• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Poll on Pres. Trump's Culpability in COVID-Related Deaths

Of the ~200K American deaths attributed to COVID19, how many should be attributed to Pres. Trump?

  • None - The US Federal Government has No Business Nannying Free Citizens

    Votes: 2 4.8%
  • None - Pres. Trump's Actions Would Have No Predictable, Provable Effect on the Numbers

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • A Few (< 10%), but This Loss Will Be Proven Justifiable in the Long Term

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A Few (< 10%), and This Loss Will Never Be Justified

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A Significant Number (10-49%), but This Loss Will Be Proven Justifiable in the Long Term

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A Significant Number (10-49%), and This Loss Will Never Be Justified

    Votes: 13 31.0%
  • A Majority (50-90%), but This Loss Will Be Proven Justifiable in the Long Term

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • A Majority (50-90%), and This Loss Will Never Be Justified

    Votes: 7 16.7%
  • Nearly All (> 90%) - The Buck Stops With the Commander-in-Chief for Citizens Who Perish

    Votes: 8 19.0%
  • The Answer Can't Presently Be Quantified

    Votes: 5 11.9%

  • Total voters
    42
  • Poll closed .

COTO

Panthera Uncia
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 4, 2019
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
783
Location
Toronto, Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
A spot poll on Pres. Trump's culpability in COVID-related deaths, to get a feel for where DP sentiment is at.

Some notes:
  1. Select the answer that most closely matches your view. If no option is suitable, please select "the answer can't presently be quantified" and explain in-thread.

  2. The option "None - Pres. Trump's Actions Would Have No Predictable, Provable Effect on the Numbers" should be the choice for any members who: i) believe Pres. Trump's actions would have no predictable, provable effect on the numbers in the long term, ii) believe the COVID figures are so highly inflated that any delta in the "real" numbers is necessarily insignificant, or iii) do not consider the deaths of sick or infirm people via COVID as a comorbidity rather than the direct cause of death to be legitimately "COVID-related" due to the underlying age and health issues.

  3. "Justified" in options 3-8 refers to moral rather than legal justification. "The long term" refers to the period > 10 years in the future, once the full human consequences due to the virus and the lockdown have been mostly/fully manifest. Those wishing to explain their position on justification are invited to do so.

  4. Answers should reflect only the number of American deaths among the ~200K reported COVID deaths thus far. This means that members who i) believe Pres. Trump's policies have only forward-shifted deaths (moved deaths ahead in time), not necessarily caused more, ii) believe Pres. Trump will be responsible for many more COVID-related deaths in future, and/or ii) believe the number of COVID-related deaths will ultimately be offset (or even negated) by a large number of lives saved due to economic ramifications of Pres. Trump's policies should not take these factors into consideration when selecting a percentage. However, any or all of these factors can of course count for or against justifiability.
 

RabidAlpaca

Engineer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
20,803
Reaction score
26,566
Location
American Refugee in Europe
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
We've drastically underperformed other developed countries in this pandemic because we had no national strategy of any kind and the president actively lied to downplay the seriousness of the virus and attack and threaten people who wore masks.

The difference between us and the average developed country could be called "The Trump Effect" and is probably between 10 and 49%. Sure, a lot of people were going to die regardless, but it definitely didn't have to be this high.
 

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
18,389
Reaction score
1,999
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
Trump's affect on Covid deaths can't be quantified. Trump expected the expertise of epidemiologists who depended on false models based on false or incomplete world Covid data and, therefore, epidemiologists were more concerned with preserving hospital resources than preserving lives. Count on it, epidemiologists thought hospital resources would expire from this pandemic. Count on it, epidemiologists thought a choice would have to be made between saving lives and saving hospital resources. Trump counted on experts who weren't expert. The experts used methods like social distancing that didn't preserve lives as much as hospital resources.

The high rate of deaths from Covid isn't in spite of social distancing but because of social distancing.
 
