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Portugal debates future of welfare state

zimmer

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Reality sucks. When past generations create a temporary Utopia and a half century later the tab comes due... you are farked.

So much for some of these Socialist define "Rights"... and the word "free". Its aints free... it's only deferred with interest and penalties... and "Rights" aren't services paid by someone else.

Portugal debates future of welfare state... ROTFLOL... I'd say the debate is over. They simply have to realize there is no Utopia where stuff is free and where government is a benevolent, efficient, effective partner. It's quite the opposite... of course Obamaville and his Parasite Nation will show the world how it's really done.


Portugal debates future of welfare state
...redefining the state’s responsibilities is highly contentious for many Portuguese, who see universal health care and education, free or subsidised at the point of delivery, as fundamental achievements of the 1974 revolution that overthrew 48 years of dictatorship. The government’s opponents fear it wants to destroy the welfare state. (Zimmer note: The welfare state destroyed itself with inefficiencies, corruption and typically bad... unrealistic forecasts).

“There appears to be an enormous divergence between what the Portuguese believe the state should deliver and the amount of taxes they are prepared to pay,” he told parliament recently. Taxes have already risen substantially. The 2013 budget, the toughest in living memory, includes income tax increases of about 30 per cent. Mr Gaspar described the tax rises as “enormous” . ... austerity measures that have pushed Portugal into its deepest recession in 40 years, with record unemployment reaching close to 16 per cent.

A sweeping review of the state’s role is due to be completed by March and is required by Portugal’s international lenders – the so-called “troika” of the European Commission, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank - to generate an additional €4bn in spending cuts over the next two years.(Zimmer note: Isn't Socialism wonderful... you get to lose autonomy too! Others dictate to you; it's like losing a war where the victors demand you kneel and mend your false ways).

“About two-thirds of public expenditure goes on social transfers and employment,” said Abebe Selassie, the head of IMF’s mission to Portugal. “But benchmark indicators show a lot of inefficiencies in the way social spending is targeted.” (Zimmer note: emphasis added).

Medical fees more than doubled in January. The cost for using emergency services, for example, rose from €9.60 to €20, partly to discourage people with minor ailments from going to hospital. The number of people seeking emergency treatment has since fallen by 10 per cent. (Zimmer note: emphasis added).

Paying more for better services would make sense, but not just to keep things as they are,” said Cidália Juste, 52,... said state medical fees were already too high. (Zimmer note: emphasis added).

The prime minister, said António Arnaut, a member of the opposition Socialists and a founder of the national health service, is bent on a “neoliberal project to destroy the welfare state”. (Zimmer note: Too late... Socialism... its greed, corruption and ineficiencies killed Socialism... as it always does.)

Portugal debates future of welfare state - FT.com
 

Rainman05

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Ok.

I will start with an offtopic note and then proceed to discuss on this topic. I am very happy that americans are more and more into news about Europe. However, I would prefer if said americans would stop thinking of Europe in the sense that it is a continent full of socialist countries. Because it isn't. It would also be helpful if you would stop using the term socialist and liberal with the same meaning in Europe because over here, they mean 2 different things... as they should. It would also be helpful and encourage proper communication if terms in politics would mean what they are supposed to mean. Let me explain in the official response.

This
"So much for some of these Socialist define "Rights"... and the word "free". Its aints free... it's only deferred with interest and penalties... and "Rights" aren't services paid by someone else.

Portugal debates future of welfare state... ROTFLOL... I'd say the debate is over. They simply have to realize there is no Utopia where stuff is free and where government is a benevolent, efficient, effective partner. It's quite the opposite... of course Obamaville and his Parasite Nation will show the world how it's really done. " is nonsense. Utter nonsense.

Let me start from the begging. First off it is true that Portugal is the only country in Europe who has, in its constitution, a socialist, non-marxist, non-communist outlook in a certain area of civic rights. So that is correct. However, portugal is not a socialist country. It is a capitalist country who employs the same economic model, of mixed economics as the rest of Europe and the USA does.

Now, lets move on to the WELFARE state. The WELFARE state is not a socialist invention. I mean it. It is a invention of the modern era. Somewhere in the late XIXth century, conservatives and liberal started enacting more and more legislation to offer healthcare, pensions, unemployment benefits, etc to the people of their country. I have made sevearal threads in which I detailed these things. One of them is in my signature. Check it out. The only socialist invention that is truly socialist in nature is unions. If you are going to give healthcare, education, pensions, etc to the socialists you are giving them good programs which they never thought about. You are empowering an ideology which has never produced anything worthwhile with good ideas. You are playing their game. The WELFARE state was initially constructed in the UK by the liberals (European liberals, not american liberals) and it had great success. Why? Because it is a conservative and a liberal construct. Not a socialist one.

