Poll: Liberal or Conservative

[CSA_TX]

A quick poll to get an idea of your views and which way you lean.

 

[Schweddy]

I voted for "less involved in my life and follow current laws and regulations".

I believe in the constitution, but also believe that folks are not smart enough to regulate themselves when it comes to morality. Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes.

We have elected a group of folks to stand on capitol hill for both our values and laws. If we do not agree with those values then we need to do something about it.

There are regulations such as seatbelts - which I don't like. But, If I REALLY disagreed with it, I would have gotten off my tush and did something about it. What Janet Jackson & Justin Timberlake did was a very very bad thing. They [FCC] have a set of standards and regulations for what is acceptable for broadcasts - again if I disagree it's time to write my congressman. Afterall they head the commission.

Neither of the issues stated are in the original constitution. Regardless if I am for or against specific regulations; I hold the upmost respect for the constitution and the laws of the land. Which includes Federal, state, and local laws.

 

[CSA_TX]

Not one to bring one's faith into a political debate. I have to wonder how one could say "Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes" The first amendment to the constitution which is the supreme law of our nation says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So by claiming that the United States is a christian nation is against the the constitution. Granted the founding fathers were god loving christians however they had seen the problems with a government sponsored religion first hand. So they set out to forge a new land were all religions would be protected and not one would be better than the other. So how can someone who supports the constitution what it says and means try to use the government to push religous values and morals on its citizens?

I am not saying there is a separation of church and state at all what I am saying is that for one to claim this country is a christian nation is the same as saying this country is a Jewish nation, etc...

Second point I would like to make is do you really want politians Like Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc.. to give you morals? I'm not a real fan of the morals they have personally. Instead I'll take the morals I got from the good book and my parents and go from there.

So bring it own let me know what you think?

 

[Schweddy]

Not one to bring one's faith into a political debate. I have to wonder how one could say "Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes" The first amendment to the constitution which is the supreme law of our nation says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

So by claiming that the United States is a christian nation is against the the constitution.

Being a constitutional buff as yourself, you realize that alot of those words are BASED on christian core values. If you deny that, you deny one of the main reasons our fathers came to our shores (other than for a profit).

CONGRESS cannot tell you what religion you must repect or what god you must bow down too. NOR can CONGREES become a religion in and of itself. Your can say what you want. So can the press. You may peacfully assemble and petition the governement.
This is what it says. Many many judges have tried to rewrite that - especially in very modern times.

I am not saying there is a separation of church and state at all what I am saying is that for one to claim this country is a christian nation is the same as saying this country is a Jewish nation, etc...

You are right, there is no separation of church and state.

Second point I would like to make is do you really want politians Like Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, etc.. to give you morals? I'm not a real fan of the morals they have personally.

You cannot give anyone morals. You cannot sell morals. You cannot pass a bucket with a bunch of moral slimey stuff in it. It doens't happen that way. You can however regulate it.
"Thou shall not steal" - I believe it's in the law somewhere.
"Thou shall not murder" - Yep thats there too.
"Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife" - Yep adultery is a law as well.
This list can get longer if you wish.

Now back to your point about Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy. I cannot stand the bastages. There is a thing called 'checks and balances' created in the constitution that I believe firmly in.

Instead I'll take the morals I got from the good book and my parents and go from there.

Awesome, so you know about the part where is says to obey the law of the land as well.

I do not see where we differ...

 

[KD5DBL]

OK Vauge... I'm probably going to regret wading in on this, but here goes...

I believe in the constitution, but also believe that folks are not smart enough to regulate themselves when it comes to morality. Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes.

but then later you say...

CONGRESS cannot tell you what religeon you must repect or what god you must bow down too. NOR can congress become a religion in and of itself. Your can say what you want. So can the press. You may peacfully assemble and petition the government.

Can you explain this? It sorta sounds like you want it both ways... for the government to force morality/religion on the masses, but only the one that you agree with.

The constitution guarantees freedom of religion, but makes no mention of what that might be because the founders knew that it would be different for each individual. Sooo... what is good/moral for you may be an abomination to someone else (and vice versa).

BTW: Good lunch discussion today... thanks!

 

[Schweddy]

Can you explain this? It sorta sounds like you want it both ways... for the government to force morality/religion on the masses, but only the one that you agree with.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear.