Last edited:

Casper

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
24,285
Reaction score
9,715
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Trump's affect on Covid deaths can't be quantified. Trump expected the expertise of epidemiologists who depended on false models based on false or incomplete world Covid data and, therefore, epidemiologists were more concerned with preserving hospital resources than preserving lives. Count on it, epidemiologists thought hospital resources would expire from this pandemic. Count on it, epidemiologists thought a choice would have to be made between saving lives and saving hospital resources. Trump counted on experts who weren't expert. The experts used methods like social distancing that didn't preserve lives as much as hospital resources.

The high rate of deaths from Covid isn't in spite of social distancing but because of social distancing.
You seem oblivious to a lot of Facts, but I believe you have outdone yourself here, congratulations, sorta...
 

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
18,389
Reaction score
1,999
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
You seem oblivious to a lot of Facts, but I believe you have outdone yourself here, congratulations, sorta...
The last time social distancing was used to fight a pandemic was the Spanish Flu in the 1920s, or so. Lots of deaths, then, too. I'd think epidemiologists would understand that using social distancing means lots of death.
 

Novichok

Banned
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
719
Reaction score
153
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
A spot poll on Pres. Trump's culpability in COVID-related deaths, to get a feel for where DP sentiment is at.

Some notes:
  1. Select the answer that most closely matches your view. If no option is suitable, please select "the answer can't presently be quantified" and explain in-thread.

  2. The option "None - Pres. Trump's Actions Would Have No Predictable, Provable Effect on the Numbers" should be the choice for any members who: i) believe Pres. Trump's actions would have no predictable, provable effect on the numbers in the long term, ii) believe the COVID figures are so highly inflated that any delta in the "real" numbers is necessarily insignificant, or iii) do not consider the deaths of sick or infirm people via COVID as a comorbidity rather than the direct cause of death to be legitimately "COVID-related" due to the underlying age and health issues.

  3. "Justified" in options 3-8 refers to moral rather than legal justification. "The long term" refers to the period > 10 years in the future, once the full human consequences due to the virus and the lockdown have been mostly/fully manifest. Those wishing to explain their position on justification are invited to do so.

  4. Answers should reflect only the number of American deaths among the ~200K reported COVID deaths thus far. This means that members who i) believe Pres. Trump's policies have only forward-shifted deaths (moved deaths ahead in time), not necessarily caused more, ii) believe Pres. Trump will be responsible for many more COVID-related deaths in future, and/or ii) believe the number of COVID-related deaths will ultimately be offset (or even negated) by a large number of lives saved due to economic ramifications of Pres. Trump's policies should not take these factors into consideration when selecting a percentage. However, any or all of these factors can of course count for or against justifiability.
I am not going dignify another bloody foreigner until said foreigner offers a poll to show culpability of the Dem scum like Cuomo and others in the Dem states, which, btw, lead in the china virus death rates.
 

COTO

Panthera Uncia
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 4, 2019
Messages
2,052
Reaction score
783
Location
Toronto, Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I am not going dignify another bloody foreigner until said foreigner offers a poll to show culpability of the Dem scum like Cuomo and others in the Dem states, which, btw, lead in the china virus death rates.
I'm not trying to suggest Pres. Trump is or isn't to blame. Just like I'm not trying to suggest Gov. Cuomo is or isn't to blame.

Consider me a neutral foreign observer. I'm curious about how DP opinions fall.

Specifically, I'm interested in how many people blame Pres. Trump not at all vs. a little vs. a lot vs. entirely. Also, whether people blame him for some of the deaths but consider his strategy a better idea in the long run. The poll captures all these things.
 

ASHES

A Person
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
1,144
Reaction score
436
Location
Canada
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
I am not sure we can ever know. I think the federal government has some responsibility in taking the advice of the experts we pay for that advice, but with so many variables, including many unknowns that may never be known, I don't think it can be quantified with any sort of certainty. I'd only feel comfortable saying some amount of deaths were preventable, and Trump could have handled it better if he wasn't so hostile to scientific opinions that clashed with his ego.
 

Evilroddy

Pragmatic, pugalistic, prancing, porcine politico.
DP Veteran
Joined
May 30, 2017
Messages
5,614
Reaction score
3,076
Location
Canada
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
President Trump has been criminally negligent during his "management" of the Covid -19 crisis in America, in my humble opinion.

