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"Political Correctness" killed the Columbia astronauts

debate_junkie said:
The facts were laid out.. but because their facts that don't support his/her argument.. they're of no value. It's pointless to debate this issue with the Dean of Chemistry. Obviously... he/she knows more than the scientists who've worked on this and many other issues.

He/she will find one portion of a post and latch onto it. No where, and I've asked twice now.. has it been proven that the freon based foam NEVER flaked from the fuel tank. Thought you could skim out of it, didn't ya Miss... ouri? I'm still waiting.. show me proof it's never flaked off. I dare you.

You must be arguing with yourself because I already conceded that improper preparation was the likely cause of the "bubble" that was mentioned earlier and I attributed this to the analogy of properly preparing your auto or house to be repainted. Any half-assed painter will tell you that paint preparation is more important than the actual painting is concerned.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the current foam composition has the structural integrity of the original freon foam preparation because there isn't. And it doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to know this either. Because you never heard of it before, that's why. The "why" is because it wasn't happening. Then some bright eyed politically correct zealots decided that it was more important to change the formulation than to consider it might not be such a hot idea. After all, what's the big deal about the foam anyway? So the committee of chief dunces passed on this recommendation and seven brave astronauts died as a result of their knuckleheaded decision. It's called bureaucratic inertia. It happens all the time in government. And it happens in industry as well when automakers put on tires that blow out, medicine that will kill you, and a myriad of other things that we never hear about because none have the impact that something like this has. The environmental lobby won the round and seven astronauts died. But I guess that's fair in the world of political correctness, isn't it? That's the true bottom line.
 
Missouri Mule said:
You must be arguing with yourself because I already conceded that improper preparation was the likely cause of the "bubble" that was mentioned earlier and I attributed this to the analogy of properly preparing your auto or house to be repainted. Any half-assed painter will tell you that paint preparation is more important than the actual painting is concerned.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the current foam composition has the structural integrity of the original freon foam preparation because there isn't. And it doesn't take a "rocket scientist" to know this either. Because you never heard of it before, that's why. The "why" is because it wasn't happening. Then some bright eyed politically correct zealots decided that it was more important to change the formulation than to consider it might not be such a hot idea. After all, what's the big deal about the foam anyway? So the committee of chief dunces passed on this recommendation and seven brave astronauts died as a result of their knuckleheaded decision. It's called bureaucratic inertia. It happens all the time in government. And it happens in industry as well when automakers put on tires that blow out, medicine that will kill you, and a myriad of other things that we never hear about because none have the impact that something like this has. The environmental lobby won the round and seven astronauts died. But I guess that's fair in the world of political correctness, isn't it? That's the true bottom line.

Still dodging the issue... I want you to show me proof that the FREON-BASED foam NEVER fell off the fuel tank? Are you deaf, dumb, or all of the above? You made the assertion that taking out the freon... caused the Columbia tragedy. Show the source that there was NEVER a problem with the freon based foam flaking off.

Like it is often said on this board... all copyrights protected.. back up your case with facts. Show the source... if you can.
 
Missouri Mule said:
It isn't a matter of blaming "liberals" or "conservatives." It is a matter of blaming the "Idiots" and "gutless cowards" who make these asinine decisions. You don't have anything against blaming "idiots" or "gutless cowards" do you?
You have completely changed your mind? You wrote these choice words in this thread less than 48 hours ago. Are you coming down with amnesia?
Columbia. it was a completely needless loss of life. I hold the left responsible and always will.
The other alleged "design flaw" is not a flaw at all UNTIL the foam that was composed of freon based material was replaced by the liberal inspired and politically correct crowd
It is the politically correct left that deemed it more important that the environment not be despoiled by the dastardly freon component of the original foam that was used.
But just now you write this:
It isn't a matter of blaming "liberals" or "conservatives." It is a matter of blaming the "Idiots" and "gutless cowards" who make these asinine decisions.
The whole point of your argument is that liberals killed the shuttle astronauts but in your last post you've changed your mind?