I do not want the government to force religion on anyone.

The basic moral of murder is wrong.
Stealing is wrong.
Lieing is wrong.

This is what laws are for. You have to have a moral base for laws.
Our's was founded with Christianity in mind.

That christian moral base is deterirorating. It scares me to think that folks think its ok for their kids to steal, have sex, and watch porn at very young ages. This promotes MORAL decay regardless what reliegon you study/participate in.

 

[CSA_TX]

Perhaps I need to clarify what I was saying per the post I was responding to with my constitutional knowledge. The full quote that caught my attention was

"I believe in the constitution, but also believe that folks are not smart enough to regulate themselves when it comes to morality. Our christian way of life is becoming rotten to the core in front of our eyes."

So if the people are not smart enough to regulate themselves are you not saying the government needs to regulate their morality. That is what I got out of it at least, perhaps I was wrong. If that is where you were going then we are definitely not seeing eye to eye on this one. I believe the government can and has the right to pass laws that can regulate actions however they have no right to pass laws in regard to my morales or beliefs.

"You can however regulate it.
"Thou shall not steal" - I believe it's in the law somewhere.
"Thou shall not murder" - Yep thats there too.
"Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife" - Yep adultery is a law as well.
This list can get longer if you wish. "

These are all actions not morals or beliefs so yes they can regulate them.

"Being a constitutional buff as yourself, you realize that christian of those words are BASED on christian core values. If you deny that, you deny one of the main reasons our fathers came to our shores (other than for a profit).

Again I repeat claiming that the United States is a christian nation is against the the constitution. So by trying to force christian values on Americans is against the constitution.

So what I have gotten out of your post so far is that the government needs to police our morales and force Christian values on its citizens. Yep land of the free home of the brave.

 

[CSA_TX]

per Vauge
"That christian moral base is deterirorating. It scares me to think that folks think its ok for their kids to steal, have sex, and watch porn at very young ages. This promotes MORAL decay regardless what reliegon you study/participate in"

again you say Christian morals. Again it apears you are trying to get the govenment to push a certain religous agenda on our country. Kids have been having sex for years not just recently, as a matter of fact my grandmother got married at 13 and I would bet she was having sex at that age also. I certanly enjoyed watching porn at a young age but I am not a perv except with my wife. So not to worried about that either, and I think the only people who think it is ok for their kids to steal are theives themselves.

 

[Schweddy]

Again I repeat claiming that the United States is a christian nation is against the the constitution.

I am sorry but the United States IS a Christian nation.

"In God we trust" is on all our money.
The 10 commandments are in the supreme court.
A prayer is made before opening congress every day.

I do not want the government to force religion on anyone.

Is it FORCED? No, and should not be.

Purhaps our definitions of 'morals' are defined differently.

Morals and religion to me are 2 seperate words and demand seperate definitions.

Morals are something that most humans believe is wrong. Regardless of his/her religion.

Religion is "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

 

[CSA_TX]

Does God only exist in Christianity? If so thats news to me.
The Ten comandments are in the Torah also.
I still beleive that claiming the United States as a Christion nation is not right and goes against the principles and founding ideas of this nation. that is my opinion I am going to back off and let some others join in on this subject. Please others join in and let us know what you think.

 

[Schweddy]

The Ten comandments are in the Torah also.

Are you aware that the first 5 books of the bible and the Torah are the same?

I am going to back off and let some others join in on this subject.

I will back off as well.

 

[Schweddy]

I still beleive that claiming the United States as a Christion nation is not right and goes against the principles and founding ideas of this nation.

I found this... thought you might be interested CSA.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

 

[shuamort]

I picked No Opinion on this poll for a reason... lemme explain:
1) I would like for the government to be less involved in my life and to follow the guidelines set forth in the constitutionYes, but since the bill of rights is omitted from this selection and not a part of the constitution I'm find problems completely conceding to this point.

2)more involved in regulating my life and the life of other because they do a better job. I disagree with this to most extents. Problems come up when it comes to items like pollution, protection in standards of food and drugs(USDA, FDA) where a consumer isn't able to protect themselves as well as a government could.

3)less involved in my life and follow current laws and regulations I don't agree with all of the current laws and regulations. High taxes, the fact that consensual "crimes" are still being prosecuted against, etc.

