POLL: Christians facing increased persecution in USA...

[beefheart]

 

[winston53660]

winston53660 to a certain poster:

"I could careless about your god"

certain unnamed poster response:

"You will burn in hell!"

Locically man who is persecuting whom?

 

[Cephus]

winston53660 to a certain poster:

"I could careless about your god"

certain unnamed poster response:

"You will burn in hell!"

Locically man who is persecuting whom?

Apparently, just disagreeing is offensive and an attack. Christians are just as stupid as liberals.

 

[winston53660]

Apparently, just disagreeing is offensive and an attack. Christians are just as stupid as liberals.

/sarcasm why are you persecuting my liberalness!!!!! You fascist pig!!! /end sarcasm :mrgreen:

 

[Somerville]

Christians....the message in this thread should be loud and clear.....

No matter what, your treatment will never be considered persecution.......no amount of suffering, no amount of inequity, no amount of bloodshed....

Because to those in this thread making excuses, you deserve MUCH worse. Death preferably.

It is long past time for people of faith and decency to understand that a movement is afoot that will eventually lead to your bloodshed. Better wise up and rise up SOON.

A fine example of a Christian spreading the 'gospel' about the ongoing and increasing persecution of his brethren and sisterns(sic), here in America. A gospel with little basis in reality but nonetheless believed by many to be true.

 

[Eric7216]

I would add this.
Who has forced anyone to bake a cake? Was it done at gun point? Did I miss something?

I can't really agree with some this.
1 - How is prayer or religious utterances illegal? My brother prays in restaurants all the time as I've noted in a different thread. It isn't illegal to talk about God or to pray in public. Not in the U.S. at least.
2 - Considering what the Native Americans went through, I think posting some of their quotes is the least we can do.
3 - Absolutely no. Free speech is not and should not be extended to kids in schools. Children should not be allowed to cuss out teachers, make rude or crude jokes in class, and several other things that adults can do in public. This also extends to the work place for adults.

1. There have been cases in which symbols seen as "religious" have been removed from public grounds. But mainly I was thinking about public organizations, including non-privately owned business that are required to make pubic accommodations. And those bakers were required to bake the cake or face stiff fines. Close to being a gun to their head. I believe that they went out of business.
2. That is a slippery slope-some prior acts and "repatriations". Sounds like the Hatfield-McCoy feud. What happened generations ago happened generations ago. There is no justice available at this point. And certainly violating the separation of church and state for one group would not be acceptable.
3. If you ban "religious" speech in schools you have to define religious speech in a way that doesn't establish one type of religious speech. What makes "religious" speech religious.

 

[Cephus]

1. There have been cases in which symbols seen as "religious" have been removed from public grounds. But mainly I was thinking about public organizations, including non-privately owned business that are required to make pubic accommodations. And those bakers were required to bake the cake or face stiff fines. Close to being a gun to their head. I believe that they went out of business.

They went out of business, but they made a ton of money from gullible religious idiots trying to "support" them. It was a scam. It's been tried many times since with the same results. The religious are gullible and fall for the same scam time and time again. But this whole argument really is foolish. These businesses are required, by law, by the consequences imposed on it by having a business license, to make public accommodations and not discriminate on *ANY* grounds, including religion. It applies equally to everyone. No public business can discriminate, no matter what justification they use. Being religious doesn't give you special powers. If you don't like that, you're welcome to close your doors, go out of business, then you can discriminate all you want.

2. That is a slippery slope-some prior acts and "repatriations". Sounds like the Hatfield-McCoy feud. What happened generations ago happened generations ago. There is no justice available at this point. And certainly violating the separation of church and state for one group would not be acceptable.

I agree with you there. Separation of church and state applies to everyone, or no one.

3. If you ban "religious" speech in schools you have to define religious speech in a way that doesn't establish one type of religious speech. What makes "religious" speech religious.

Nobody has banned religious speech in schools, only state-sponsored religious speech, speech made by representatives of the government. Kids can talk about religion all they want. Teachers, acting in their role as teachers, cannot. It is seen as state sponsorship of their views. If teachers want to talk about religion, they can do it after school hours, off school property, as private citizens. They knew that was the deal when they became teachers.

