that make the claim that if the man has options that the woman is being controlled. That is not the case. She has all the power over her body and pregnancy. At no time does the man have any power to have her abort or to not abort.

We might see people conflate the argument… insisting that biology and law can not be separated. That is utterly ridiculous. This is about post-conception. She is already pregnant. It is about Choice. There is no child at this point and there never is a child in this argument. Those that insist that there is are lying.

We might see the worst type of debate… the man has to pay and gave up all his rights once he came even though she did not give up her rights.

Anyway… thoughts?

It's a sad state of affairs if you really think these are good things. Life is precious but not to democrats.

Lursa · Jul 12, 2023

jpevans said:
Vagas Giant isn’t many. I know I said I was out but…

He also recognized it for the emotional manipulation it is. Convince her you'll dump her if she doenst get rid of it.

Post Conception Opt-Out FOR MEN

Just waiting for my set...

Tenacious

Tenacious

Tenacious

Stuck In The Circle

Just waiting for my set...

Tenacious

Just waiting for my set...

Tenacious

Masshole

Just waiting for my set...

Just waiting for my set...

Tenacious

Just waiting for my set...

Tenacious

Masshole

Tenacious

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