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Police reform is not activists' job. It's the police's job. (1 Viewer)

World Champs

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I think if this country is to survive America's 250th anniversary of it's Independence in 2026, there needs to be police reform.

Black people aren't the only ones calling for it anymore. Young white people, the rising youth are. The people I have shown you that has caused me to be controversial around here have made it perfectly clear.

Police officers are not seen as peace officers anymore. They are seen as sworn enemies of the people. Black people don't have to tell you this.

There needs to be police reform or else I think America's finished.

First step in my opinion would be to abolish police unions. They're too corrupt.

Any thoughts?
 
You forgot to mention what's-his-name.
 
You forgot to mention what's-his-name.
Luce:

??? Too cryptic for me I'm afraid.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
Luce:

??? Too cryptic for me I'm afraid.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
Almost every thread he makes is about some rapper nobody's ever heard of.

 
I think if this country is to survive America's 250th anniversary of it's Independence in 2026, there needs to be police reform.

Black people aren't the only ones calling for it anymore. Young white people, the rising youth are. The people I have shown you that has caused me to be controversial around here have made it perfectly clear.

Police officers are not seen as peace officers anymore. They are seen as sworn enemies of the people. Black people don't have to tell you this.

There needs to be police reform or else I think America's finished.

First step in my opinion would be to abolish police unions. They're too corrupt.

Any thoughts?
Police unions are a primary obstacle to police reform BY the police.

No doubt about it.

And that's primarily because they are controlled by old, retired, white cops who come from a different era.

I disagree with part of your premise, though. Police reform is definitely needed, but it will take both activism and union reform to achieve it. And I think that process will require federal legislation.
 
I think if this country is to survive America's 250th anniversary of it's Independence in 2026, there needs to be police reform.

Black people aren't the only ones calling for it anymore. Young white people, the rising youth are. The people I have shown you that has caused me to be controversial around here have made it perfectly clear.

Police officers are not seen as peace officers anymore. They are seen as sworn enemies of the people. Black people don't have to tell you this.

There needs to be police reform or else I think America's finished.

First step in my opinion would be to abolish police unions. They're too corrupt.

Any thoughts?
If the police were capable of self-reform we would not be in the place that we are today. Meaningful reform must come from the outside because they cannot and refuse to clean up themselves.
 
Police unions are a primary obstacle to police reform BY the police.

No doubt about it.

And that's primarily because they are controlled by old, retired, white cops who come from a different era.

I disagree with part of your premise, though. Police reform is definitely needed, but it will take both activism and union reform to achieve it. And I think that process will require federal legislation.
When will they retire and go away? It's not the 1950s and 1960s anymore.

This country cannot take more riots. It's tiring.

I think it needs to be done at the local level. What can Biden really do?
 
I think if this country is to survive America's 250th anniversary of it's Independence in 2026, there needs to be police reform.

Black people aren't the only ones calling for it anymore. Young white people, the rising youth are. The people I have shown you that has caused me to be controversial around here have made it perfectly clear.

Police officers are not seen as peace officers anymore. They are seen as sworn enemies of the people. Black people don't have to tell you this.

There needs to be police reform or else I think America's finished.

First step in my opinion would be to abolish police unions. They're too corrupt.

Any thoughts?

That’s a good first step, but the demorats will never agree to it - they are pro-worker and, most of all, anti-management. Even in situations where they are the management (e.g. big blue cities).
 
World Champs:

To an extent I think some police forces need reform. Points needing reform in my opinion are:

Defining and Redifining the Mandate of What Police are Expected to do to constrain their civic leaders from abusing them professionally.

Reforming the Recruiting and Selection of Potential Police Candidates.

Reforming the Training and Education of Police.

Reforming the Tasking of Police and Procedural Reform related to Policing.

Changing Police Culture and the Cultural Alienation of Some Police from the Public Which they Serve.

Demilitarisation of all local and state Law Enforcement Agencies.

Instituting Effective Gun Control measures for Possession and Registration for Gun Ownership in High Density Population Centres.

More Emphasis on Community Policing and Community Outreach to build more cooperative and less antagonistic bonds between the police and the policed..

Return Policing to a Local Focus by Requiring New Officers to Live in the Communities which they Police for a period of several years.

Responsible and Apolitical Civilian Oversight.

And yes, in some cases the suspension of obstructionist police associations or unions while reforms are under way, but not the whole sale or permanent banning of these valuable associations/unions.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
Why would we trust the police to reform themselves? Should be the job of people with a criminal justice degree.
 
When will they retire and go away? It's not the 1950s and 1960s anymore.

This country cannot take more riots. It's tiring.

I think it needs to be done at the local level. What can Biden really do?
Biden is POTUS.

The only way to force "local change" needed....in every local PD across the country....is via FEDERAL legislation (and enforcement).
 
I think if this country is to survive America's 250th anniversary of it's Independence in 2026, there needs to be police reform.

Black people aren't the only ones calling for it anymore. Young white people, the rising youth are. The people I have shown you that has caused me to be controversial around here have made it perfectly clear.

Police officers are not seen as peace officers anymore. They are seen as sworn enemies of the people. Black people don't have to tell you this.

There needs to be police reform or else I think America's finished.

First step in my opinion would be to abolish police unions. They're too corrupt.

Any thoughts?
Too broad a statement on the Unions. What is the unions job? To protect their members. Using the full extent of laws supporting LEO's is not corruption.

My first move would be to create a national database of LEO's to stop the crappy ones from just moving to a new department.
 
Too broad a statement on the Unions. What is the unions job? To protect their members. Using the full extent of laws supporting LEO's is not corruption.

My first move would be to create a national database of LEO's to stop the crappy ones from just moving to a new department.

