Poll: Do You Favor Bailing Out Detroit?

[ttwtt78640]

And how does that program help Detroit and its people?

Could you wax eloquently for a few minutes about personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of your choices for living in a flood plain?

Could you discuss the elements of accepting personal responsibility of living along the coast where destructive and deadly seasonal storms are merely par for the course?

Could you pontificate about the duty to accept responsibility of living in a part of the nation where a fault exists in the earth and earthquakes are inevitable?

Could you educate us about the duty to accept personal responsibility of living in a part of the country with precious little water which has to be expensively taken from other areas of the nation just so others can live in that climate?

Could you inform us about the duty to accept personal responsibility for living in a tornado alley which you know darn well is subject to a high probability of damage on a somewhat regular basis?

Please do illuminate the dark recesses of our minds on all these things connected with personal responsibility.

Equating natural disasters with those caused by the negligence (or outright criminal actions) of elected morons is not a good analogy.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

So the solution is to place the burden on the shoulders of single mothers, who are working 2 and 3 jobs just to keep food on the table, and the children who are hungry.
Let me be the fist the say, you would make a very unfit public servant.

I would have to say that oftentimes, just like the voters in Detroit chose the wrong people to do the work of managing what was a great city at one time, that too often women are making similar choices about the men they have children with. Those are their decisions, once again not mine... I do feel sorry for the children, not so much for the mothers.

That is somewhat off topic and calls for a whole different thread, tho.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Equating natural disasters with those caused by the negligence (or outright criminal actions) of elected morons is not a good analogy.

How did city officials cause a 25% decline in population since 2010? Did they cause the 50% decline in manufacturing jobs since 2000?

What they have experienced is a long term economic drought resulting in a collapse of the tax base. It is a man-made disaster.

 

[haymarket]

I don't live in a flood plain, but if I chose to I would buy flood insurance, or accept the risk.

I don't live on the coast, but if Idid, I would be sure my insurance would cover my losses.

I don't live on a fault, but if I did I would get earthquake insurance, or plan to accept the possible losses.

I would not choose to live where there was inadequate water for my needs, but if I did I would not ask people in wet area to mail me a couple of gallons each day.

I did live in tornado alley for ba while. I had insurance.

It is about personal decisions and the acceptance of the risk/rewards of those decisions.

Seriously, if you want to help the people of Detroit, mail them a check each month. Just make sure the signature is yours, not mine or my grand kids.

How does one get to be such a highly evolved holier than thou perfect being?

 

[Woodman909]

Come on liberals. Ya'll need to get behind this in a big way.

After decades of democratic rule, during which none of them had the foresight to see what was happening as the businesses and people withdrew, why should the federal government bail it out? It should fall to the DNC.

 

[haymarket]

Every place in the world is subject to natural disaster through no fault of the people living there. An asteroid can hit the earth anywhere, you are gonna blame people for living on the Earth for that are you? It is a false equivalent, and if you don't know it, you should.

You falsely assume that the people living in those places do so with no knowledge of the risks and problems. Which is simply not the case..... at least for very long.

Do you want to argue unions and pensions? How the unions achieved many victories in wages, benefits and pensions for their members, to the tune of these being Pyrrhic Victories, where the legacy costs of all these are making the companies they worked for less and less competitive, driving some out of business as these costs are unsustainable? Those taking these inordinately high wages, benefits and pensions that were nice at the time, but unsustainable. It was kind of a Faustian bargain...eh?

When the right rants and raves, whines and cries about unions and high wages, I rarely if ever see the evidence of this allegation. Do you have that to provide for Detroit?

 

[haymarket]

Equating natural disasters with those caused by the negligence (or outright criminal actions) of elected morons is not a good analogy.

Oh I think its perfect as the innocent people living there are simply hit by both.

 

[ttwtt78640]

How did city officials cause a 25% decline in population since 2010? Did they cause the 50% decline in manufacturing jobs since 2000?

What they have experienced is a long term economic drought resulting in a collapse of the tax base. It is a man-made disaster.

Many of the manufacturing jobs simply moved to right to work states. The tax base "voting with their feet" was a symptom of the problem, not its cause.

 

[haymarket]

I would have to say that oftentimes, just like the voters in Detroit chose the wrong people to do the work of managing what was a great city at one time, that too often women are making similar choices about the men they have children with. Those are their decisions, once again not mine... I do feel sorry for the children, not so much for the mothers.

That is somewhat off topic and calls for a whole different thread, tho.

I would be happy to see evidence that the voters of Detroit chose the wrong people and they are responsible for the problems.

I concede readily that government of Detroit certainly played a role in all this. No doubt about it. These financial problems should have been dealt with a long time ago.

But having conceded that it is irrelevant to two much larger problems which killed Detroit:

1- loss of 2/3 of the City population and the jobs and tax base that went with it,
2- extreme racial polarization which led to Detroit being a city of mostly poor black people far less educated and far older than most other surrounding communities with far better resources.

If city government had some magic solution for those problems and they simply mismanaged its proper application, I am not aware of it. And I live right here in SE Michigan.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Come on liberals. Ya'll need to get behind this in a big way.

It's not my fight, but if a Canadian city of this size was in such trouble, I'd favor it being saved but I wouldn't just throw money at it. In effect, I'd have the federal government buy it, put in place a czar to govern it for the next decade, pass legislation nullifying every collective agreement of every public employee group, send in the military to put it under martial law and to raze to the ground every vacated building and property after passing legislation to seize it.

