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Poll: Young adults support new efforts to curb gun violence

Maybe so, but while I stop short of saying the founders were evil for owning slaves, it was not an uncontroversial opinion. there was an active movement to ban slavery in the original constitution draft, or at least not allow the south to count slave populations towards congress.

this however is irrelevant to the topic of the thread.

Informative though. I'm always glad to add to what I was taught in schools here.
 
Informative though. I'm always glad to add to what I was taught in schools here.

I do enjoy reading what people educated in other countries tend to think of US history I will admit.
 
The question isn't 'is', it's 'was'.
It's devious and dishonest to apply the standards of today, with our advantages of information and sophistication, to people hundreds of years ago. Obviously, men who were considered liberal and enlightened thought there was no evil in slavery at the time.
Of course, had you lived then, you would have straightened them out, shown them the evil of their ways.

In 1776 many prominent slave owners signed a document stating that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. They agreed that those same human beings are entitled to certain rights among those being life and liberty. Slavery is an extreme violation of both.

Yes they knew it was wrong in 1776 and practiced it just the same for their own selfish economic enrichment. And that is wrong and they knew it.
 
In that day and age it was not. Are you saying right and wrong is or is not subjective? Make up your mind. Scientists of the day felt they were less than human and society believed them and rationalized it as acceptable. Kind of like abortion...but that's another forum.

Please see my response in the above post which covers this.

They knew that Africans were people. Read some of Jeffersons writings and this is very obvious.

https://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-slavery

Thomas Jefferson and Slavery
Throughout his entire life, Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery. Calling it a “moral depravity”1 and a “hideous blot,”2 he believed that slavery presented the greatest threat to the survival of the new American nation.3 Jefferson also thought that slavery was contrary to the laws of nature, which decreed that everyone had a right to personal liberty.4 These views were radical in a world where unfree labor was the norm.

Each of the numbered statements is supported by Jeffersons writings.
 
But the societal tipping point that determines that it is immoral had not been met which by your standards means it was OK/moral.

The men who owned slaves knew it was wrong to do so and evidence has already been provided to you supporting that fact.
 
The men who owned slaves knew it was wrong to do so and evidence has already been provided to you supporting that fact.

I think a lot of things are wrong but unless society says it is wrong, it is right. They may have thought it was wrong, but society determined it was right. As I said, it was ok until the societal tipping point occured in 1865. Don't get me wrong, I think it is and has alalway been wrong, but you explained in many threads that society determines what is right and wrong and there are no universal's....

Wait....are you saying slavery was wrong even though society said it was OK???
 
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In 1776 many prominent slave owners signed a document stating that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. They agreed that those same human beings are entitled to certain rights among those being life and liberty. Slavery is an extreme violation of both.

Yes they knew it was wrong in 1776 and practiced it just the same for their own selfish economic enrichment. And that is wrong and they knew it.

Slaves weren't people. They were property. Does your dog have the same rights you have? Is that wrong? Maybe it should be.
 
what is the real joke is those who claim that more laws restricting honest gun owners will somehow deter criminals. Its already highly illegal for a felon, a person under indictment, etc to even touch a gun. Magazine limits, waiting periods, "assault weapon bans" or registration ONLY change the rules for law abiding people. so your rant is just plain stupid


Did you even read the article?

I guess not. None of those things is even featured, that's the years and years of knee jerk responses of "THEY"R GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS!" Reactionary, ignorant and as usual ignoring the cause of the problem - for 200 years American and America alone have lived in a bloodbath compared to other industrialized nations, and because of pig-headed, one track, paranoia EVERY suggestion ends in the same way....Conservatives, or rather "Whigs" go ape **** and go full bore Trump.

Please don't bother me with your 100 year old, 2,000 times posted bull****. There is nothing in the above that has not been said thousands of times; only proving that conservatives can't learn
 
Did you even read the article?

I guess not. None of those things is even featured, that's the years and years of knee jerk responses of "THEY"R GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS!" Reactionary, ignorant and as usual ignoring the cause of the problem - for 200 years American and America alone have lived in a bloodbath compared to other industrialized nations, and because of pig-headed, one track, paranoia EVERY suggestion ends in the same way....Conservatives, or rather "Whigs" go ape **** and go full bore Trump.

Please don't bother me with your 100 year old, 2,000 times posted bull****. There is nothing in the above that has not been said thousands of times; only proving that conservatives can't learn

Why do foreigners hiding under the skirt of their respective Nanny States care what we Americans do in America. It's our blood bath and our rights and freedoms not yours.

Its already highly illegal for a felon, a person under indictment, etc to even touch a gun. Magazine limits, waiting periods, "assault weapon bans" or registration ONLY change the rules for law abiding people.

Nothing posted there is 100 year old, 2,000 times posted bull****. Its all relevant today and completely true.
 
Did you even read the article?

I guess not. None of those things is even featured, that's the years and years of knee jerk responses of "THEY"R GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS!" Reactionary, ignorant and as usual ignoring the cause of the problem - for 200 years American and America alone have lived in a bloodbath compared to other industrialized nations, and because of pig-headed, one track, paranoia EVERY suggestion ends in the same way....Conservatives, or rather "Whigs" go ape **** and go full bore Trump.