As for the founding fathers being Christians.... well, some were, some weren't.

Thomas Jefferson created his own version of the gospels; he was uncomfortable with any reference to miracles, so with two copies of the New Testament, he cut and pasted them together, excising all references to miracles, from turning water to wine, to the resurrection. In his Notes on Virginia he wrote: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury to my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestoes encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the War of Independence. But he was a Deist, from his Age of Reason "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. "

John Adams, the second U.S. President rejected the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and became a Unitarian. It was during Adams' presidency that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."This treaty with the Islamic state of Tripoli had been written and concluded by Joel Barlow during Washington's Administration. The U.S. Senate ratified the treaty on June 7, 1797; President Adams signed it on June 10, 1797 and it was first published in the Session Laws of the Fifth Congress, first session in 1797. Quite clearly, then, at this very early stage of the American Republic, the U.S. government did not consider the United States a Christian nation.

Other quotes:
George Washington- "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."

John Adams-“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

Thomas Jefferson-"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

James Madison-"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise"

Benjamin Franklin-“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Ethan Allen- “Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”

 

[Pacridge]

I am sorry but the United States IS a Christian nation.

"In God we trust" is on all our money.
The 10 commandments are in the supreme court.
A prayer is made before opening congress every day.

The "Ten Commandments" are in the Supreme Court? I did not know that. Where are they?

"Thou shall not steal" - I believe it's in the law somewhere.
"Thou shall not murder" - Yep thats there too.
"Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife" - Yep adultery is a law as well.
This list can get longer if you wish.

Adultery is against the law in your state? I didn't know that either. I know here in Oregon it's certainly not against any laws. In fact I was under the impression that the military and the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) was one of the last places in United States that still had adultery on the books.

 

[shuamort]

The "Ten Commandments" are in the Supreme Court? I did not know that. Where are they?

Here's a picture of them. They're a part of a larger relief that is a sort of pictoral summation of lawmakers throughout history*.

*(There's no historical proof of Moses outside of religious texts)**

**(The above caveat was inserted in case someone was trying to say I was implying that Moses and the Ten Commandments were real or not)***

***(The above caveat was fun)

 

[anomaly]

I'd have to say that this poll is pretty unfair. Most of you noble cons out there would say that 'if one is liberal, one wants more gov't in their lives' and vis-versa for conservatives. Of course the goal of this poll was to show that 'more people are conservative in thinking', and I'm sure the author believes himself successful. But is less gov't in ones life always conservative? Hardly. The definition of conservative in American politics is 'economic freedom, social 'order''. What do conservatives want, after all? A ban on abortion, a ban on gay marriage, things like that. So, socially, conservatives want less freedom, not more, and want more gov't to restrict us in our everyday life (or as they say, gov't doing what is 'morally right'). A liberal is the one who wants less gov't in their life socially, which is why I picked that category. A liberal, contrary to some conservative dogma, is not in love with gov't, we want gov't there to attempt to attain greater economic equality. Conservatives support economic freedom, which inevitably leads to greater inequality (anyone who has read my 'New Economy' thread in economics knows what I'm talking about). We support Keynesian economics, saying that the gov't has a responsibility to smoothe the bumps in the business cycle, in order to help the working man (some, like me, support the nationalisation of the economic, but thats why you'd call me socialist, modern liberals stay warily away from nationalisation). So, taking these facts, one can easily see that this poll shows nothing about whether one is conservative or liberal, as both a conservative and liberal want gov't, but in different places. Libertarian is the one who says gov't has no place in modern life anywhere, and an authoritarian says that gov't should be very involved in our life, economically and socially. CSA, if you are gleeful about your poll results, hold back that glee a bit, because this poll tells us nothing.

