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Politicians getting paid...

should the politicians keep getting paid?


  • Total voters
    54
If the government shuts down and federal employees are not getting paid... should the politicians keep getting paid?

I don't think they should be. More importantly though, I do not believe the government should be able to shutdown. If congress cannot agree on appropriations, it should just default to current levels of funding until they can.
 
She’s the exception. As stated earlier the average house member is worth 900K. That’s middle class wealth in most big cities.

Where are you getting your middle class numbers?
 
I believe that Trump has foregone his pay but the rest of the cowards in congress who profit from inside trading don't want any part of that.

I am sure it's tuff. His properties are taking a hair cut too not taking govt. to them with this shutdown.
 
I believe that Trump has foregone his pay but the rest of the cowards in congress who profit from inside trading don't want any part of that.

Yes, he said that. He says lots of things that he is going to do and never actually does. Remember the $5M he raised for veterans the day he got butt-hurt and skipped a party debate? He didn't actually give it to the veterans until he was called out on it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...b3d9215ade1_story.html?utm_term=.d7d3c747b4bd

Trump isn't known for separating himself from his money. He made some announcements about this early in his presidency. He may have actually done it, but his track record suggests he may have tried to take credit for it and not have done it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...4c723a2becb_story.html?utm_term=.1f4310940a5d

I am skeptical. It's not a big deal one way or another, other than he is a blowhard that lies a lot. I, for one, will give him no such credit unless there is tangible evidence from the RECEIVING organization that they actually got the money.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/08/false-stories-revive-claim-about-trump-salary-donation/

Sorry, that was a sidebar. Carry on.
 
what i want is for everyone to have debt free access to as much education as they want, as well as a first world health care system that bankrupts no one. members of congress struggling to pay the rent like everyone else has to do is low on my "oh no, not that" list. as for only the rich having access to congress, i doubt that would be much different than the current situation.

What you are asking for is a benevolent dictatorship.
 
What you are asking for is a benevolent dictatorship.

My mother(1924-1999) was all in favor of this^^^^^^^



We are heading to 1/2 of her wish.........
 
If I had my way, elected federal politicians and wouldn't be given an salary for their service. They'd be given, as they were from 1789-1815, and again from 1817 to 1855 a per diem for time spent in Washington and expense reimbursement while traveling on government business.

They ought to do what representatives did when the country was created: come to DC, serve, and then return from whence they came and re-enter the business world to realize or suffer the effects of the laws they passed. After all, if the laws one passed are so darn good for everyone, as one of the writers and signers of them, one should be not only chomping at the bit to avail oneself of them, but also to return to truly remunerative work at wages that can sustain the lifestyle that accorded one the renown to win an election.

But doesn't this again lead to a scenario where only the wealthy can afford to be in Congress, which I believe was largely the case at the founding? Unless you're going to stipulate that Congressmen can work their day jobs when not doing the country's business how are the to put food on the table?
 
what i want is for everyone to have debt free access to as much education as they want, as well as a first world health care system that bankrupts no one. members of congress struggling to pay the rent like everyone else has to do is low on my "oh no, not that" list. as for only the rich having access to congress, i doubt that would be much different than the current situation.

Believe it or not I want the same things. I haven't been shy about pointing out that you need an educated populace for a free society to work and that healthcare, as currently instituted isn't a free market and thus should not be run like one.

That said I disagree with you about the current situation at least as far as House members go.
 
Their obligations at home were supposed to keep them from making a career of it. Citizen legislators, not career politicians.

I agree but I don't believe that counters my argument. A 1 term member of the house still has to pay his mortgage, put food on the table and pay rent on a place to live in DC.
 
Where are you getting your middle class numbers?

I live in suburban Suffolk County New York. Average houses in my middle class neighborhood go for anywhere from 350,000 to 500,000 dollars. Add a 401K and you're pretty much at a million dollars in terms of net worth. I'd think it's not much different in most major metropolitan areas.


On the cost side an apartment in NYC will likely set you back $3,000 a month. In suburban Nassau and Suffolk more like $2,000 a month. I don't know about DC but I expect costs to be comparable.
 
But doesn't this again lead to a scenario where only the wealthy can afford to be in Congress, which I believe was largely the case at the founding? Unless you're going to stipulate that Congressmen can work their day jobs when not doing the country's business how are the to put food on the table?