The entire premise that a political group is to blame is moronic, totally without merit, and just plain dumb.
 
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debate_junkie said:
Still dodging the issue... I want you to show me proof that the FREON-BASED foam NEVER fell off the fuel tank? Are you deaf, dumb, or all of the above? You made the assertion that taking out the freon... caused the Columbia tragedy. Show the source that there was NEVER a problem with the freon based foam flaking off.

Like it is often said on this board... all copyrights protected.. back up your case with facts. Show the source... if you can.

You're the one who is deaf, dumb and blind. I have conceded that the bubble existed because of improper preparation. This is not unlike the various cars and trucks you will see where the paint flakes off. This is not unusual and has nothing whatsoever to do with the integrity of the material.

You're asking me to produce photographs of something that was never photographed like the beginnings of the origins of the universe. Good try, but no cigar.

Your're wrong, like the left and politically left is always wrong. You won't listen to reason. You won't consider the facts. You won't exercise common sense but you always believe you are right. Like I said this argument is like ******* in the wind.
 
26 X World Champs said:
You have completely changed your mind? You wrote these choice words in this thread less than 48 hours ago. Are you coming down with amnesia?

But just now you write this:

The whole point of your argument is that liberals killed the shuttle astronauts but in your last post you've changed your mind?

The entire premise that a political group is to blame is moronic, totally without merit, and just plain dumb.

There is no inconsistency here. The "idiots" and the bureaucrats who capitulated to the left are ultimately to be blamed but it is the ideologically liberal left that have virtually ruined our country with an an abandonment of common sense. We already know they have successfully burned down our western forrests to their environmentalist gods. They won't be satisfied until we are bowing down to Mecca. That may not be their intention but that will the the result; the "law of unintended consequences." They still haven't gotten over the fact that the "wrong side" won the Cold War. They won't be satisfied until western civilization is destroyed. As I say it is not their stated intention but it will be the result of their misguided policies.
 
Missouri Mule said:
Your're wrong, like the left and politically left is always wrong. You won't listen to reason. You won't consider the facts. You won't exercise common sense but you always believe you are right.

Maybe just me, but saying an entire group of people, 1/2 the political spectrum, is always wrong, seems, well, wrong. It goes against common sense. Even though I'm a "liberal" that "hates life", and "kills astronauts" (I'm pretty sure I haven't killed any astronauts lately. Well...there's one button on my remote. I'm not exactly sure what it does...), I don't assume the right is always wrong. There are a lot of people, coming up with a lot of ideas. To assume all these ideas are wrong is sophomoric, and quite frankly stupid.

Both sides come up with many ideas and viewpoints. With that many, inevitably, some are right and some are wrong (assuming these ideas and viewpoints can even be "right" and "wrong").
 
ncallaway said:
Maybe just me, but saying an entire group of people, 1/2 the political spectrum, is always wrong, seems, well, wrong. It goes against common sense. Even though I'm a "liberal" that "hates life", and "kills astronauts" (I'm pretty sure I haven't killed any astronauts lately. Well...there's one button on my remote. I'm not exactly sure what it does...), I don't assume the right is always wrong. There are a lot of people, coming up with a lot of ideas. To assume all these ideas are wrong is sophomoric, and quite frankly stupid.

Both sides come up with many ideas and viewpoints. With that many, inevitably, some are right and some are wrong (assuming these ideas and viewpoints can even be "right" and "wrong").

Just specifying facts...last year Pew research(objective source to both sides)
reported that the general public in America admitted that is was 20% liberal.
Don't equate "all liberals" to meaning "all Democrats"...

please continue....
 
ncallaway said:
Maybe just me, but saying an entire group of people, 1/2 the political spectrum, is always wrong, seems, well, wrong. It goes against common sense. Even though I'm a "liberal" that "hates life", and "kills astronauts" (I'm pretty sure I haven't killed any astronauts lately. Well...there's one button on my remote. I'm not exactly sure what it does...), I don't assume the right is always wrong. There are a lot of people, coming up with a lot of ideas. To assume all these ideas are wrong is sophomoric, and quite frankly stupid.

