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Police told not to pursue Orlando shooter for ‘15 or 20 minutes--

Patrickt said:
In the last forty years almost everything has become a federal case. When President Kennedy was assassinated it was a state case because there was no federal violation. Now, almost everything is a federal offense.

A dark club, 300 people without guns, one guy with guns, and some people think five cops should have been sent running in to start shooting. If the police went in and 100 people went running outside, how would you make sure the shooter wasn't in the group? When the police are facing thirty people in a dark room and one of the police officers is shot, what should they do?

Remember, nothing is difficult for the person who doesn't have to do it.
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I do understand what you're saying, but there are many shootings here in Florida that are not picked up by the feds. It is probably safe to say that MOST shootings in this state are not picked up by the feds. I do understand your point, but it does not really explain how this happened, the feds picking it up as it happened.
 
Thoreau72 said:
I do understand what you're saying, but there are many shootings here in Florida that are not picked up by the feds. It is probably safe to say that MOST shootings in this state are not picked up by the feds. I do understand your point, but it does not really explain how this happened, the feds picking it up as it happened.
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The feds have the option. If there is no violation of a federal law they do not have the option.
Years ago, law enforcement was fragmented by geographical jurisdiction and by statute. For example, a city police officer in our city had jurisdiction outside the city only if the sheriff deputized him, which they usually did, but outside of the county had no more authority anywhere in the country than does any other citizen.

And, by statute. We had city ordinances which only applied to the city, county ordinances, state statutes that applied to the state, and federal laws. For example, any theft of mail was a federal offense. Any crime committed on federal property was a federal offense. Auto theft was a state crime unless it involved interstate transportation and if it did the feds had an option to take the case.

That system was admittedly inefficient and limited police power. I thought that all things considered that was a good idea. But there are those who think all law enforcement should be federal and are working towards that goal.
 
Patrickt said:
The feds have the option. If there is no violation of a federal law they do not have the option.
Years ago, law enforcement was fragmented by geographical jurisdiction and by statute. For example, a city police officer in our city had jurisdiction outside the city only if the sheriff deputized him, which they usually did, but outside of the county had no more authority anywhere in the country than does any other citizen.

And, by statute. We had city ordinances which only applied to the city, county ordinances, state statutes that applied to the state, and federal laws. For example, any theft of mail was a federal offense. Any crime committed on federal property was a federal offense. Auto theft was a state crime unless it involved interstate transportation and if it did the feds had an option to take the case.

That system was admittedly inefficient and limited police power. I thought that all things considered that was a good idea. But there are those who think all law enforcement should be federal and are working towards that goal.
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Yes, I understand all that, and I understand that in furtherance of the War On Drugs the feds pick up the lucrative asset forfeiture cases while leaving the bones to the state authorities. Yes, I get all that.

What advantage is gained by the feds taking up a state case of mass murder with no crossing of state lines issues?
 
roughdraft274 said:
They didn't just stand there and let people die. He went in to the bathroom and the gunfire stopped. There's no reason to rush the door if he isn't hurting anybody at that point, so they waiting on swat.
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It was probably the right call then. Thanks for the info. :)
 
Thoreau72 said:
Yes, I understand all that, and I understand that in furtherance of the War On Drugs the feds pick up the lucrative asset forfeiture cases while leaving the bones to the state authorities. Yes, I get all that.

What advantage is gained by the feds taking up a state case of mass murder with no crossing of state lines issues?
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Power. Publicity.
 
MickeyW said:
From the text posted....

"we kept hearing people scream and shots fired.”
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Cornwell and the other officers followed the sounds of screams and echoing gunfire to the bathroom area where they presumed the gunman was now holed up. He said they aimed their assault rifles toward that area as the sounds of gunfire stopped. He said that they then followed orders to hold their position for what he described as “15 or 20 minutes — could’ve been longer” until the SWAT team arrived.
 
mak2 said:
Cornwell and the other officers followed the sounds of screams and echoing gunfire to the bathroom area where they presumed the gunman was now holed up. He said they aimed their assault rifles toward that area as the sounds of gunfire stopped. He said that they then followed orders to hold their position for what he described as “15 or 20 minutes — could’ve been longer” until the SWAT team arrived.
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And?...........
 
This is why you should never count on the police for your protection.
 
Patrickt said:
In the last forty years almost everything has become a federal case. When President Kennedy was assassinated it was a state case because there was no federal violation. Now, almost everything is a federal offense.

A dark club, 300 people without guns, one guy with guns, and some people think five cops should have been sent running in to start shooting. If the police went in and 100 people went running outside, how would you make sure the shooter wasn't in the group? When the police are facing thirty people in a dark room and one of the police officers is shot, what should they do?