Red:
  • Well, the model I suggested does preclude unaccomplished individuals and/or paupers from aspiring to Congress or the WH. That it does, doesn't bother me in the least. I can think of no good reason to have either sort making and voting on laws and policy for the country.
  • As for whether it means only the wealthy can, well, that depends on how one measures/defines "wealthy." It does mean that one must have some income (at least ~$40K - $80K, depending on where one lives) to support oneself when one is one's home district.
Read the next section and you'll see that basically, no, such a stipulation doesn't, pragmatically speaking, preclude accomplished folks of relatively "normal" means from holding Congressional seats.

Blue:
I don't know why one'd need to stipulate that, for that already happens. For example:
  • Rep. Nancy Pelosi -- Vineyard
  • Rep. Bob Dold -- Rose Pest Solutions
  • Rep. Rob Blum -- Software development firm
  • Rep. Rick Allen -- Construction company
  • Rep. Don Beyer -- Car dealerships
  • Rep. Mark Takai -- Insurance brokerage and consulting firm
  • Rep. Mark DeSaulnier -- Restaurateur
  • Rep. Jim Renacci -- Investment management, accounting and consulting
You don't think their businesses stop depositing money in their bank accounts simply because they are members of Congress, do you? Sometimes, however, members of Congress opt to sell their firms upon winning their elections. That is case for Rep. John Delaney of Maryland. Others rely primarily on their spouses' career to sustain themselves. Such is the case for Claire McCaskill whose husband owns several businesses, although Claire is also an author who earns money from her own endeavors.

Indeed, with all the "intrigue" and public policy going on, what member of Congress can't make money writing books while also holding office. It's not as though they haven't something to write about. McCaskill is hardly the only member of Congress to write a book while seated.


ETA
BTW, it's worth noting that members of Congress really don't have to spend much money at all when in DC. They may occasionally have to pay for a meal and for transportation around town and to the airport. That's about it. If they opt to use their office as an apartment:
  • They are not charged any rent. They receive no utility bills. They don’t pay for the daily cleaning services. Microwaves and refrigerators have been installed in most suites. There’s a half bathroom connected to each personal office, and the showers at the members’ gym open at 5:30 a.m. In short, lawmakers who choose their offices as their crash pads are getting a valuable government freebie -- worth 10 percent or more of their $174,000 annual salary.
 
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Believe it or not I want the same things. I haven't been shy about pointing out that you need an educated populace for a free society to work and that healthcare, as currently instituted isn't a free market and thus should not be run like one.

That said I disagree with you about the current situation at least as far as House members go.

I'd be willing to let representatives continue pretending to be nobility in exchange for debt free post secondary education and first world access to health care for everyone.
 
Absolutely not! I’m sorry but if anyone isn’t getting paid then our politicians should get nothing
 
Only those that refuse to negotiate should lose their salary.
 
Red:
  • Well, the model I suggested does preclude unaccomplished individuals and/or paupers from aspiring to Congress or the WH. That it does, doesn't bother me in the least. I can think of no good reason to have either sort making and voting on laws and policy for the country.
  • As for whether it means only the wealthy can, well, that depends on how one measures/defines "wealthy." It does mean that one must have some income (at least ~$40K - $80K, depending on where one lives) to support oneself when one is one's home district.
Read the next section and you'll see that basically, no, such a stipulation doesn't, pragmatically speaking, preclude accomplished folks of relatively "normal" means from holding Congressional seats.

Blue:
I don't know why one'd need to stipulate that, for that already happens. For example:
  • Rep. Nancy Pelosi -- Vineyard
  • Rep. Bob Dold -- Rose Pest Solutions
  • Rep. Rob Blum -- Software development firm
  • Rep. Rick Allen -- Construction company
  • Rep. Don Beyer -- Car dealerships
  • Rep. Mark Takai -- Insurance brokerage and consulting firm
  • Rep. Mark DeSaulnier -- Restaurateur
  • Rep. Jim Renacci -- Investment management, accounting and consulting
You don't think their businesses stop depositing money in their bank accounts simply because they are members of Congress, do you? Sometimes, however, members of Congress opt to sell their firms upon winning their elections. That is case for Rep. John Delaney of Maryland. Others rely primarily on their spouses' career to sustain themselves. Such is the case for Claire McCaskill whose husband owns several businesses, although Claire is also an author who earns money from her own endeavors.

Indeed, with all the "intrigue" and public policy going on, what member of Congress can't make money writing books while also holding office. It's not as though they haven't something to write about. McCaskill is hardly the only member of Congress to write a book while seated.