 

[Pacridge]

I'd have to say that this poll is pretty unfair. Most of you noble cons out there would say that 'if one is liberal, one wants more gov't in their lives' and vis-versa for conservatives. Of course the goal of this poll was to show that 'more people are conservative in thinking', and I'm sure the author believes himself successful. But is less gov't in ones life always conservative? Hardly. The definition of conservative in American politics is 'economic freedom, social 'order''. What do conservatives want, after all? A ban on abortion, a ban on gay marriage, things like that. So, socially, conservatives want less freedom, not more, and want more gov't to restrict us in our everyday life (or as they say, gov't doing what is 'morally right'). A liberal is the one who wants less gov't in their life socially, which is why I picked that category. A liberal, contrary to some conservative dogma, is not in love with gov't, we want gov't there to attempt to attain greater economic equality. Conservatives support economic freedom, which inevitably leads to greater inequality (anyone who has read my 'New Economy' thread in economics knows what I'm talking about). We support Keynesian economics, saying that the gov't has a responsibility to smoothe the bumps in the business cycle, in order to help the working man (some, like me, support the nationalisation of the economic, but thats why you'd call me socialist, modern liberals stay warily away from nationalisation). So, taking these facts, one can easily see that this poll shows nothing about whether one is conservative or liberal, as both a conservative and liberal want gov't, but in different places. Libertarian is the one who says gov't has no place in modern life anywhere, and an authoritarian says that gov't should be very involved in our life, economically and socially. CSA, if you are gleeful about your poll results, hold back that glee a bit, because this poll tells us nothing.

I didn't vote in the poll for the very reasons you're citing. I'm rather surprised one of the options wasn't "I want the Government to control nearly everything in my life and keep more of my earnings as taxes"

 

[Blue Hobgoblin]

I'm all for a number of welfare programs, but if the government just stuck to its Constitutional duties while intervening to protect people's rights (not step on them) and provided a basic welfare system so people who can't make it aren't foiundering, things would definitely be better.

 

[connie2005]

I do believe that which should this country, should following our founding fathers, and keep religion separate from state. Will leave in a diverse country, in which one day I hope will be our strong point. And, we can no longer push Christian values, over all others religions, that is practice in this country. I respect all others religions and beliefs, each should practice their own religion, on their own time and dollar.

 

[Schweddy]

Welcome to Debate Politics Connie2005!

 

[Pacridge]

I do believe that which should this country, should following our founding fathers, and keep religion separate from state. Will leave in a diverse country, in which one day I hope will be our strong point. And, we can no longer push Christian values, over all others religions, that is practice in this country. I respect all others religions and beliefs, each should practice their own religion, on their own time and dollar.

Welcome to Debate Politics!

I think you've hit on a key point. Church's have become so politically active, why aren't they paying taxes like everyone else?

 

[CSA_TX]

anomaly in response to this poll I would have to say yes I am very gleeful. There is someone on this board I will not mention any names that continues to claim he is the true conservative. However he keeps supporting more and more government infringment into my daily life. I was using this poll to try and prove that he beleives in more of a left leaning stance than he relizes.
I think the government should be less involved in my life and to follow the guidelines set forth in the constitution. That is the federal governments only right, to follow the constitution. I don't think they have the right to censor what I see on TV or hear on the radio and I don't beleive they should be pushing a Christian nation or any other religous agenda.
So anomaly you were wrong in why I chose to post this poll but I am gleeful in that a lot of people seemed to have the same ideas as I do when it comes to the federal governments roll in my life.

 

[anomaly]

anomaly in response to this poll I would have to say yes I am very gleeful. There is someone on this board I will not mention any names that continues to claim he is the true conservative. However he keeps supporting more and more government infringment into my daily life. I was using this poll to try and prove that he beleives in more of a left leaning stance than he relizes.
I think the government should be less involved in my life and to follow the guidelines set forth in the constitution. That is the federal governments only right, to follow the constitution. I don't think they have the right to censor what I see on TV or hear on the radio and I don't beleive they should be pushing a Christian nation or any other religous agenda.
So anomaly you were wrong in why I chose to post this poll but I am gleeful in that a lot of people seemed to have the same ideas as I do when it comes to the federal governments roll in my life.

I am curious as to who is the 'true conservative'. I, too, want the federal gov't to have a lesser role in my everyday life, that is, less role socially. Economically, gov't should pursue policy that narrows the ever widening gap between rich and poor. That's why I'd be considered to the left. I wonder, are you, CSA, a libertarian? It should be clear to you from my last post that conservatives, too, want some gov't involvement, but socially rather than economically. Are you saying that you oppose bans on abortion and gay marriage? If you do, I'd hardly consider you conservative in thinking. And what kind of gov't 'infringement' your friend supports. Is it economic policy, or social policy, because that will determine if your friend truly leans left or not.