 

[Ntharotep]

1. There have been cases in which symbols seen as "religious" have been removed from public grounds. But mainly I was thinking about public organizations, including non-privately owned business that are required to make pubic accommodations. And those bakers were required to bake the cake or face stiff fines. Close to being a gun to their head. I believe that they went out of business.
2. That is a slippery slope-some prior acts and "repatriations". Sounds like the Hatfield-McCoy feud. What happened generations ago happened generations ago. There is no justice available at this point. And certainly violating the separation of church and state for one group would not be acceptable.
3. If you ban "religious" speech in schools you have to define religious speech in a way that doesn't establish one type of religious speech. What makes "religious" speech religious.

1. I would like to see the cases where this was done to just Christians (i.e. only Christian symbols were removed but other symbols allowed) with a citation. If separation of church and state applies to all religions then it is not persecution it is fairness.
The bakers were violating a couple's civil rights. Not allowing them to discriminate and persecute a lesbian couple is not in and of itself persecution. And what the largely conservative articles that cover this don't tell you is that their closing shop may not have been from the fines (considering they raised a hella lot more money than just the fine) but may have been from them already struggling, may have been because customers don't care much for sexual bigotry, or any number of other reasons. Again. Not Persecution.

2. I tend to agree here as well. I just said I don't feel terrible about it but the law is in your favor on that one.

3. Religious speech is not banned in schools. Kids can pray pretty much anywhere in school except in the classroom, itself where teaching should be going on anyhow. And that is mostly for teachers so that no one religion is placed above another. Again. Not persecution, fairness across the board. Its a protected right for kids to pray when they are not in class.
Reference:
Religious Tolerance and Prayer in Schools

So. A lot of this seems to be that if Christianity is not catered to as the center of attention in the U.S. then it equal persecution.

 

[HenryChinaski]

There is plenty of documentation on the subject.....most who will go overboard defending the likes of obama or Hillary and research things, don't bother to research this.



Not for hundreds of years.......let's stay current shall we.



Nope. Being forced to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding is wrong. Any good Christian should have the right to refuse aiding and abetting that perversion!



No they don't..Jews are going through the same crapola!



Yes...they are...worldwide!

If this conversation was taking place in 1964 your statement would read "Nope. Being forced to bake a wedding cake for a negro wedding is wrong. Any good Christian should have the right to refuse aiding and abetting that perversion!" Gay has become the new black for fundie Christians who use their beliefs as an excuse to discriminate against those they disapprove of.

 

[Mr Person]

A poll finds that, in just two years, the number of Americans who think Christians are facing growing intolerance in the U.S. has drastically increased.

Sixty-three percent of respondents in the LifeWay Research survey said they agree or strongly agree that Christians are facing growing levels of persecution, up from 50 percent in 2013. The bulk of that surge comes from respondents who said they “strongly agree” with the statement, a number that increased from 28 percent to 38 percent.

Christians facing increased persecution in America: poll - Washington Times

That is hilarious.


Bigots are butthurt about not being able to refuse to sell pizza to gay people, and now they call it persecution.

There are a lot of conservatives who need to get over their false victimhood complex. Especially the cowardly bigots who try to hide discrimination behind cries of "religious freedom." They need to keep their religion to themselves. This isn't a theocracy.




From your link: "That decision has intensified the debate about where religious liberty ends and discrimination begins. Gay couples contend that their rights are violated when religious wedding vendors decline to service same-sex wedding ceremonies, while religious bakers and florists believe their right to religious freedom is the one being trammeled."

What hilarious dishonest IDIOCY. Do these imbeciles think they are fooling anyone?

Nobody actually believes that if they sell a product to a person, and that person later uses that product at a reception following a ceremony, that this means the product's manufacturer was participating in the ceremony.

 

[Mr Person]

No they don't..Jews are going through the same crapola!

I'm Jewish and not feeling persecuted at the moment. Strange that you would speak on my behalf in order to claim that an inability to discriminate against gay people is persecution...

 

[Northern Light]

Persecution is part of the Christian religious complex. You're not doing it right unless you feel the world is against you, à la Jesus.

American Christians will always be one of the last special interest groups to admit how privileged they are.

 

[Eric7216]

These businesses are required, by law, by the consequences imposed on it by having a business license, to make public accommodations and not discriminate on *ANY* grounds, including religion. It applies equally to everyone. No public business can discriminate, no matter what justification they use. Being religious doesn't give you special powers. If you don't like that, you're welcome to close your doors, go out of business, then you can discriminate all you want.

I agree with you there. Separation of church and state applies to everyone, or no one.