ETA
BTW, it's worth noting that members of Congress really don't have to spend much money at all when in DC. They may occasionally have to pay for a meal and for transportation around town and to the airport. That's about it. If they opt to use their office as an apartment:
  • They are not charged any rent. They receive no utility bills. They don’t pay for the daily cleaning services. Microwaves and refrigerators have been installed in most suites. There’s a half bathroom connected to each personal office, and the showers at the members’ gym open at 5:30 a.m. In short, lawmakers who choose their offices as their crash pads are getting a valuable government freebie -- worth 10 percent or more of their $174,000 annual salary.

I've slept in my office before - most notably for a week after 9/11. Our facility had a gym with a shower and a kitchen so I had all of those amenities and I had a reasonably comfortable cot. It wasn't fun. I can't imagine loving doing that 5 days a week every week for a couple of years.

Pelosi et. al. really bolster my point. They are rich and can afford to work for free. Given that the average house member has a net worth of less than a million I'd say most of them don't own businesses that continue to pay them when they're not around but are more typically lawyers in private practice who actually need their salaries to pay their bills. My sense is that not paying Congressmen would preclude accomplished but not wealthy people - your typical doctor, lawyer, college professor etc - from holding office and leave the business of governing to only the wealthy and given that Pelosi has a net worth of 120,000,000 she'd certainly be considered wealthy by most standards.

I'm not opposed to wealthy people in office, they are certainly accomplished though I'd argue that amassing wealth alone, assuming it was amassed and not married into or inherited, is not an indicator of fitness for public service, but a Congress, the House moreso than the Senate, comprised wholly of rich people would not be representative of the people.
 
Almost there. I believe it's 30 days and then Trump can implement RIF (reduction in force). The only way to get rid of liberals in government, since you can't actually fire them.

Got a link for that?
 
Worse, many of the Democrats decided this was a great opportunity to go on vacation traveling the world at taxpayer expense, including wanting it taken out of the military's budget. I guess Pelosi and her staff will have to fly commercial if she wants to go legally smoke pot in Brussels, though it still would be at government/taxpayer expense.

If Pelosi wants to smoke pot legally, she need only go home to California.

Our representatives travel to other countries from time to time in order to better prepare themselves to legislate foreign policy on our behalf. That wasn't a vacation she was planning, and Trump violated national security by opening his little cake hole about it.
 
Worse, many of the Democrats decided this was a great opportunity to go on vacation traveling the world at taxpayer expense, including wanting it taken out of the military's budget. I guess Pelosi and her staff will have to fly commercial if she wants to go legally smoke pot in Brussels, though it still would be at government/taxpayer expense.

Oh, and FYI, cannabis is illegal in Belgium, which is where Brussels is located. Find a freaking map, dude.
 
It doesn't matter whether the pols get paid or not during a shutdown.

Most of them have nice big bank accounts to tide them over.

And those who don't can always call their lobbyist friends for help.


(Someone told me in another thread that the legislature in Texas meets every two years. What a splendid idea for the federal legislature. The more time they spend in D.C., the more mischief they think up.)
 
I've slept in my office before - most notably for a week after 9/11. Our facility had a gym with a shower and a kitchen so I had all of those amenities and I had a reasonably comfortable cot. It wasn't fun. I can't imagine loving doing that 5 days a week every week for a couple of years.

Pelosi et. al. really bolster my point. They are rich and can afford to work for free. Given that the average house member has a net worth of less than a million I'd say most of them don't own businesses that continue to pay them when they're not around but are more typically lawyers in private practice who actually need their salaries to pay their bills. My sense is that not paying Congressmen would preclude accomplished but not wealthy people - your typical doctor, lawyer, college professor etc - from holding office and leave the business of governing to only the wealthy and given that Pelosi has a net worth of 120,000,000 she'd certainly be considered wealthy by most standards.

I'm not opposed to wealthy people in office, they are certainly accomplished though I'd argue that amassing wealth alone, assuming it was amassed and not married into or inherited, is not an indicator of fitness for public service, but a Congress, the House more so than the Senate, comprised wholly of rich people would not be representative of the people.

Green:
Did you bother to read the content to which I linked in the post to which your above remarks are a reply? Members of Congress are in DC 83 days a year, per Rep. Mike Quigley.


Red:
Pelosi is wealthy; however, even if she weren't, she has sources of income that "pay" regardless of whether she works in DC/Congress or works back home in the business. As I noted, should one, prior to one's election, lack independent income sources, members of Congress have (non-shady) income producing opportunities. I noted one that is readily available to every member of Congress simply because they are members of Congress.


Blue:
I don't know the average but given what the median is, don't you think you're splitting hairs there?