He should be held criminally and civilly accountable for that negligence.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,095
Reaction score
4,737
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Covid-19 was going to kill a lot of people regardless of the federal government's response. But Trump's negligence is definitely a significant contributing factor in the overall number. There would probably be 50k-100k fewer deaths today had Trump reacted appropriately to the virus with a strict, early lockdown for 6-8 weeks, nationwide planning and distribution of PPE and supplies to the hardest hit areas, a cautious reopening, and a nationwide mask mandate.
 

LouC

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
859
Location
Near Boise, ID
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Luckily we have ersatz president Donald Dip Sticks own measuring paradigm regarding Presidential handling of Pandemic's and thus, by his own meter, his own mishandling of this Pandemic, he is 100% responsible for every single death from Covid-19 in America.

It is only totally FAIR he is measured by his own weighting of Pandemic handling.

Woo Hoo!

MAGA 🇷🇺
 

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
14,839
Reaction score
19,427
Location
Mid-West USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
How many times do I have to repeat this?

Let's refer to the facts on the website: https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and-S/9bhg-hcku

As of 09/23/20 there have only been 14,316 deaths among cases aged 54 and under.

There were 148,737 in ages 65 and older.

The people MOST affected were the elderly in Nursing and Retirement homes
, and that was mainly due to STATE GOVERNORS like Cuomo who ordered cases to be housed and treated in "old folks homes."

That's 149,000 out of the 200,000 referred to. Even today, they are still the group at highest risk. Yet despite the increased cases we are seeing a slower and lower death rate as we properly segregate the most at-risk age groups.

Essentially, had those governors followed standard quarantine and medical treatment procedures, using (in NYC for example) the resources provided by Trump in those early days, those "death" numbers would be significantly lower. More like we see elsewhere around the world.

Meanwhile, the President has very limited powers over State governments. He can allocate funds and other resources, which he did. He can provide advisories, which he did. He can initiate travel bans and other international restrictions, which he did.

He can also try to provide a sense of calm and positive thinking. Which he tried...but the MSM and other "opponents" did the exact opposite.

So Trump's "culpability" is almost non-existent IMHO.
 
Last edited:

Aunt Antifa

Hunter of my heart
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
8,616
Reaction score
3,341
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
A spot poll on Pres. Trump's culpability in COVID-related deaths, to get a feel for where DP sentiment is at.

Some notes:
  1. Select the answer that most closely matches your view. If no option is suitable, please select "the answer can't presently be quantified" and explain in-thread.

  2. The option "None - Pres. Trump's Actions Would Have No Predictable, Provable Effect on the Numbers" should be the choice for any members who: i) believe Pres. Trump's actions would have no predictable, provable effect on the numbers in the long term, ii) believe the COVID figures are so highly inflated that any delta in the "real" numbers is necessarily insignificant, or iii) do not consider the deaths of sick or infirm people via COVID as a comorbidity rather than the direct cause of death to be legitimately "COVID-related" due to the underlying age and health issues.

  3. "Justified" in options 3-8 refers to moral rather than legal justification. "The long term" refers to the period > 10 years in the future, once the full human consequences due to the virus and the lockdown have been mostly/fully manifest. Those wishing to explain their position on justification are invited to do so.

  4. Answers should reflect only the number of American deaths among the ~200K reported COVID deaths thus far. This means that members who i) believe Pres. Trump's policies have only forward-shifted deaths (moved deaths ahead in time), not necessarily caused more, ii) believe Pres. Trump will be responsible for many more COVID-related deaths in future, and/or ii) believe the number of COVID-related deaths will ultimately be offset (or even negated) by a large number of lives saved due to economic ramifications of Pres. Trump's policies should not take these factors into consideration when selecting a percentage. However, any or all of these factors can of course count for or against justifiability.
We heard rhe Woodward tapes. He’s been holding packed rallies.

What would it look like for him NOT to be culpable.
 

Aunt Antifa

Hunter of my heart
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
8,616
Reaction score
3,341
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
How many times do I have to repeat this?

I have to refer to the facts on the website: https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Death-Counts-by-Sex-Age-and-S/9bhg-hcku

As of 09/23/20 there have only been 14,316 deaths among cases aged 54 and under.

There were 148,737 in ages 65 and older.