Remember, nothing is difficult for the person who doesn't have to do it.
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Exactly!
 
roughdraft274 said:
They didn't just stand there and let people die. He went in to the bathroom and the gunfire stopped. There's no reason to rush the door if he isn't hurting anybody at that point, so they waiting on swat.
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Doesn't mean that one or more perps(they had no idea how many there were at that point), weren't slitting throats.

Slicing and guttural noises are hard to hear through doors and background noise.
 
MickeyW said:
Doesn't mean that one or more perps(they had no idea how many there were at that point), weren't slitting throats.

Slicing and guttural noises are hard to hear through doors and background noise.
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For some reason I trust the cops judgement much more than that of an internet crusaders. There was no good reason to think that the perp or perps were slicing throats when it was obvious that he/they came guns a blazing. There was no reason for the cops to bust through the door at that point.
 
MickeyW said:
That I got....I guess I didn't understand why the other poster is confused....
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Because your post and your follow up posts make it seem as though the cops were just chilling for 15 to 20 minutes while listening to screams and gunshots. That's not the case. They entered and followed the gunshots and only stopped when they had the gunman cornered with no obvious signs of danger apparent. He's confused because the articles title is incredibly stupid and misleading. And when he asks you gave him a very short quote from when they arrived on scene, not from when they were pausing for 15-20 minutes.
 
Thoreau72 said:
The longer this goes the more suspicious the story becomes.

I am curious as to how and why this murder became a federal case instead of a state case?
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Political grand standing to attack the NRA, downplay the FBI **** up, and an attempt political points against the republicans. Duh?
 
Oh great. A bunch of forum yahoo's like me telling us what the cops coulda, woulda, shoulda done. Like the cops don't know more about these matters more than they do.

I'm impressed. :coffeepap

Armchair quarterbacks. Gotta love 'em! :stooges
 
roughdraft274 said:
For some reason I trust the cops judgement much more than that of an internet crusaders. There was no good reason to think that the perp or perps were slicing throats when it was obvious that he/they came guns a blazing. There was no reason for the cops to bust through the door at that point.
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Let me start by saying I am not stating that cops should not have waited as I wasn't there and don't have all the info. That said there is at least one big reason not to wait. That being that people bleed quite a bit after being shot and that one thing that the last decade plus of war has thought the military is that immediately treating massive blood loss saves a ton of lives. It's why everyone in my company has 3 tourniquets as well as there first aid kit on there kit at all times. Training or deployed. Based on my past experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan I would be willing to put money on the fact that some of the folks who died would not have had they received treatment much sooner.
All in all though I don't have enough info to make the call one way or the other just putting that out there. I know that sometimes making the right decision means people die but it may save more lives in the long run.
 
mak2 said:
Yea, I must have missed it.
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That was it. I was trying to understand the timeline. It sounds as if the police pursued the shooter until the shooting stopped. Then they treated it like a hostage situation, which sounds reasonable.
 
Tigerace117 said:
How many people could have died if the police officers had tried to pull a Rambo and engage the guy with their sidearms?
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The biggest Columbine learn for law enforcement was that waiting costs lives - they waited, and more lives were lost.

The first on the scene need to address the threat as quickly as possible, or more lives will be lost.

This is why patrol officers now carry rifles instead of shotguns, and are trained accordingly.

Your observations are grossly incorrect - cops are not hall monitors.
 
SMTA said:
The biggest Columbine learn for law enforcement was that waiting costs lives - they waited, and more lives were lost.

The first on the scene need to address the threat as quickly as possible, or more lives will be lost.

This is why patrol officers now carry rifles instead of shotguns, and are trained accordingly.

Your observations are grossly incorrect - cops are not hall monitors.
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Correct. But some departments still have a hold policy for one officer. They require a minimum number for active shooters. I think that confusion didn't not help, and this is such a rare event that it makes it hard to train for.

I took a seminar on this not to long ago and that was the biggest lesson and they still haven't figured it out yet.
 
SMTA said:
The biggest Columbine learn for law enforcement was that waiting costs lives - they waited, and more lives were lost.

The first on the scene need to address the threat as quickly as possible, or more lives will be lost.

This is why patrol officers now carry rifles instead of shotguns, and are trained accordingly.

Your observations are grossly incorrect - cops are not hall monitors.
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ASFAIK, the officers were equipped with handguns.

Charging head long against an waiting opponent with superior firepower wouldn't have ended well for anybody--- except the shooter, of course.
 
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