Poll on Pres. Trump's Culpability in COVID-Related Deaths

[cabse5]

IMHO, blame (for specific POTUS actions/inactions) is impossible to quantify.

Especially when the 'expert' epidemiologists aren't expert.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

The protests against the Taylor ruling and in Portland, for example, spread the disease.

They can, but we know for a fact that rallies do because Trump’s own guidelines state they’re a no no.

Oh, and we have him on tape with Woodward. That too.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

There have been packed rallies against the ruling of the Taylor incident. You against those unprotected protests, for example?

Yes. But I understand why those folks are taking the risk, and so do they which is they they’re mostly masked up.

Trump holds rallies in violation of local states edicts, so he doesn’t even respect local authorities attempts to control the virus despite telling them it’s their job. It’s almost like he just doesn’t care, but we can’t know what’s in his heart.

 

[CaughtInThe]

At least 3 people, so far, think our President (the office) can't lead America.

That's really sad.

 

[ecofarm]

I am not going dignify another bloody foreigner until said foreigner offers a poll to show culpability of the Dem scum like Cuomo and others in the Dem states, which, btw, lead in the china virus death rates.

What cowardly garbage.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

I understand that (the buck stops here?) concept but, unlike the coach (or owner) of a sports team, the POTUS does not have the power to fire (or bench) Governors or congress critters who do not carry out his wishes.

His wishes were for states to reopen before they met his own guidelines for safely reopening. His current wishes involve ignoring local health edicts to hold rallies that are expressly stated as a means to effectively spread the virus. He has countered his own government agency’s advice, and mocks wearing masks. He’s stated testing is overrated while installing a strict testing regime in the WH.

Plus, we heard the Woodward tapes. He could have told us what he told Woodward. Instead he told us what Xi told him to tell us.

 

[cabse5]

They can, but we know for a fact that rallies do because Trump’s own guidelines state they’re a no no.

Oh, and we have him on tape with Woodward. That too.

You point to stats stating that the US has one of the highest rates of new cases of Covid. That reason is partly due to Trump rallies AND protests against the B. Taylor decision, for example.

 

[cabse5]

Yes. But I understand why those folks are taking the risk, and so do they which is they they’re mostly masked up.

Trump holds rallies in violation of local states edicts, so he doesn’t even respect local authorities attempts to control the virus despite telling them it’s their job. It’s almost like he just doesn’t care, but we can’t know what’s in his heart.

It's OK to protest or riot but not OK to rally for Trump.

EDIT: And those rioters aren't all masked up and are spewing spit.

 

[Novichok]

You point to stats stating that the US has one of the highest rates of new cases of Covid. That reason is partly due to Trump rallies AND protests against the B. Taylor decision, for example.

"Cases" are bs. Deaths per capita is what counts. The worst are the NE states run by the Democrat mafia.

 

[Cardinal]

All, and that may be surprising considering that not a single country on earth has zero deaths, even those with the most incredible and competent leadership, but the argument makes sense.

Let's say you're driving and your breaks give out, causing you to run through a crowd of pedestrians and killing 25% of them even after doing the best you could to avoid running them over (yes, it's a macabre analogy -- sorry). Assuming you were in control of your own faculties, it's almost certain that it would be ruled a tragic accident and you wouldn't be criminally liable.

However, let's say that you were drunk and passed out and your breaks gave out, causing you to kill a much greater number of people (75%). You wouldn't be on the hook for just the additional 50%, but for every single death.

At issue here is that a tragic incident (a pandemic) struck the United States and the President consistently chose to take zero actions to protect the American people. Therefore, like the drunk driver with the brakeless car, he's on the hook for every single death because he took no actions to help or avoid causing harm.

 

[Novichok]

It's OK to protest or riot but not OK to rally for Trump.

EDIT: And those rioters aren't all masked up and are spewing spit.

They only mask up front rows for the photo ops.

 

[ttwtt78640]

His wishes were for states to reopen before they met his own guidelines for safely reopening. His current wishes involve ignoring local health edicts to hold rallies that are expressly stated as a means to effectively spread the virus. He has countered his own government agency’s advice, and mocks wearing masks. He’s stated testing is overrated while installing a strict testing regime in the WH.