Good. That being out of the way. Portugal has been hit very hard by the fact that it became part of the eurozone. Why? Because of the way it had developed its economy. It had good manufacturing and depended on exports... which the high value of the euro killed. It depended on tourism which the high value of the euro again, killed. It left it stranded in a way. If Portugal had not joined the euro, the lower value of its currency, which Portugal would have been in control of, would have ensured the same high quality of life as portugesse people have enjoyed for the past half a century (always ranking in the top 30) and have a solid economy.

To blame socialism is to blame a ghost. To blame the EU and the euro currency is to put the blame in the correct place. To blame the EU of being a socialist entity, is false. To consider the EU as a marxist, communist, totalitarian entity is to give a crude, but somewhat accurate description. To blame the welfare state for the problems Portugal faces is to blame a ghost. To consider the welfare state as being a socialist construct is to empower, that is, give credit, to an ideology which doesn't deserve it and shouldn't be empowered. Got it?
 

poweRob

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Funny now those who are most vitriolic haters of socialism more often than not make diatribes showing that they have actually no idea what socialism is. Or what Europe is for that matter.
 

AliHajiSheik

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Funny now those who are most vitriolic haters of socialism more often than not make diatribes showing that they have actually no idea what socialism is. Or what Europe is for that matter.
Vague comments are vague.
 

zimmer

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Ok.

I will start with an offtopic note and then proceed to discuss on this topic. I am very happy that americans are more and more into news about Europe. However, I would prefer if said americans would stop thinking of Europe in the sense that it is a continent full of socialist countries.
Note to Rainman. Ich bin kein Außenseiter. (I'm no outsider; I know Europe very well. Better than most Europeans. I've seen more iof it, have done business in more of it than 99% of the population). I've dealt with the bureaucracy, and have spent enough hours with people in business there.

Because it isn't. It would also be helpful if you would stop using the term socialist and liberal with the same meaning in Europe because over here, they mean 2 different things... as they should.
You're on a US-centric site. The term Lib in the US is Socialist oriented, not classical Liberalism a`la von Mises or Hayek. It is why Libs run from the term Lib... ask George Clooney about that one. Now they're progressives, centrists and moderates... ROTFLOL. If they were honest they admit they're Socialists and want more and more socialist legislation. Just read their posts.

Let me start from the begging. First off it is true that Portugal is the only country in Europe who has, in its constitution, a socialist, non-marxist, non-communist outlook in a certain area of civic rights.
Portugal had a Communist elected to their highest office and is their Euro mouthpiece.

So that is correct. However, portugal is not a socialist country. It is a capitalist country who employs the same economic model, of mixed economics as the rest of Europe and the USA does.
ROTFLOL... you just said it... in bold. Portugal and Europe are Socialist... through and through. Their EU Constitution is the antithesis of the US Constitution... though that hasn't stopped Parasite Nation from screwing the US by pissing on the Constitution since WWII.


Now, lets move on to the WELFARE state. The WELFARE state is not a socialist invention.
It's socialism. Who really cares where it's invented. What the outcome?

To blame socialism is to blame a ghost.
ROTFLOL... Folks... that's the problem. There is no Socialism... it's invisible... like a ghost... ROTFLOL... only a socialist could come up with this stuff.
 

Rainman05

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Note to Rainman. Ich bin kein Außenseiter. (I'm no outsider; I know Europe very well. Better than most Europeans. I've seen more iof it, have done business in more of it than 99% of the population). I've dealt with the bureaucracy, and have spent enough hours with people in business there.

good for you. or bad for you... depends how you look at it.

You're on a US-centric site. The term Lib in the US is Socialist oriented, not classical Liberalism a`la von Mises or Hayek. It is why Libs run from the term Lib... ask George Clooney about that one. Now they're progressives, centrists and moderates... ROTFLOL. If they were honest they admit they're Socialists and want more and more socialist legislation. Just read their posts.

then you cannot discuss european politics and hope to make sense. Also, liberal =/= liberalism.

Portugal had a Communist elected to their highest office and is their Euro mouthpiece.

While barosso is indeed an asshole, I don't see him as being the head of the EU commity because he is from portugal.

ROTFLOL... you just said it... in bold. Portugal and Europe are Socialist... through and through. Their EU Constitution is the antithesis of the US Constitution... though that hasn't stopped Parasite Nation from screwing the US by pissing on the Constitution since WWII.

No, they aren't. Portugal has a little socialist, non-marxist point in its constitution. The rest of the European countries, including Russia, don't have any socialism in their constitution. They are not socialist. They are very capitalist nations who employ the same economic model as the US. That is to say, the US employs the same economic model that the European countries do. Because its the same for some time now.

It's socialism. Who really cares where it's invented. What the outcome?


ROTFLOL... Folks... that's the problem. There is no Socialism... it's invisible... like a ghost... ROTFLOL... only a socialist could come up with this stuff.

Then congrats. you are giving credit to an ideology that doesn't deserve it. Instead of giving public education, universal healthcare and such good programs to socialism, making it more appealing, you should be fighting to discredit socialism for the piece of **** that it is that hasn't brought people anything good.

Congrats. Keep on the good work. I'm sure this way you will certainly advance the "good" agenda.
 