Then, start the process of building the city up again. No first world nation should allow a city of Detroit's size and historical importance as well as geographical importance, to wither away and die.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Oh I think its perfect as the innocent people living there are simply hit by both.

If you elect morons to govern your city then you are neither innocent nor deserving of a share of funds from those that did not do so. To simply reward the failure of some by taxing the success of others is not a good idea.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

Many of the manufacturing jobs simply moved to right to work states. The tax base "voting with their feet" was a symptom of the problem, not its cause.

Um, no, the manufacturing jobs left the US. We are not protecting the industries, we are engaging in a race to the bottom.

Your argument doesn't even support your claim of city planners as the cause, RTW STATES are not cities, cities are not states.

 

[haymarket]

Many of the manufacturing jobs simply moved to right to work states. The tax base "voting with their feet" was a symptom of the problem, not its cause.

I would be happy to examine that data if you could supply it.

I live in SE Michigan and much of the movement of factories in Detroit was to the suburbs and not out of state. The Big 3 have major plants in places like Livonia, Wayne, Wixom, Sterling Heights and other suburbs which used to be located in Detroit.

 

[Gaugingcatenate]

How does one get to be such a highly evolved holier than thou perfect being?

A silly and pretentiously put question, perhaps?

If one wants better results, you have to expect them. Often starts with being true to oneself, being logical, taking responsibility instead of pawning it off on someone or something else. Oh, and if you are incapable of doing it yourself, try to teach it to your kids anyhow...

 

[haymarket]

After decades of democratic rule, during which none of them had the foresight to see what was happening as the businesses and people withdrew, why should the federal government bail it out? It should fall to the DNC.

The big slide downwards began from 1950 through 1960 where - for the first time - Detroit actually lost population and full 10% of its citizens. That was the beginning of the end.

The two mayors during that decade were Louis Mariani and Alfred Cobo. Both were Republicans. The mayors since 1961 have either been Democrats or not affiliated with any party.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I would be happy to examine that data if you could supply it.

I live in SE Michigan and much of the movement of factories in Detroit was to the suburbs and not out of state. The Big 3 have major plants in places like Livonia, Wayne, Wixom, Sterling Heights and other suburbs which used to be located in Detroit.

So let the state of MI bail out Detriot, no need to ask the rest of the nation for help.

 

[CanadaJohn]

I would be happy to see evidence that the voters of Detroit chose the wrong people and they are responsible for the problems.

At the risk of being flippant, all the evidence you need is that the city was taken over by a federal manager and after checking the cupboard, he declared the city bankrupt. If you declare bankruptcy in your own household, doesn't matter the reasons, you are responsible in the end.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

At the risk of being flippant, all the evidence you need is that the city was taken over by a federal manager and after checking the cupboard, he declared the city bankrupt. If you declare bankruptcy in your own household, doesn't matter the reasons, you are responsible in the end.

Um....bankruptcy...is the shedding of responsibility.

 

[haymarket]

So let the state of MI bail out Detriot, no need to ask the rest of the nation for help.

I wonder if when the people of New Jersey, New York, Florida, Texas and other states need help, Michigan takes the F YOU attitude that seems to be the response to our state?

 

[haymarket]

At the risk of being flippant, all the evidence you need is that the city was taken over by a federal manager and after checking the cupboard, he declared the city bankrupt. If you declare bankruptcy in your own household, doesn't matter the reasons, you are responsible in the end.

that is only evidence of a balance sheet. No more and no less since that is the criteria for the EM takeover.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Um....bankruptcy...is the shedding of responsibility.

True, but it's an acknowledgement of the responsibility you're shedding.

 

[Gimmesometruth]

True, but it's an acknowledgement of the responsibility you're shedding.

Who said the monies owed to vendors is not being "acknowledged"?

The point is that you favor the vendors getting nothing.

 

[CanadaJohn]

that is only evidence of a balance sheet. No more and no less since that is the criteria for the EM takeover.

Do you acknowledge that the residents of Detroit elected their city government?

Do you acknowledge that the city government in Detroit had authority and responsibility for establishing yearly budgets and generating the revenues to support those budgets and expenditures?

Do you acknowledge that the city government in Detroit entered into collective agreements with their city employees over the past 50 years, signing off on all improvements in wages and benefits contained in those agreements?

Do you acknowledge that if the city government runs a deficit in a particular year, it is their sworn oath responsibility to account for that deficit in the next year and to ensure it isn't replicated in the next year?

Do you have any evidence at all of any extraordinary circumstances such as natural disasters or infrastructure catastrophes that hit the city so hard that they could not handle them in the budget year?

Bottom line, the current city government of Detroit may not be specifically responsible for all of Detroit's problems but all of the city governments of Detroit over the past 50 years are collectively responsible and all those governments were freely elected and reelected by the residents of Detroit.

So, yes, the people of Detroit are responsible for their mess.

 

[CanadaJohn]

Who said the monies owed to vendors is not being "acknowledged"?

The point is that you favor the vendors getting nothing.

When did I say any such thing?

 

[ttwtt78640]

I wonder if when the people of New Jersey, New York, Florida, Texas and other states need help, Michigan takes the F YOU attitude that seems to be the response to our state?

Actually the recent case of the fertilizer plant explosion in West, TX is a good example. FEMA help was denied, rightly, as it was a man caused disaster. If all big blue cities are now free to promise things far in excess of what their local tax base can support, declare a "woops" and then get tossed a pile of federal cash to "make things right" that amounts to taxation without representation. Those outside of Detriot had no say in the terrible decisions made leading up to the collapse, so why should they have any responsibility for the results?