Nobody has banned religious speech in schools, only state-sponsored religious speech, speech made by representatives of the government. Kids can talk about religion all they want. Teachers, acting in their role as teachers, cannot. It is seen as state sponsorship of their views. If teachers want to talk about religion, they can do it after school hours, off school property, as private citizens. They knew that was the deal when they became teachers.

Perhaps some day society will advance to the liberal state implied by Article 18 of the Universal Code of Human Rights.

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

You are right that there is nothing special about religious rights. The United Nations document is correct here in understanding that there is no wall between religious thought and other thought. All thought and beliefs should be equally authorized and supported without some special thing called religious speech. I have yet to hear a good consensus as to what religious speech is. Usually we get this parochial stuff about Judeo-Christian religion but that is simply because that is known here. Religion is simply an belief held with ardor and by faith. Such as environmentalism.
Article 18 affirms that simply because you are operating in a public sphere that you do not have to hide your beliefs. Public Accommodation laws are illiberal and a violation of freedoms. No one is persecuting a lesbian couple-they just don't want to bake them a cake. A the lesbian couple does not have to do anything for them either. There is some irrational fear that that baker is going to lead to the demise of civilization. No. Just go to another baker and allow that baker to exercise his freedom of thought. Buyers discriminate and sellers should be allowed to as well. And support Article 18.

 

[Slyfox696]

It appears as if most in this thread have come to the correct conclusion that it is laughable for Christians to claim they are being persecuted. When one's claims of persecution essentially amount to "we are no longer granted as many special privileges, especially when it comes to discriminating against others", then it's pretty clear one has no idea what persecution actually is.

 

[Cephus]

Perhaps some day society will advance to the liberal state implied by Article 18 of the Universal Code of Human Rights.

Hopefully one day, people will just outgrow religion entirely and this will be a moot point.

You are right that there is nothing special about religious rights. The United Nations document is correct here in understanding that there is no wall between religious thought and other thought. All thought and beliefs should be equally authorized and supported without some special thing called religious speech. I have yet to hear a good consensus as to what religious speech is. Usually we get this parochial stuff about Judeo-Christian religion but that is simply because that is known here. Religion is simply an belief held with ardor and by faith. Such as environmentalism.

There are a lot of things that act, essentially, the same as religion. Any position for which there is blind faith and no willingness to change your mind based on evidence is "religious" and equally irrational. It happens around here all the time, for political positions and social positions, where people desperately want something to be true whether there's any reason whatsoever to think that it actually is. Religious thinking is unfortunately not limited to religion.

Article 18 affirms that simply because you are operating in a public sphere that you do not have to hide your beliefs. Public Accommodation laws are illiberal and a violation of freedoms. No one is persecuting a lesbian couple-they just don't want to bake them a cake. A the lesbian couple does not have to do anything for them either. There is some irrational fear that that baker is going to lead to the demise of civilization. No. Just go to another baker and allow that baker to exercise his freedom of thought. Buyers discriminate and sellers should be allowed to as well. And support Article 18.

Nobody should have to hide their beliefs, but then again, nobody's beliefs should allow them to abuse others. Everyone should have the same rights and the same responsibilities. What goes on in your own head is your business, how you express those beliefs in public is not. Nobody gets exceptions because they happen to hold the dominant cultural delusion. It's equality for all or equality for none, nothing else makes any sense.

 

[Lovebug]

Only intolerant Christians are facing growing intolerance

 

[Absentglare]

A poll finds that, in just two years, the number of Americans who think Christians are facing growing intolerance in the U.S. has drastically increased.

Sixty-three percent of respondents in the LifeWay Research survey said they agree or strongly agree that Christians are facing growing levels of persecution, up from 50 percent in 2013. The bulk of that surge comes from respondents who said they “strongly agree” with the statement, a number that increased from 28 percent to 38 percent.

Christians facing increased persecution in America: poll - Washington Times

Poll shows Christians getting persecution complex out of reduction in ability to exert religious oppression onto other Americans.

In other news, the sky is blue, water is wet, and pain hurts.

 

[Eric7216]

Nobody should have to hide their beliefs, but then again, nobody's beliefs should allow them to abuse others. Everyone should have the same rights and the same responsibilities. What goes on in your own head is your business, how you express those beliefs in public is not. Nobody gets exceptions because they happen to hold the dominant cultural delusion. It's equality for all or equality for none, nothing else makes any sense.

Well, that is contrary to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights when it states: "either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his belief in teaching, practice, and observance. " A freedom that is not publicly performed and only exists in one's own thoughts is not much of a freedom.