Both sides come up with many ideas and viewpoints. With that many, inevitably, some are right and some are wrong (assuming these ideas and viewpoints can even be "right" and "wrong").

OK, put on your thinking cap now. When was the last time you ever heard the left come up with an original idea or thought? What common good has come recently from any of their policies? They've infected our society with every imaginable kind of excess. When's the last time you saw a decent movie coming out of Hollyweird? When's the last time that the left ever supported enhancing our military? When's the last time the left ever said "wait a minute, maybe our social welfare giveaways" aren't really helping the poor?" Virtually the entire Democratic party has become the party of "no." They have become a shell of their former greatness when such thinkers and doers like FDR, Truman, Kennedy and Scoop Jackson were their leaders. There was a time when the Republican party was a party without ideas; the party of isolationism; and the country club set. Now the Democratic party is the party of the "limosene liberal" who believe George bush is the real threat to our security. That's insane.

What do we have left today? Well, let me suggest a few names. Jane Fonda, Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky, Ramsey Clark, Ward Churchill, and virtually all of Hollywood. The gullible left, especially the young are beguiled by these pied pipers of negativism and defeat. It is dangerous in the extreme. If the left of today were leading our nation during WWII, we would be speaking German today. Japan's warlords would still be in charge of Japan and committing murder and mayhem throughout southeast Asia. And that's a demonstrable fact. But to hear the left tell it Bush can't do anything right and our country is committing horrible things in the Iraqi prisons and at Gitmo. I guess they never heard of Auschwitz, the "Rape of Nanking" or the Bataan Death March. They have probably heard of Pearl Harbor but many now on the left blame that on the U.S. You see we "provoked" the Japanese into attacking us. They believe it would have been better to have offered up 1,000,000 American dead soldiers on the beaches of Japan rather than using the bomb. That's the "newthink" coming out of many on the left. Blame America First is their motto. And they're getting away with it too.
 
cnredd said:
Just specifying facts...last year Pew research(objective source to both sides)
reported that the general public in America admitted that is was 20% liberal.
Don't equate "all liberals" to meaning "all Democrats"...

please continue....

Oh, I know all liberals doesn't mean "all democrats". I would say I fit under the "liberal" label. I am most certainly not a democrat.

Sorry, I did choose my words badly, though. I just meant the left made up half the political spectrum, whereas the right makes up the other half. Like, were the spectrum a line, one half is left of center, the other half is right of center. I wasn't actually talking about the number of Americans that call themselves "liberal" or "conservative". Sorry for the confusion.

(I didn't know that by the way. Interesting fact. Do you know where you saw that?)

Missouri Mole said:
If the left of today were leading our nation during WWII, we would be speaking German today. Japan's warlords would still be in charge of Japan and committing murder and mayhem throughout southeast Asia. And that's a demonstrable fact. But to hear the left tell it Bush can't do anything right and our country is committing horrible things in the Iraqi prisons and at Gitmo. I guess they never heard of Auschwitz, the "Rape of Nanking" or the Bataan Death March.

Dismissing everything that comes from the left is just close-minded and ignorant.

As to that being a demonstrable fact, please demonstrate. I haven't seen anyone else demonstrate it, and I certainly don't think you can call speculation as to events "facts". I'd like to see your crystal ball, because you obviously have access to things I don't...

I won't go so far as to say we're committing atrocities in Gitmo right now. However, saying that what we're doing in Gitmo is okay as long as it isn't as bad as Auschwitz is just odd. Do you think you cannot commit a crime against humanity if you're not as bad as Auschwitz?