Brown:
Yes, they're accomplished (I glean you and I have differing notions of what that term means), but, in general, high performing ("accomplished," as opposed to folks who do their jobs well, but who don't stand out in their field) professionals are also wealthy.

Note:
It's very hard to generalize accurately about professors' wealth because a fair share of their income may come from outside sources such as consulting, expert testimony, summer grants, speaking fees, patent royalties, appointments, etc. rather than from their college/university. There is also a big gap between the salary of adjuncts (essentially part-time college teachers) and research professors. Then there are B-school professors, who, along with other profs who consult for and research topics that "hit the bottom line" of corporate America and venture capitalists (econ, math, psych, engineering, natural sciences, and a few others), in general, are in a professorial pay league all their own. Put another way, "publish or perish" applies to academics' income without regard to their tenure prospects.


Pink:
I don't think so.


Teal:
Accomplished folks generally are wealthy. Their accomplishment, not their wealth, is what qualifies them for public service; however, neither makes them fit to be elected office holders and policy makers. Fitness for such positions has everything to do with one's character, which is about how one does the stuff one does. One's accomplishments and how one made them together demonstrate one's comprehension of and facility with doing what it takes -- and what's possible, probable and unlikely -- to thrive in the US given extant (and not) opportunities, culture, standards, laws and policies, the "rules of the game," as it were.

Such folks are the people whom I'd have legislating for the US because, frankly, I don't want a bunch of low to mediocre achievers setting the bar and defining the "rules of the game." I had rather leaders implement policy and inspire the citizenry to "step up," not coast or worse.


A pauper has plenty to share about what not to do if one aims to get rich, but he is of no use in learning what to do to get rich.
-- Xelor informing my kids that everyone has something useful to share, but the usefulness of what they have to share varies.​
 
Benevolent dictatorship ... isn't that an oxymoron?

No.
  • "Dictatorship" describes a type of topmost government executive.
  • "Benevolent" describes a quality of one's character and behavior.
A dictator can be barbarous, benevolent, or something in between; moreover, s/he can be any of the three at various moments and with regard to his/her promulgation of any given policy or directive.

It may help you to think of it this way: all dictators definitionally are despots (def 1a), but a dictator is not definitionally despotic (adj. form applying to def 1b). Whether a dictator is or isn't despotic depends on the person, not the title.
 
If the government shuts down and federal employees are not getting paid... should the politicians keep getting paid?

I would go one step further and not allow the Politicians to go on vacation, or lobby, until they get the job done; they can't serve themselves. Trump does not take pay and he did not take a Holiday vacation. That is called being a person who cares for the victims of politicians. He was not forced to of this and shows it can be done. Democrats may need force to do their job.

After 30 days of shut down, the president has the authority to lay off government workers. This way that can collect unemployment. With 95% of the EPA on leave, this may be a good time to lay off the EPA and restructure it. Thank you Democrats and Nancy Pelosi.
 
Green:
Did you bother to read the content to which I linked in the post to which your above remarks are a reply? Members of Congress are in DC 83 days a year, per Rep. Mike Quigley.


....



A pauper has plenty to share about what not to do if one aims to get rich, but he is of no use in learning what to do to get rich.
-- Xelor informing my kids that everyone has something useful to share, but the usefulness of what they have to share varies.​


(edited due to post length restrictions)


My apologies I just skimmed the link on Congressmen sleeping in their offices and missed the 83 day quote. As regards Ms. Pelosi a couple of links I looked at put her net worth at 120M. She's still wealthy as you note even assuming you're lower number is closer to the truth.

When I quoted 900,000 for net worth I was speaking about House members, though I may have used the word "Congressman". House members median net worth is 900K as your article notes. Senators are by and larger wealthier and skew the median for all Congressmen northward. It's unclear whether that net worth includes real property - it should but the article noted that Congressmen don't have include real estate in their net worth calculations (though some do). When I quoted 900K net worth as solid middle class in the metropolitan NY area (and really most large cities) I was including real estate in that figure.

I'm not sure I agree with your contention that accomplishment can be measured by wealth. I will certainly agree that all wealthy are not accomplished but don't know that it's necessarily true that all accomplished people are wealthy. Nor am I sure that I know what accomplishment means in this context or if accomplishment is even the right measure. You seem to use it to mean "successful under the rules of the game of our society." That may be right measure - I honestly don't know and need to think about it more. I will agree that character as you define it is important. So is the ability to learn, to think critically, to synthesize a mass of information and reach a conclusion that is both sensible and comports with our constitution, to be able to convince others of the rightness of that position. Can wealth be a measure of all of that? Again I'm not sure.
 
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