Please don't bother me with your 100 year old, 2,000 times posted bull****. There is nothing in the above that has not been said thousands of times; only proving that conservatives can't learn

I really don't care what non-citizens have to say about our rights or gun laws You won't pay a price if you and other foreigners who constantly yap that "no one is going to take your guns-are wrong. Since you have nothing at stake, your opinions matter not
 
Actually it isn't a surprise at all as societies grow they by nature become more mature.

The desire to curb gun violence is not a right-left debate, it is a debate between the sane and the totally nuts. Seriously, who the **** would support MORE gun violence.

What also isn't a surprise is that red necks automatically see a call for a curb of gun violence as taking away a God given right. That's what's antiquated in the equation, the stupidity of allowing a virtual slaughter for the sake of a mis-understood 250 year old document.

The problem isn't "gun violence", the problem is "criminal violence". Start dealing aggressively with the violent criminals and you start truly fixing the problem. All that getting rid of legal guns does is to take the legal gun part out of the equation and leave the violence part along with the illegal guns part.
 
I think a lot of things are wrong but unless society says it is wrong, it is right. They may have thought it was wrong, but society determined it was right. As I said, it was ok until the societal tipping point occured in 1865. Don't get me wrong, I think it is and has alalway been wrong, but you explained in many threads that society determines what is right and wrong and there are no universal's....

Wait....are you saying slavery was wrong even though society said it was OK???

Slavery was the opposite of what the Founders - the slave owners in question - said was right. That makes it wrong in their eyes.
 
Slaves weren't people. They were property. Does your dog have the same rights you have? Is that wrong? Maybe it should be.

They were people who were treated as property and Jeffersons own writings confirm that reality - as I previously cited this morning from the Monticello site. As such they still were human beings and Jefferson knew that.
 
Slavery was the opposite of what the Founders - the slave owners in question - said was right. That makes it wrong in their eyes.

But society said it was OK.What is wrong in an individuals mind is irrelevant. They were living up to societies ideals so that makes it inherently right. Society determines right and wrong.
 
They were people who were treated as property and Jeffersons own writings confirm that reality - as I previously cited this morning from the Monticello site. As such they still were human beings and Jefferson knew that.

Many people view unborn babies as humans too. Society says otherwise therefore, regardless of what anyone believes, they are not.
 
But society said it was OK.What is wrong in an individuals mind is irrelevant. They were living up to societies ideals so that makes it inherently right. Society determines right and wrong.

So it was right for Germans to wipe out Jews in the manner they did because their society gave license to it? Come on and stop with the utter BS rationalization for utter wrongness?

Jefferson knew it was a betrayal of the sacred principles he wrote on parchment in the Declaration and his own writings which I have provided said so.

He knew it was wrong but practiced the wrong anyways.
 
Many people view unborn babies as humans too. Society says otherwise therefore, regardless of what anyone believes, they are not.

Deal with Jefferson - his statements - his beliefs - and his actions.He knew he was doing wrong but did it anyways.
 
The problem isn't "gun violence", the problem is "criminal violence". Start dealing aggressively with the violent criminals and you start truly fixing the problem. All that getting rid of legal guns does is to take the legal gun part out of the equation and leave the violence part along with the illegal guns part.


"Deal with aggressively" how? Longer sentences? That's worked so well, the highest ratio of incarcerated in any industrialized nation. Capital punishment for repeat offenders; you see the problem is that despite what could be considered harsh measures the crime rate continues to be higher than any other industrialized country. This while the debate rages, unchanged, since I lived there in the 60's. Only the names have changed
 
So it was right for Germans to wipe out Jews in the manner they did because their society gave license to it? Come on and stop with the utter BS rationalization for utter wrongness?

Jefferson knew it was a betrayal of the sacred principles he wrote on parchment in the Declaration and his own writings which I have provided said so.

He knew it was wrong but practiced the wrong anyways.

You were the one that claimed there are no universal rights and that society determines what is right and wrong....
 
"Deal with aggressively" how? Longer sentences? That's worked so well, the highest ratio of incarcerated in any industrialized nation. Capital punishment for repeat offenders; you see the problem is that despite what could be considered harsh measures the crime rate continues to be higher than any other industrialized country. This while the debate rages, unchanged, since I lived there in the 60's. Only the names have changed

That is changing. Most of our incarcerations are drug/non violent offenders. If you follow our news, we are in the process of revisiting how they are handled. You need to compare apples to apples. Violent offenders need to be handled more harshly was his point...
 
You were the one that claimed there are no universal rights and that society determines what is right and wrong....

I have absolutely no idea what your claim about what you think I may have said has to do with the reality that Jefferson was a slave owner and doing so betrayed his professed belief in the equality of all men and the rights he stated all men had.
 
I have absolutely no idea what your claim about what you think I may have said has to do with the reality that Jefferson was a slave owner and doing so betrayed his professed belief in the equality of all men and the rights he stated all men had.

So you disagree with Jefferson about the equality of all men and their rights then?
 
So you disagree with Jefferson about the equality of all men and their rights then?

Where did I take any position on that? :doh Please follow the issue at hand.
 
Where did I take any position on that? :doh Please follow the issue at hand.

Since you're opposed to our 2nd Amendment rights, you're clearly not in support of the rights of all men.

If you've said anything to the contrary, do point me to it, i'll surely follow.
 
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