If you really believe the left has nothing to offer, and will never come up with a good idea, I simply can't continue this debate much further. I'm on the left, and you'll just discard my opinion anyway.
 
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Wow. Sorry. The first time I read your name, I read it as "mole" and have been refering to you as "Missouri Mole" ever since. I just noticed it is actually "Missouri Mule". I apologize for the misunderstanding.
 
ncallaway said:
Oh, I know all liberals doesn't mean "all democrats". I would say I fit under the "liberal" label. I am most certainly not a democrat.

Sorry, I did choose my words badly, though. I just meant the left made up half the political spectrum, whereas the right makes up the other half. Like, were the spectrum a line, one half is left of center, the other half is right of center. I wasn't actually talking about the number of Americans that call themselves "liberal" or "conservative". Sorry for the confusion.

(I didn't know that by the way. Interesting fact. Do you know where you saw that?)



Dismissing everything that comes from the left is just close-minded and ignorant.

As to that being a demonstrable fact, please demonstrate. I haven't seen anyone else demonstrate it, and I certainly don't think you can call speculation as to events "facts". I'd like to see your crystal ball, because you obviously have access to things I don't...

I won't go so far as to say we're committing atrocities in Gitmo right now. However, saying that what we're doing in Gitmo is okay as long as it isn't as bad as Auschwitz is just odd. Do you think you cannot commit a crime against humanity if you're not as bad as Auschwitz?

If you really believe the left has nothing to offer, and will never come up with a good idea, I simply can't continue this debate much further. I'm on the left, and you'll just discard my opinion anyway
.

I'll entertain and discuss any idea you can come up with from you or any other idea from the left. I promise not to call you names or be mean to you. Try me. I used to be a liberal myself until the scales fell from my eyes. (BTW, I will be gone the rest of the day so I can't respond until very late tonight or tomorrow.)

BTW, Gitmo is in no way comparable to Auschwitz or the Japanese prison camps. It is absurd on its face and downright insulting to even suggest a comparison.
 
ncallaway said:
Sorry, I did choose my words badly, though. I just meant the left made up half the political spectrum, whereas the right makes up the other half. Like, were the spectrum a line, one half is left of center, the other half is right of center. I wasn't actually talking about the number of Americans that call themselves "liberal" or "conservative". Sorry for the confusion.

(I didn't know that by the way. Interesting fact. Do you know where you saw that?)

You wouldn't be the first to do it, and I'm sure you won't be the last...I wouldn't be surprised if I'd done it myself!...Although I've TRIED not to make that misleading statement since I was looking around and found this...
 

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That's quite an interesting chart. Actually one of the better arguments against a "liberal media" than I've seen in quite some time. My favorite was the bit at the bottom, where they showed it equaled 100%.

Mule: Just for clarification, according to you, is it still the left that is responsible for these deaths? Or political correctness? Or environmentalism? Or all three? Or none of these?

I still believe it was a tragic accident. There is good evidence that there was some flaking before the freon foam, and so there was still some possibility of an accident.

If NASA doesn't come out and say freon based foam will save lives, I just don't think I have the expertise to second-guess them. If NASA were to come out and say: "Freon based foam will save the lives of our astronauts", believe me, I'd be right behind it. But they haven't, and so I have a hard time supporting it.

Oh, I also wasn't saying Gitmo was comparable to Auschwitz. I was merely saying that it doesn't need to be comparable to Auschwitz to be a serious problem.
 
Missouri Mule said:
I argued this for a long time at another web site. I was told I was wrong by the left (who never let facts get in their way.) Well, here are some facts. And now we see that the shuttle program has been stopped again because of the falling foam problem. I'm beginning to believe the left and the terrorists have one thing in common. To kill people, the destroy our civilization and progress, and burn down our forests (through their asinine "no burn" policies.) They are currently succeeding unless real Americans stand on their own two hind legs and take back the reins of power from these mindless nincompoops and fanatics.