The people MOST affected were the elderly in Nursing and Retirement homes
, and that was mainly due to STATE GOVERNORS like Cuomo who ordered cases to be housed and treated in "old folks homes."

That's 149,000 out of the 200,000 referred to. Even today, they are still the group at highest risk, yet despite the increased cases we are seeing a slower and lower death rate as we properly segregate the most at-risk age groups.

Essentially, had those governors followed standard quarantine and medical treatment procedures, using (in NYC for example) the resources provided by Trump in those early days, those "death" numbers would be significantly lower. More like we see elsewhere around the world.

So Trump's "culpability" is almost non-existent IMHO.
B3DA89F5-F02C-45C0-9B8E-765AA8E4AFA6.jpeg
 

LouC

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 16, 2019
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
859
Location
Near Boise, ID
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Trump should only be measured by his own metrics.

By that he is 100% culpable for every COVID-19 death.

It is his "disaster" and his complete fault that “people died unnecessarily and through incompetence” from his personal Pandemic, it is his his incompetence, thus in his own words where he has blamed 100% of all deaths in a previous Pandemic to that President, so it is not my opinion, it is ersatz president Donald Trump's OWN JUDGEMENT that condemns him.

It isn't my opinion.

It is his hoisting of himself on his own petard.

MAGA 🇷🇺
 

Captain Adverse

Classical Liberal Sage
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
14,839
Reaction score
19,427
Location
Mid-West USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Trump should only be measured by his own metrics.

By that he is 100% culpable for every COVID-19 death.

It is his "disaster" and his complete fault that “people died unnecessarily and through incompetence” from his personal Pandemic, it is his his incompetence, thus in his own words where he has blamed 100% of all deaths in a previous Pandemic to that President, so it is not my opinion, it is ersatz president Donald Trump's OWN JUDGEMENT that condemns him.

It isn't my opinion...
Actually, as shown in my post #12 above, it IS your opinion.

An opinion shared by those same groups of people and media organizations who have been denigrating his Presidency since his election.

You are entitled to believe anything you wish. But as I also repeat over and over, FACTS matter. 😒
 

Aunt Antifa

Hunter of my heart
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
8,616
Reaction score
3,341
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
Actually, as shown in my post #12 above, it IS your opinion.

An opinion shored by those same groups of people and media organizations who have been denigrating his Presidency since his election.

You are entitled to believe anything you wish. But as I also repeat over and over, FACTS matter.
They do. There are no facts that support hte notion that Trump is blameless. It’s not even remotely possible to believe that and understand how our government works.
 

Moderate Right

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Messages
49,483
Reaction score
9,719
Location
Kentucky
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
A spot poll on Pres. Trump's culpability in COVID-related deaths, to get a feel for where DP sentiment is at.

Some notes:
  1. Select the answer that most closely matches your view. If no option is suitable, please select "the answer can't presently be quantified" and explain in-thread.

  2. The option "None - Pres. Trump's Actions Would Have No Predictable, Provable Effect on the Numbers" should be the choice for any members who: i) believe Pres. Trump's actions would have no predictable, provable effect on the numbers in the long term, ii) believe the COVID figures are so highly inflated that any delta in the "real" numbers is necessarily insignificant, or iii) do not consider the deaths of sick or infirm people via COVID as a comorbidity rather than the direct cause of death to be legitimately "COVID-related" due to the underlying age and health issues.

  3. "Justified" in options 3-8 refers to moral rather than legal justification. "The long term" refers to the period > 10 years in the future, once the full human consequences due to the virus and the lockdown have been mostly/fully manifest. Those wishing to explain their position on justification are invited to do so.