CalGun

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Isn't ironic when "their" system fails they feel an academic need to redefine what "it" really is; maybe that is why Bill Clinton couldn't figure out what "is" meant; sorry I digress.
 

Hatuey

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Ok.

I will start with an offtopic note and then proceed to discuss on this topic. I am very happy that americans are more and more into news about Europe. However, I would prefer if said americans would stop thinking of Europe in the sense that it is a continent full of socialist countries. Because it isn't. It would also be helpful if you would stop using the term socialist and liberal with the same meaning in Europe because over here, they mean 2 different things... as they should. It would also be helpful and encourage proper communication if terms in politics would mean what they are supposed to mean. Let me explain in the official response.

This
"So much for some of these Socialist define "Rights"... and the word "free". Its aints free... it's only deferred with interest and penalties... and "Rights" aren't services paid by someone else.

Portugal debates future of welfare state... ROTFLOL... I'd say the debate is over. They simply have to realize there is no Utopia where stuff is free and where government is a benevolent, efficient, effective partner. It's quite the opposite... of course Obamaville and his Parasite Nation will show the world how it's really done. " is nonsense. Utter nonsense.

Let me start from the begging. First off it is true that Portugal is the only country in Europe who has, in its constitution, a socialist, non-marxist, non-communist outlook in a certain area of civic rights. So that is correct. However, portugal is not a socialist country. It is a capitalist country who employs the same economic model, of mixed economics as the rest of Europe and the USA does.

Now, lets move on to the WELFARE state. The WELFARE state is not a socialist invention. I mean it. It is a invention of the modern era. Somewhere in the late XIXth century, conservatives and liberal started enacting more and more legislation to offer healthcare, pensions, unemployment benefits, etc to the people of their country. I have made sevearal threads in which I detailed these things. One of them is in my signature. Check it out. The only socialist invention that is truly socialist in nature is unions. If you are going to give healthcare, education, pensions, etc to the socialists you are giving them good programs which they never thought about. You are empowering an ideology which has never produced anything worthwhile with good ideas. You are playing their game. The WELFARE state was initially constructed in the UK by the liberals (European liberals, not american liberals) and it had great success. Why? Because it is a conservative and a liberal construct. Not a socialist one.

Good. That being out of the way. Portugal has been hit very hard by the fact that it became part of the eurozone. Why? Because of the way it had developed its economy. It had good manufacturing and depended on exports... which the high value of the euro killed. It depended on tourism which the high value of the euro again, killed. It left it stranded in a way. If Portugal had not joined the euro, the lower value of its currency, which Portugal would have been in control of, would have ensured the same high quality of life as portugesse people have enjoyed for the past half a century (always ranking in the top 30) and have a solid economy.

To blame socialism is to blame a ghost. To blame the EU and the euro currency is to put the blame in the correct place. To blame the EU of being a socialist entity, is false. To consider the EU as a marxist, communist, totalitarian entity is to give a crude, but somewhat accurate description. To blame the welfare state for the problems Portugal faces is to blame a ghost. To consider the welfare state as being a socialist construct is to empower, that is, give credit, to an ideology which doesn't deserve it and shouldn't be empowered. Got it?
You... you do realize you're speaking to Zimmer... correct?
 

Rainman05

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You... you do realize you're speaking to Zimmer... correct?
I am certain that phrase has some deep meaning, but since I am here for only about 1 month and a half, it may elude me.
 

Paul Austin

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Reality sucks. When past generations create a temporary Utopia and a half century later the tab comes due... you are farked.
Truth is, if you look at a lot of countries, their dirty little secret from the electorate, is that left or right, theyve been trying to cut back on welfare, & welfare spending for a long time now.

Welfare, as traditionally viewed in most of Europe, is under review.
 

zimmer

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Truth is, if you look at a lot of countries, their dirty little secret from the electorate, is that left or right, theyve been trying to cut back on welfare, & welfare spending for a long time now.

Welfare, as traditionally viewed in most of Europe, is under review.
Well... what we have here is someone admitting Europe is Socialist, and recognizing some are trying to cut back the corrupt system.

Some are trying to cut it, and cut services people paid into! And they are expanding it too! Why? They can't help themselves.

I lived in Sverige when they began the deconstruction of their socialist mess... but a lot is still in place.
Germany... they've tried cutting, and then they expand; like their latest inane venture to have all kids in day care. Who pays for this bit of socialist BS? Someone must.

Like I said... I know Europe and its socialist nightmare.
You do not get into serious problems with limited government and a strong military... and these nations (and Kanuckistan) have gutted their militaries... letting the US pick up the tab.

Hatuey... have you read the free book I linked to below? Have a go... open your mind.
 

Rainman05

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Welfare is not a sign of socialism.

The Welfare state is not a bad thing. Not inherently. It can turn into a bad thing if the people running the country are idiots and hence, the people electing them are not that bright either. But it is a good thing whose groundwork has been made by liberals and conservatives, the European kind, not the american version of conservative and liberal.
 
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