Sometimes I think the left should be charged with manslaughter (at a minimum) in the astronaut deaths and needless forrest fires.
==================================
Shuttle Foam Loss Linked to EPA Regs
newsmax.com ^ | Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:27 a.m. EDT

Shortly after the Columbia avoidable catastrophe I was traveling, as I do often, through south Louisiana. For those who don't know the tank is built at the Michoud NASA facilities just east of New Orleans. A mid-level manager called into, out of the blue, the WWL talk show I was listening to. He would not give his name for fear of being fired. He explained in detail exactly the story that you are reporting. It WAS the EPA and they had warned them of the consequences. At the time there was a lot of blame being place on the workers and their skills and this guy was upset about it. He said the freon that escaped during the coating was minimal but the Clinton EPA had clamped down and refused to back away even though they were being told that the alternate would pose these exact problems.

So those of you who think this is new it is not, the workers there warned NASA and EPA exactly what would happen and it did and it continues.
 
ShamMol said:
Can you say design flaw? A better question to ask imo. But another one is why wasn't there a crash before the one that killed those seven if the problem started in 97?

Luck and the fact that tanks are built in advance with 4 or 5 waiting in the wings. So when the EPA forced the change in adhesive there were already tanks built and ready to go.

It just doesn't make sense. Frankly, I think that this has always happened in some degree, but we are just recognizing it.

It makes perfect sense.
 
Missouri Mule said:
Your're wrong, like the left and politically left is always wrong. You won't listen to reason. You won't consider the facts. You won't exercise common sense but you always believe you are right. Like I said this argument is like ******* in the wind.
How weird is that someone would write that:
the left and politically left is always wrong. You won't listen to reason.

You write that and then you write:
but you always believe you are right.
How about you? I read your posts and to me they seem filled with venom against Democrats. You pile us all together, you accuse us of murdering astronauts and you have the balls (or is it the stupidity) to say that Liberal thinking will lead to Islamic rule in the USA! How extremist is that? How can anyone take anyone seriously (= not consider them to be delusional) when they write:
Originally Posted by Missouri Mole
If the left of today were leading our nation during WWII, we would be speaking German today. Japan's warlords would still be in charge of Japan and committing murder and mayhem throughout southeast Asia. And that's a demonstrable fact. But to hear the left tell it Bush can't do anything right and our country is committing horrible things in the Iraqi prisons and at Gitmo. I guess they never heard of Auschwitz, the "Rape of Nanking" or the Bataan Death March.
When I read stuff like that I can only shake my head and thank God that people who think like that are not running our (or any) country. Talk about calling the kettle black! Here's a poster who says Hitler & Hirohito would be ruling the world! What other atrocities are you going to blame on Liberals? How about the war in Iraq? Is that a Liberal undertaking too?

Some smelling salts for you are in order, for surely you must be light headed to write such nonsense.
 
Stinger said:
Shortly after the Columbia avoidable catastrophe I was traveling, as I do often, through south Louisiana. For those who don't know the tank is built at the Michoud NASA facilities just east of New Orleans. A mid-level manager called into, out of the blue, the WWL talk show I was listening to. He would not give his name for fear of being fired. He explained in detail exactly the story that you are reporting. It WAS the EPA and they had warned them of the consequences. At the time there was a lot of blame being place on the workers and their skills and this guy was upset about it. He said the freon that escaped during the coating was minimal but the Clinton EPA had clamped down and refused to back away even though they were being told that the alternate would pose these exact problems.

So those of you who think this is new it is not, the workers there warned NASA and EPA exactly what would happen and it did and it continues.
Today's NY Times has a completely different take on what some of you are stating is the premise and cause of the Columbia tragedy. Here's what The Times said today:
At the dawn of the shuttle program, NASA rules said no foam at all should be allowed to hit the shuttle and possibly damage the fragile heat-resistant tiles that cover its aluminum skin.