Plus, we heard the Woodward tapes. He could have told us what he told Woodward. Instead he told us what Xi told him to tell us.

I can certainly agree that Trump is inconsistent, but to try to quantify those who choose to follow (or ignore) his (ever changing?) advice (or example) is beyond my ability. As noted by another poster, even his “experts” have offered changing (and contradictory) advice.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

It's OK to protest or riot but not OK to rally for Trump.

EDIT: And those rioters aren't all masked up and are spewing spit.

To your first sentence: yes. That is correct. 100% correct. If *you* cannot discern judgement betweeen the potus and people you consider rioters, then what are you even arguing about? If you feel the behavior of “rioters” is acceptable for your law and order candidate, whose hypocrisy are you chasing right now?

So many of you just like arguing so much that you forget what it is you are trying to argue. Which is why most of you are so bad at this.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

"Cases" are bs. Deaths per capita is what counts. The worst are the NE states run by the Democrat mafia.

It’s so funny to me when Trump stans start arguing over which bullshit talking point they should be using for covid on any given week.

 

[cabse5]

"Cases" are bs. Deaths per capita is what counts. The worst are the NE states run by the Democrat mafia.

Cases count to the epidemiolocal dopes who think that hospital resources will be forfeited from this pandemic and the same epidemiological dopes are more concerned with preserving hospital resources than saving lives.

The high death count from Covid in the US was inevitable because of the use of social distancing. The high death count wasn't in spite of social distancing but because of social distancing.

EDIT: I'm not advocating for herd immunity as in Sweden, for example. It's just that certain groups of people are most susceptible to hospitalization and death from Covid infection and social distancing (and herd immunity) didn't protect those people.

 

[Novichok]

... and the President consistently chose to take zero actions to protect the American people. Therefore, like the drunk driver with the brakeless car, he's on the hook for every single death.

I so totally agree. What is so maddening is his refusal to stop flights from China and the EU, to provide two Navy hospital ships, to order more ventilators, to push for fast development of vaccines,....That list is endless.
I am so glad you pointed it out. Obama, on the other hand, was all hands-on kind of president with H1N1. Well done so nobody died.

 

[cabse5]

I so totally agree. What is so maddening is his refusal to stop flights from China and the EU, to provide two Navy hospital ships, to order more ventilators, to push for fast development of vaccines,....That list is endless.
I am so glad you pointed it out. Obama, on the other hand, was all hands-on kind of president with H1N1. Well done so nobody died.

Trump relied on 'expert' epidemiologists who were clueless. I understand, now, your post was sarcastic.

 

[Novichok]

Cases count to the epidemiolocal dopes who think that hospital resources will be forfeited from this pandemic and the same epidemiological dopes are more concerned with preserving hospital resources than saving lives.

The high death count from Covid in the US was inevitable because of the use of social distancing. The high death count wasn't in spite of social distancing but because of social distancing.

EDIT: I'm not advocating for herd immunity as in Sweden, for example. It's just that certain groups of people are most susceptible to hospitalization and death from Covid infection and social distancing didn't protect those people.

BS again. Hospitals were desperate for patients. So much so that they had to have massive layoffs of their medical staff. The ones that made the news were dealing with the NY death chambers aka nursing homes created by that woke moron Cuomo. When is his trial scheduled?

 

[Ethel2]

I am not going dignify another bloody foreigner until said foreigner offers a poll to show culpability of the Dem scum like Cuomo and others in the Dem states, which, btw, lead in the china virus death rates.

The jackass is responsible for at least half of the deaths in this country. Had he acted earlier to incentivize the governors to shut their states down and listened to the experts 90% of the deaths in this country could have been averted. But he was more interested in getting re-elected, and now he is threatening not to accept the results of the election if he loses. If you want to talk about scum, he defines it.

 

[Ethel2]

I understand that (the buck stops here?) concept but, unlike the coach (or owner) of a sports team, the POTUS does not have the power to fire (or bench) Governors or congress critters who do not carry out his wishes.

Nope, he doesn't. But he CAN withhold federal funds to those states who do not comply with his "suggestions" as he has threatened to do repeatedly in the past. Instead, the jackass did nothing but downplay the pandemic. Its on tape, in his own words. Tough to deny that.