  4. Answers should reflect only the number of American deaths among the ~200K reported COVID deaths thus far. This means that members who i) believe Pres. Trump's policies have only forward-shifted deaths (moved deaths ahead in time), not necessarily caused more, ii) believe Pres. Trump will be responsible for many more COVID-related deaths in future, and/or ii) believe the number of COVID-related deaths will ultimately be offset (or even negated) by a large number of lives saved due to economic ramifications of Pres. Trump's policies should not take these factors into consideration when selecting a percentage. However, any or all of these factors can of course count for or against justifiability.
We had a choice to make, save people or have economic ruin that would have made the 1930's look like a boom. Trump chose operation warp speed and not economic ruin. Sure, Trump could have locked the country down to greatly decrease the virus deaths but the results would have been a 90% drop in GDP and 90% unemployment. All of those European countries the left brags about spent all of this time fighting the virus to have better numbers than the US and now as they open up they are seeing surges all over again. In other words, what they did didn't work. Trump was smart enough to know that months ago.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
62,984
Reaction score
36,312
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
IMHO, blame (for specific POTUS actions/inactions) is impossible to quantify.
 

Aunt Antifa

Hunter of my heart
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
8,616
Reaction score
3,341
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
IMHO, blame (for specific POTUS actions/inactions) is impossible to quantify.
Which is why he gets all of it. When a team underperforms, the coach gets fired.
 

Aunt Antifa

Hunter of my heart
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Messages
8,616
Reaction score
3,341
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Progressive
We had a choice to make, save people or have economic ruin that would have made the 1930's look like a boom. Trump chose operation warp speed and not economic ruin. Sure, Trump could have locked the country down to greatly decrease the virus deaths but the results would have been a 90% drop in GDP and 90% unemployment. All of those European countries the left brags about spent all of this time fighting the virus to have better numbers than the US and now as they open up they are seeing surges all over again. In other words, what they did didn't work. Trump was smart enough to know that months ago.
Trump killed 200k Americans to get there. He wasn’t vindicated. He committed genocide.
 

Overitall

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 25, 2019
Messages
5,117
Reaction score
1,102
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
A spot poll on Pres. Trump's culpability in COVID-related deaths, to get a feel for where DP sentiment is at.

Some notes:
  1. Select the answer that most closely matches your view. If no option is suitable, please select "the answer can't presently be quantified" and explain in-thread.

  2. The option "None - Pres. Trump's Actions Would Have No Predictable, Provable Effect on the Numbers" should be the choice for any members who: i) believe Pres. Trump's actions would have no predictable, provable effect on the numbers in the long term, ii) believe the COVID figures are so highly inflated that any delta in the "real" numbers is necessarily insignificant, or iii) do not consider the deaths of sick or infirm people via COVID as a comorbidity rather than the direct cause of death to be legitimately "COVID-related" due to the underlying age and health issues.

  3. "Justified" in options 3-8 refers to moral rather than legal justification. "The long term" refers to the period > 10 years in the future, once the full human consequences due to the virus and the lockdown have been mostly/fully manifest. Those wishing to explain their position on justification are invited to do so.

  4. Answers should reflect only the number of American deaths among the ~200K reported COVID deaths thus far. This means that members who i) believe Pres. Trump's policies have only forward-shifted deaths (moved deaths ahead in time), not necessarily caused more, ii) believe Pres. Trump will be responsible for many more COVID-related deaths in future, and/or ii) believe the number of COVID-related deaths will ultimately be offset (or even negated) by a large number of lives saved due to economic ramifications of Pres. Trump's policies should not take these factors into consideration when selecting a percentage. However, any or all of these factors can of course count for or against justifiability.
Well thought out poll. I applaud you. However I’m having trouble accepting any of your options. I’m leaning towards 1&2. One seems a bit facetious. The government is tasked with protecting our right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But that shouldn’t lean towards “nannism”.

Two seems to suggest direct involvement. If he’s responsible for the deaths then he’s also responsible for the lives saved. The latter outweighs the former.

Maybe I’ll go with two with the option of changing my mind. Got to give it to ya. You got my mind churning on this one.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
62,984
Reaction score
36,312
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Which is why he gets all of it. When a team underperforms, the coach gets fired.
I understand that (the buck stops here?) concept but, unlike the coach (or owner) of a sports team, the POTUS does not have the power to fire (or bench) Governors or congress critters who do not carry out his wishes.
 

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
18,389
Reaction score
1,999
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
We heard rhe Woodward tapes. He’s been holding packed rallies.

What would it look like for him NOT to be culpable.
There have been packed rallies against the ruling of the Taylor incident. You against those unprotected protests, for example?
 
Top Bottom