But fidelity to those standards was relaxed over time; in fact, foam fell from a PAL ramp in two early missions, including the one in June 1983 on which Sally Ride became the first American woman in space. There may have been many more incidents, but dozens of shuttle missions have been launched in darkness, with no visual record of foam, and the tanks themselves cannot be retrieved from the ocean for analysis.....{snip}

NASA engineers had already seen how fixes can break things. After they made a minor change in the foam application process in the late 1990's to comply with environmental rules, small divots of foam rained off of the tank during ascent. The phenomenon, called popcorning, was caused by trapped bubbles; NASA solved the problem by venting the foam with tiny holes, but it was a reminder, if any was needed, that seemingly small changes could have profound effects.
Source: http://nytimes.com/2005/07/31/scien...f54ae5625aa&hp&ex=1122782400&partner=homepage
 
Just back and I ran across this piece. It only gets better or worse

depending on your political persusasion. Of course the left will never admit fault. Better than the space shuttle program be scrapped in the interest of political correctness. What's the worth of a few astronauts, anyway? Not much, apparently.

Not only the Discovery astronauts but now the Challenger astronauts are the victims of out-of-control political correctness. This can be laid squarely at the feet of the political left and the gutless NASA heads who let political ideology overrule proven engineering. Manslaughter in the First Degree! Read on.
===================================
Earth Worshippers Cause Death in Space: Environmental Dogma Has Led to the Sacrifice of Fourteen Astronauts on the Space Shuttle
by Hannes Hacker (July 11, 2003)

Summary: These accidents are not primarily the fault of careless engineers, nor are they merely the unintended consequences of bureaucrats blindly following federal rules. They are the result of a philosophy that hold human needs--such as the need for a safe shuttle launch or re-entry--as less important than a concern to preserve the purity of nature from the products of industrial civilization, such as CFCs and asbestos insulation.

[www.CapMag.com] Now that a dramatic new test has confirmed that a piece of thermal insulation flaking off of space shuttle Columbia's external tank during launch was the most likely cause of its destruction during reentry, the typical second-guessing in the press has focused on NASA engineers, asking: "What did Mission Control know, and when did they know it?"

Somehow, NASA engineers should have guessed about the damage done to Columbia's thermal tiles and pulled an Apollo 13-style rabbit out of their hat. The implication is that they should have been omniscient and omnipotent.

Having heroes like NASA's mission controllers around to quietly brave the world's criticism certainly serves to divert attention from those who have done the most to contribute to this disaster--and who regard themselves as omniscient and omnipotent enough to command the entire American economy and the lives of its citizens: the environmentalists.

Why did the shuttle's foam insulation flake off? In response to an edict from the EPA, NASA was required to change the design of the thermal insulating foam on the shuttle's external tank. They stopped using Freon, or CFC-11, in order to comply with the 1987 Montreal Protocol, an agreement designed to head off doubtful prognostications of an environmental disaster.

But it was the elimination of the old foam that led to a real disaster for the shuttle program. The maiden flight with the new foam, in 1997, resulted in a ten-fold increase to foam-induced tile damage. The new foam was far more dangerous than the old foam. But NASA--a government organization afraid of antagonizing powerful political interests--did not reject the EPA's demands and thoroughly reverse their fatal decision. Instead, they sought a compromise, applying for a waiver from the EPA that allowed them to use the old foam on some parts of the external tank.

NASA notes that it is impossible to ascertain with certainty whether it was the old or the new foam that caused the recent disaster, and environmentalists will no doubt say this means that we can't pin the disaster on them. But any unnecessary increase in risk in an enterprise so unforgiving of error, is unacceptable. The bottom line is that NASA took a much greater risk in order to comply with EPA demands. Environmentalist junk science trumped sound engineering.

This is not the first time that has happened. The cause of the 1986 Challenger explosion is officially established as hot gases burning through an O-ring joint in one of the solid-rocket boosters. NASA was roundly criticized for its decision to launch in cold weather over the objection of some engineers, but there was a deeper cause that was not as widely reported.