 

[Novichok]

The jackass is responsible for at least half of the deaths in this country. Had he acted earlier to incentivize the governors to shut their states down and listened to the experts 90% of the deaths in this country could have been averted. But he was more interested in getting re-elected, and now he is threatening not to accept the results of the election if he loses. If you want to talk about scum, he defines it.

So the governors needed to be "incentivized" because they lived under the rock in a very dark basement without the Internet and, therefore, had no clue what was going on, and awaiting an email from the WH. But I understand that the WH was slow delivering to them the state constitutions. Bad Trump.

It's called dereliction of duty, for Pete's sake. . In my circles, we call it being an irresponsible moron.

BTW, I am confused about the "incentivized" bit. You mean threatened or bribed? Because every time Trump tries to tell them what to do, he is called a "dictator". Weird.

 

[Phys251]

A spot poll on Pres. Trump's culpability in COVID-related deaths, to get a feel for where DP sentiment is at.

Some notes:

1. Select the answer that most closely matches your view. If no option is suitable, please select "the answer can't presently be quantified" and explain in-thread.
   
   
2. The option "None - Pres. Trump's Actions Would Have No Predictable, Provable Effect on the Numbers" should be the choice for any members who: i) believe Pres. Trump's actions would have no predictable, provable effect on the numbers in the long term, ii) believe the COVID figures are so highly inflated that any delta in the "real" numbers is necessarily insignificant, or iii) do not consider the deaths of sick or infirm people via COVID as a comorbidity rather than the direct cause of death to be legitimately "COVID-related" due to the underlying age and health issues.
   
   
3. "Justified" in options 3-8 refers to moral rather than legal justification. "The long term" refers to the period > 10 years in the future, once the full human consequences due to the virus and the lockdown have been mostly/fully manifest. Those wishing to explain their position on justification are invited to do so.
   
   
4. Answers should reflect only the number of American deaths among the ~200K reported COVID deaths thus far. This means that members who i) believe Pres. Trump's policies have only forward-shifted deaths (moved deaths ahead in time), not necessarily caused more, ii) believe Pres. Trump will be responsible for many more COVID-related deaths in future, and/or ii) believe the number of COVID-related deaths will ultimately be offset (or even negated) by a large number of lives saved due to economic ramifications of Pres. Trump's policies should not take these factors into consideration when selecting a percentage. However, any or all of these factors can of course count for or against justifiability.

The death toll would have been at least 50% less had our denier-in-chief actually taken decisive action, which those of us who support science wanted him to do.

And can you imagine that all-out outrage that right-wing extremists would be giving themselves into by now? They'd have stirred up so much chaos as to make "Antifa" look like nothing.

 

[SMTA]

Trump's affect on Covid deaths can't be quantified. Trump expected the expertise of epidemiologists who depended on false models based on false or incomplete world Covid data and, therefore, epidemiologists were more concerned with preserving hospital resources than preserving lives. Count on it, epidemiologists thought hospital resources would expire from this pandemic. Count on it, epidemiologists thought a choice would have to be made between saving lives and saving hospital resources. Trump counted on experts who weren't expert. The experts used methods like social distancing that didn't preserve lives as much as hospital resources.

The high rate of deaths from Covid isn't in spite of social distancing but because of social distancing.

Sure it can - the US has 4% of the world’s total population and 25% of the world’s COVID 19 cases.
the Trump administration ignored the initial coronavirus warnings and still doesn’t take it seriously.
**** Trump

 

[Ethel2]

The protests against the Taylor ruling and in Portland, for example, spread the disease.

Believe it or not, people DO have the right to peacefully protest. If the do so safely, with masks and socially distancing themselves, no one should object. How are the rallies for the loser president sitting with you? The indoor ones, where mask wearing and social distancing is not required. Those rallies.

 

[Casper]

I am not going dignify another bloody foreigner until said foreigner offers a poll to show culpability of the Dem scum like Cuomo and others in the Dem states, which, btw, lead in the china virus death rates.

But you don't want to bring up the culpability of Republican State Governors in opening too soon and allowing to ignore mandates, or trumps attempts to downplay the pandemic and ignoring the idea of wearing masks ? Hmm, sounds like you have a selective outrage going there. Color me shocked......