Nobody gets exceptions because they happen to hold the dominant cultural delusion.

I love that line. I suspect that we disagree on what the dominant cultural delusion is but as long as we agree that nobody gets an exception than I'm happy. I suspect those bakers believe that the dominant cultural delusion is the righteousness of homosexuality. You may argue that is not the dominant cultural viewpoint (or delusion) but it is among Oregon lawmakers and therefore effectively the dominant viewpoint. .

 

[Cephus]

Well, that is contrary to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights when it states: "either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his belief in teaching, practice, and observance. " A freedom that is not publicly performed and only exists in one's own thoughts is not much of a freedom.

I really don't care about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It's just a codified opinion of an organization that I have virtually no respect for whatsoever.

I love that line. I suspect that we disagree on what the dominant cultural delusion is but as long as we agree that nobody gets an exception than I'm happy. I suspect those bakers believe that the dominant cultural delusion is the righteousness of homosexuality. You may argue that is not the dominant cultural viewpoint (or delusion) but it is among Oregon lawmakers and therefore effectively the dominant viewpoint. .

They can believe whatever they want, but homosexuality demonstrably exists. Their gods do not. They can come on back when they can demonstrate otherwise.

 

[DamnYankee]

A poll finds that, in just two years, the number of Americans who think Christians are facing growing intolerance in the U.S. has drastically increased.

Thanks to leftists.

 

[Eric7216]

I really don't care about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It's just a codified opinion of an organization that I have virtually no respect for whatsoever.

They can believe whatever they want, but homosexuality demonstrably exists. Their gods do not. They can come on back when they can demonstrate otherwise.

Sorry to see you back away from that great quote:

Nobody gets exceptions because they happen to hold the dominant cultural delusion.

And I stated that the bakers perhaps considered the dominate cultural delusion not homosexuality, which does exist, but the righteousness of it. Similar to your view-religion does exist, that is undeniable. What you consider a dominate cultural delusion is, perhaps, the existence of god or something. Of course god and religion are two separate issues. Not all religions have a belief in god. (Such as Unitarianism, Buddhism, Juche) And not all beliefs in god have a religion attached. (Such as animism, paganism, or Norse mythology)

When you start wanted to have governmental designations as to appropriate or inappropriate cultural delusions you are supporting totalitarianism.

 

[Logicman]

Gay has become the new black for fundie Christians who use their beliefs as an excuse to discriminate against those they disapprove of.

Ah - there's one of the favorite liberal buzz words - "discriminate". Which behavior do you discriminate against?

Do you approve of pedophilia, or do you DISCRIMINATE against it (by not legitimizing it, etc.)?

The approval and acceptance of carnal debauchery is no virtue.

 

[Somerville]

Ah - there's one of the favorite liberal buzz words - "discriminate". Which behavior do you discriminate against?

Do you approve of pedophilia, or do you DISCRIMINATE against it (by not legitimizing it, etc.)?

The approval and acceptance of carnal debauchery is no virtue.

Oh look, another 'good' Christian attempting to conflate assaults upon children with love between consenting adults. Is it because they have no other reason for their bias and hatred?

Time and again, we read of homophobes being caught out as closeted gays. Studies indicate self-hatred, often created by strict religious upbringing, can cause some to strike out against those who openly display same-sex attraction. Those who attack LGBT persons seem to be trying to deny to themselves their own desires.

 

[DamnYankee]

Only intolerant Christians are facing growing intolerance

Intolerance defined by leftists is the simple practice of being Christian. Therefore leftist persecute Christians for being Christian.

This persecution by the left is one of the methods in which leftists are destroying the country.

 

[Cephus]

Sorry to see you back away from that great quote:
And I stated that the bakers perhaps considered the dominate cultural delusion not homosexuality, which does exist, but the righteousness of it. Similar to your view-religion does exist, that is undeniable. What you consider a dominate cultural delusion is, perhaps, the existence of god or something. Of course god and religion are two separate issues. Not all religions have a belief in god. (Such as Unitarianism, Buddhism, Juche) And not all beliefs in god have a religion attached. (Such as animism, paganism, or Norse mythology)

When you start wanted to have governmental designations as to appropriate or inappropriate cultural delusions you are supporting totalitarianism.

But those are not delusions, they are demonstrably real. Gods are not. So my original statement stands, no matter how hard you try to twist it.