In 1985 NASA had switched to a new putty to seal the O-ring joints. The new putty became brittle at cold temperatures, thus allowing Dr. Richard Feynman to teach NASA a famous lesson. At the congressional hearing investigating the accident, he simply placed some of the O-ring putty in a glass of ice water and crumbled it in his fingers.


NASA had changed the sealant because its original supplier for O-ring putty stopped producing it for fear of anti-asbestos lawsuits.

Had NASA not run out of the original putty, the Challenger disaster would not have happened. Indeed, when the Air Force ran out of the same putty and replaced it with the same brittle substitute, their Titan 34D heavy-lift boosters suffered two sudden launch failures, after a string of successes that had lasted as long as that of the space shuttle.

These accidents are not primarily the fault of careless engineers, nor are they merely the unintended consequences of bureaucrats blindly following federal rules. They are the result of a philosophy that hold human needs--such as the need for a safe shuttle launch or re-entry--as less important than a concern to preserve the purity of nature from the products of industrial civilization, such as CFCs and asbestos insulation.

Had 2000 presidential candidate Al Gore had his way, Columbia's last mission would have carried a spacecraft called Triana into space. Triana was meant to beam continuous images, via the Internet, of a very small Earth as seen from a point between the Earth and the Sun. The idea was to convey the message of how small and fragile the Earth is, and consequently how small man is, compared to the vastness of space.

That's the theory: man is small and should sacrifice for vast nature. The practice? Fourteen dead astronauts.


About the Author: Hannes Hacker, an aerospace engineer and former flight controller at NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston, is a writer for the Ayn Rand Institute in Irvine, Calif. The Institute promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand, author of Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=2942
 
26 X World Champs said:
How weird is that someone would write that:

You write that and then you write:

How about you? I read your posts and to me they seem filled with venom against Democrats. You pile us all together, you accuse us of murdering astronauts and you have the balls (or is it the stupidity) to say that Liberal thinking will lead to Islamic rule in the USA! How extremist is that? How can anyone take anyone seriously (= not consider them to be delusional) when they write:

When I read stuff like that I can only shake my head and thank God that people who think like that are not running our (or any) country. Talk about calling the kettle black! Here's a poster who says Hitler & Hirohito would be ruling the world! What other atrocities are you going to blame on Liberals? How about the war in Iraq? Is that a Liberal undertaking too?

Some smelling salts for you are in order, for surely you must be light headed to write such nonsense.

"If the left of today were leading our nation during WWII, we would be speaking German today. Japan's warlords would still be in charge of Japan and committing murder and mayhem throughout southeast Asia. And that's a demonstrable fact. But to hear the left tell it Bush can't do anything right and our country is committing horrible things in the Iraqi prisons and at Gitmo. I guess they never heard of Auschwitz, the "Rape of Nanking" or the Bataan Death March."


You don't like that? What part of that would you care to dispute? I'd like to hear your response. This should be fun.
 
Missouri Mule said:
"If the left of today were leading our nation during WWII, we would be speaking German today. Japan's warlords would still be in charge of Japan and committing murder and mayhem throughout southeast Asia. And that's a demonstrable fact.
Please demonstrate for all of us.

You know what? Don't bother! Your posts are ridiculous and not worth the bandwidth they occupy. I for one cannot debate someone who condemns people the way you do. Your posts read like they're written by someone with any sense of sanity whatsoever, so "debating" with you is insane.

I will now allow someone else to play with you. My Mom just called me inside for dinner.
 
26 X World Champs said:
Please demonstrate for all of us.

You know what? Don't bother! Your posts are ridiculous and not worth the bandwidth they occupy. I for one cannot debate someone who condemns people the way you do. Your posts read like they're written by someone with any sense of sanity whatsoever, so "debating" with you is insane.

