Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

Jack Hays · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Glen Contrarian said:
Yes, the SA is quite clear indeed...and the obvious context of the first clause - the preparatory clause which sets the context of the entirety of the Amendment, particularly in view of the political issues and debates of the time over whether we should have an army at all or instead simply rely upon militias - is flatly ignored by the modern gun-rights lobby.

I really don't want to debate it - not because I can't prove my point to my satisfaction, but because every such debate I've seen devolves into what I can only liken to a religious debate over Biblical texts wherein with rhetorical tap-dancing, one side will obfuscate or flatly ignore the obvious text and the context thereof. Why? Because that side absolutely must at all costs protect its beliefs, its dogma.

And so it is with the SA - to modern gun-rights enthusiasts, the obvious context of the preparatory clause and the politics of the time in which it was written must be ignored, or at a minimum, twisted in order to protect their beliefs, their dogma. It's a religious debate in form, if not in function.

And that's why I really do try to stay out of SA debates - they're a waste of time and effort.

Fair enough. Although in my case the fact of the SA's political role as an impediment to change is more important than any theological consideration. One historical point to consider: since 18th century militia members often provided their own weapons, the first clause adds weight to the second rather than limiting it.

Kreton · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Threegoofs said:
Do I need to type slower?

You can't propose solutions if you can't recognize the problem.

You aren't proposing any solutions, does that mean you just recognize the problem?

Kreton · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

TurtleDude said:
I am well armed, I take measures against being a victim. what exactly does that comment have to do with this thread? Have you come up with any suggested changes in the law that would have prevented this massacre?

Good luck getting him to answer that. I have tried and tried and tried.

Threegoofs · Jun 19, 2015

Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Kreton said:
You aren't proposing any solutions, does that mean you just recognize the problem?

Nope.

But why propose solutions to people who don't see a problem?

It's like outlining a treatment course of chemotherapy with someone who refuses to accept they have cancer.

Kreton · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Threegoofs said:
Nope.

But why propose solutions to people who don't see a problem?

It's like outlining a treatment course of chemotherapy with someone who refuses to accept they have cancer.

You are spending a lot of time avoiding the question. And I am asking to better understand your position. Is that not what we should be doing here. You keep posting that we need gun control and quoting the onion. What laws do you believe would have an impact and why?

tres borrachos · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

bubbabgone said:
The kid appears to be a full-of-hate sociopathic loser.
But I'll tell you something, I feel seriously humbled by the reaction of those people down there who were personally affected.
I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feel the way they say they do.

I saw clips of the 19 year old son of one of the victims, Chris Singleton. He was speaking with his baseball team standing behind him. In addition to be amazingly articulate for a young person, he stressed how he forgave the shooter. He spoke about his mother, and how she loved to pray for him and his sister. If you have a chance, watch it. Tears came to my eyes.

Chris Singleton Delivers Inspiring Speech After Losing His Mom in Charleston Church Shooting | E! Online

Here is a young man who was personally impacted by this. He lost his mother in the most horrific way. Yet unlike the internet keyboard warriors, he didn't blame Fox News and the GOP. He didn't call for people to "mobilize". He didn't scream and rant and point fingers at the gun manufacturers. He spoke of love and forgiveness.

Many people, including many on this board, should shut their mouths and close their fingers, and let someone who this tragedy really impacted speak. This is the way this should be. This young man is a damn inspiration.

Threegoofs · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Kreton said:
You are spending a lot of time avoiding the question. And I am asking to better understand your position. Is that not what we should be doing here. You keep posting that we need gun control and quoting the onion. What laws do you believe would have an impact and why?

No. You are begging for solutions so you can immediately dismiss them because you clearly can't see a problem.

TurtleDude · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Unaffiliated said:
It's simply the basic civilizational principle of the thing.

You don't need a handgun. Certainly the average Republican who advocates that they need guns who lives in an all-white rural area or suburban area certainly doesn't need a handgun.

You don't need an automatic-semi weapon. There is zero need for that.

Hunting rifles are the only logical thing that makes sense. No other legal gun makes any logical sense whatsoever from a civilizational point of measure.

you really are in no position to tell anyone else what they need. need has nothing to do with constitutional rights. we need firearms to protect our rights BTW

its a basic civilization sort of thing. armed men are citizens, disarmed people are subjects or often victims.

Threegoofs · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

tres borrachos said:
I saw clips of the 19 year old son of one of the victims, Chris Singleton. He was speaking with his baseball team standing behind him. In addition to be amazingly articulate for a young person, he stressed how he forgave the shooter. He spoke about his mother, and how she loved to pray for him and his sister. If you have a chance, watch it. Tears came to my eyes.

Chris Singleton Delivers Inspiring Speech After Losing His Mom in Charleston Church Shooting | E! Online

Here is a young man who was personally impacted by this. He lost his mother in the most horrific way. Yet unlike the internet keyboard warriors, he didn't blame Fox News and the GOP. He didn't call for people to "mobilize". He didn't scream and rant and point fingers at the gun manufacturers. He spoke of love and forgiveness.

Many people, including many on this board, should shut their mouths and close their fingers, and let someone who this tragedy really impacted speak. This is the way this should be. This young man is a damn inspiration.

See?

No problem!

Just love everyone and forgive them, and wait till it happens again.

TurtleDude · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Threegoofs said:
No. You are begging for solutions so you can immediately dismiss them because you clearly can't see a problem.

there are no problems that can be solved by left-wingers attacking gun owners because they don't like the way many of us vote

when one's motivations are not honestly stated, a real discussion cannot take place

Kreton · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Threegoofs said:
No. You are begging for solutions so you can immediately dismiss them because you clearly can't see a problem.