That (bolded above) is a huge problem, resulting in anything short of a criminal charge being treated as a union personnel matter to be settled internally with possible arbitration.
 
That (bolded above) is a huge problem, resulting in anything short of a criminal charge being treated as a union personnel matter to be settled internally with possible arbitration.
Only because the collective bargaining process resulted in those powers being given to the unions. It takes two sides to make a deal. Local governments have been bending over for police departments for far too long imo.
 
Only because the collective bargaining process resulted in those powers being given to the unions. It takes two sides to make a deal. Local governments have been bending over for police departments for far too long imo.

Exactly, but “departments” should be replaced with “unions”. Management is also part of any police depeartment.
 
Too broad a statement on the Unions. What is the unions job? To protect their members. Using the full extent of laws supporting LEO's is not corruption.

My first move would be to create a national database of LEO's to stop the crappy ones from just moving to a new department.
Agree in principle.

But IMO, I think the only way to accomplish your/my goals is to decertify many/most police unions and create new ones that are not run (top to bottom) by the old bosses who are the reason why bad caps go unpunished (literally close to 100% of the time), and why racist policies and practices remain in place today.

Can't fix the issue of police misconduct without new police leadership, imo.

The reality is racism is ingrained in most police departments. And racist cops are not as rare as people might prefer to believe. Majority? No. But not a small minority, either.

I've lived it.
 
LEOs don't get paid enough now. Without the union, that would only get worse.

Reform can only come from within. Higher salaries would hopefully bring in a higher class of officers.
.
 
Agree in principle.

But IMO, I think the only way to accomplish your/my goals is to decertify many/most police unions and create new ones that are not run (top to bottom) by the old bosses who are the reason why bad caps go unpunished (literally close to 100% of the time), and why racist policies and practices remain in place today.

Can't fix the issue of police misconduct without new police leadership, imo.

The reality is racism is ingrained in most police departments. And racist cops are not as rare as people might prefer to believe. Majority? No. But not a small minority, either.

I've lived it.
Truth. But I'm not willing to throw out collective bargaining for a one time effort (no matter how worthwhile that effort is).
 
Truth. But I'm not willing to throw out collective bargaining for a one time effort (no matter how worthwhile that effort is).
I get that.

Perhaps the solution would be federal legislation that prohibits the recertification of existing unions at the completion of all existing agreements (or 10 years, whichever comes first).

Just an idea.
 
LEOs don't get paid enough now. Without the union, that would only get worse.
I disagree, here.

I'm not against anyone maximizing their personal income. But the reality is that most urban/suburban cops can almost double there take home with side jobs, many of which are "off the books"/cash only endeavors.

That said, I'm all for paying cops as much as they can get in the collective bargaining process. They already get paid more than almost every other civil servant, because of their collective bargaining power.


Reform can only come from within.
I must disagree. If this was true, it would happened by now.

I'll put it this way:

"Self-regulation stands in relation to regulation the way self-importance stands in relation to importance."
-Willem Buiter (Economist)

In other words, if there is one lesson/truism that EVERY successful capitalist economy has learned over time....it's this: Self-regulation = No Regulation.

And if there is any better example of that (i.e. "self-regulation = no regulation") today than police unions, I can't think of one. [Actually, I can...politicians and judges....but that's an aside]

As for police unions...heck, they don't even weed out their own bad cops, or prevent fired corrupt cops from just moving on to the next town and being rehired. If "from within" were even remotely plausible, police unions would have agreed to create and enforce a national data base for police misconduct to keep bad cops off the streets.

Calls for police reform are as old as any man or woman on this board. I do not believe there will ever be meaningful police reform, as long as current unions continue to run the show.


Higher salaries would hopefully bring in a higher class of officers.
Again, I'm not against higher salaries, per se. But I think higher EDUCATIONAL standards are the only way to attract the "higher class of officers" you're talking about.

Let's be honest. I know a LOT of police officers. A lot. And most of them are former athletes (like me) whose careers ended the next level....and who (unlike me) gravitated to policing because it's the only job that where they can be "BMOC" again. That describes about 75% of all cops today. In times past, cops were among the most educated people in society because they had to have a high school diploma. And that's still the minimum criteria today in most places. But in the 21st century, a high school diploma (or a 2 year degree) is simply not nearly enough (in terms of education, social exposure/experience, etc.) to grant someone the authority to decide who lives and who dies every day on the streets of our cities.
 
LEOs don't get paid enough now. Without the union, that would only get worse.

Reform can only come from within. Higher salaries would hopefully bring in a higher class of officers.
.
Full disclosure: In the many years that I have been a cop, I have never once met anyone who did it for the salary alone.

A rookie right out of the academy makes $54K/year, and your uniform upkeep (for patrolmen) and suits (for detectives) are on you (well, there's a stipend, but it's a joke). Nobody is getting rich on that.
 
Also, I support this idea of reforming ourselves.

We'll get right on that.
 
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

vilis ut 'quis'

(Who watches the watchmen? **** you, that's who.)
 
I think if this country is to survive America's 250th anniversary of it's Independence in 2026, there needs to be police reform.

Black people aren't the only ones calling for it anymore. Young white people, the rising youth are. The people I have shown you that has caused me to be controversial around here have made it perfectly clear.

Police officers are not seen as peace officers anymore. They are seen as sworn enemies of the people. Black people don't have to tell you this.

There needs to be police reform or else I think America's finished.

First step in my opinion would be to abolish police unions. They're too corrupt.

Any thoughts?
99% of the police officer's are good decent people trying to do an impossible job today.
The other 1 % need to be dealt with and that should be the responsibility of your local government.
Your mayor, city council, Police chief and local district attorney. When they don't do their jobs bad officers
are able to stay on the force. Voters need to hold the managers responsible at the ballot box.
 

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