I will now allow someone else to play with you. My Mom just called me inside for dinner.

I'm sorry that I didn't measure up to your high standards. But it is obvious you are unable to debate the facts so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Leftists are past masters at this since they do not possess the facts.
 
Missouri Mule said:
I'm sorry that I didn't measure up to your high standards. But it is obvious you are unable to debate the facts so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Leftists are past masters at this since they do not possess the facts.
It's not a debate when you write hate filled emails condemning every Liberal thinking American. It's just stupidity rearing it's ugly little head.

"Leftists" this, "Leftists" that is pure bullshit. I think you're posts are bullshit. That is debating your creditability or lack thereof. "Leftists" this or whatever is simply a stupid stereotype that you spew out.

Here's a novel idea? Instead of making idiotic generalizations how about being specific, you know, name names and prove your point with links. You always name the same 4 or 5 "leftists" that you have made into the voice of Democratic America.

If I used the same ignorance your posts exhibit I would write stuff like:

All "Rightists" are represented by Sean Hannity, Pat Robertson, John Ashcroft, Jerry Falwell and Tom DeLay....

Those gentlemen do not represent all Conservatives anymore than the gentlemen you call "leftists."

BTW - Ashcroft is my favorite politician. It takes a special guy to lose an election to a dead man!
 
26 X World Champs said:
It's not a debate when you write hate filled emails condemning every Liberal thinking American. It's just stupidity rearing it's ugly little head.

"Leftists" this, "Leftists" that is pure bullshit. I think you're posts are bullshit. That is debating your creditability or lack thereof. "Leftists" this or whatever is simply a stupid stereotype that you spew out.

Here's a novel idea? Instead of making idiotic generalizations how about being specific, you know, name names and prove your point with links. You always name the same 4 or 5 "leftists" that you have made into the voice of Democratic America.

If I used the same ignorance your posts exhibit I would write stuff like:

All "Rightists" are represented by Sean Hannity, Pat Robertson, John Ashcroft, Jerry Falwell and Tom DeLay....

Those gentlemen do not represent all Conservatives anymore than the gentlemen you call "leftists."

BTW - Ashcroft is my favorite politician. It takes a special guy to lose an election to a dead man!

Other than ranting about my distaste for the dishonest liberals who have infected this country with nonsense theories about welfare and the world we live in, why don't you try addressing the facts? I asked you to knock down one specific paragraph above that I highlighted in bold print and you couldn't even do that, instead preferring to attack me.

You know, of course, that this is the typical liberal method of debate. They are like the lawyer who if he has the facts, argues the facts. Since they never have the facts, they argue the law (the ACLU, for example.). Since even then the law is not on their side (unless they stack the courts with activist liberal judges), they pound on the table. When you get tired of ranting and pounding on the table, knock down my argument above (about the Nazis and Japanese warlords.) I'll bet you can't.

Frustrating, isn't it? Always to know that you can't win an argument because your arguments have no factual content. These are indeed tough days for liberals. They can't win elections. They can't get any of their cockimamy ideas passed into law. They can only hope to keep sensible judges off the bench. That is their last bastion of hope to enact their agenda. They're even aborting themselves out of existence. Am I wrong?
 
Missouri Mule said:
Besides an ad hominem attack what exactly did you contribute to this discussion? You progressed directly the "pounding on the table" aspect of lawyering. Why am I not surprised? That's what the left does so well.

Guilty as charged. Fair enough. I certainly did do what you accused me of (and then did yourself).

I'll try not to do that again, just because I hold myself to a better standard than I expect out of most others.

I'm not a lefty. I'm a Republican.
 
Alastor said:
Guilty as charged. Fair enough. I certainly did do what you accused me of (and then did yourself).

I'll try not to do that again, just because I hold myself to a better standard than I expect out of most others.

I'm not a lefty. I'm a Republican.

It's been a long day and I don't even remember what you said. What did you say and what are you pleading guilty to?
 
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