So then you have no faith in your super secret solution? If I disagree I'll explain why.

Kreton · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Threegoofs said:
See?

No problem!

Just love everyone and forgive them, and wait till it happens again.

This kids mother was murdered by a psychopath. He calls for peace, and you interpret that as him saying no problem? Seriously who are you to be sitting here telling this kid how to feel or react?

Anthony60 · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

poweRob said:
Awesome. It's all Obama's fault. You have dismissed yourself outright in a most predictable yet accidentally funny style. Congrats!

The usual misinterpretation to fit your needs, not unexpected.

How about these words from Obama...

"The fact that this took place in a black church also raises questions about a dark part of our history,"

WTF is this jerk talking about? What questions? What is this moron trying to say, so inarticulately? He is always ready, ever prepared, to put down this country and it's people, even though it was an act by a single individual.

Boy, did we get the short end of the stick, as a country, when he stepped into office.

Somerville · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Anthony60 said:
The usual misinterpretation to fit your needs, not unexpected.

How about these words from Obama...

"The fact that this took place in a black church also raises questions about a dark part of our history,"

WTF is this jerk talking about? What questions? What is this moron trying to say, so inarticulately? He is always ready, ever prepared, to put down this country and it's people, even though it was an act by a single individual.

Boy, did we get the short end of the stick, as a country, when he stepped into office.

Ignoring, or refusing to acknowledge, the history of this nation seems to be far too common. Ignorance of the past does not help a society to advance.

For those questioning the shooter's religion

Roof, who reportedly sat in a Bible study at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church for almost an hour and argued with congregants about Scripture before pulling out his gun, was himself a member of a Lutheran church in Columbia, the church's pastor confirmed Friday.

"He was on the roll of our congregation," Rev. Tony Metze of St. Paul's Lutheran Church, told The Huffington Post. Metze is also the pastor to Roof's family, and said he has been providing them with "Christian care" since the shooting. The pastor did not respond to questions on how often Roof had attended the church or if had been there recently. He referred HuffPost to the South Carolina Lutheran synod bishop, who did not immediately respond to request for comment.

Having read comments here on DebatePolitics from some of those who call themselves Christian, I must wonder if Roof's arguments over Scripture with those he murdered did little more than confirm his bias that those he shot weren't 'real' Christians.

Gathomas88 · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Glen Contrarian said:
Y'know, your second paragraph is a great example of false equivalency. To be sure, your opinion is not much different from that of most whites in the South of my youth (including myself at the time), that it was "The War of Northern Aggression", that it was never about slavery, but about economics. But since then I've learned a few things. Yes, the Union was not perfect, but when it came to morality, yes sir, the Union most certainly DID have the moral high ground from the very beginning.

What's the proof? Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with Mississippi's Articles of Secession:

snip...

No one is denying that the Confederacy's cause was ultimately wrong. That is why they lost.

However, acting like this means that the C.S.A. was some unmitigated evil, which all Southerners and White Americans must vehemently deny and hold their heads in shame when acknowledging, is taking things a step too far.

The simple fact of the matter is that the root causes of the American Civil War were always more political and economic than they were ever racial or humanitarian. Pretending like the Union was some bastion of egalitarianism and racial compassion, where the C.S.A. was an inhuman charnel house, is simply bunk as such. The reality of the situation was far more complicated than that.

Most Northerners couldn't have cared less about slavery. They simply wanted to preserve the Union intact. Likewise, even Lincoln, the "Great Emancipator," ultimately didn't have any form of "multiculturalism" in mind when he (almost unilaterally, and with great controversy) moved to free the slaves. His idea was actually to ship them all back to Africa at the first available opportunity.

At the end of the day, the legacy of the Confederacy does no more to foster hate or violence than any other American institution. A handful of idiots have simply co-opted it for that purpose, as such fringe political minorities are wont to do with any number of (ultimately arbitrary) national, historical, and ethnic symbols.

nota bene · Jun 19, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Unaffiliated said:
It's simply the basic civilizational principle of the thing.

You don't need a handgun. Certainly the average Republican who advocates that they need guns who lives in an all-white rural area or suburban area certainly doesn't need a handgun.

You don't need an automatic-semi weapon. There is zero need for that.

Hunting rifles are the only logical thing that makes sense. No other legal gun makes any logical sense whatsoever from a civilizational point of measure.

What I don't need is somebody telling me what I need or don't need.

And as for gun ownership, that I want a gun is all the rationale I need.

TurtleDude · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

nota bene said:
What I don't need is somebody telling me what I need or don't need.

And as for gun ownership, that I want a gun is all the rationale I need.

gun banners haven't figured out that telling us we don't need weapons is exactly why we do:mrgreen:

tuhaybey · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

nota bene said:
What I don't need is somebody telling me what I need or don't need.

And as for gun ownership, that I want a gun is all the rationale I need.

That rationale makes sense if you're talking about a decision that only affects you. If the decision only affects the person making it, IMO, it is only that person's business. But, if a decision has consequences for others, then society starts to have a more legitimate role to play there. Guns obviously affect others in the most dramatic way possible, so that seems to me as something society has a legitimate interest in regulating. If my neighbor gets a gun, that puts my life at risk, the lives of my family and friends, my property, etc. So, I think I should have some say in whether or not they get a gun, how they store it, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that I think we should have a really heavy-handed gun policy. But I do disagree with the perspective that only your interests are relevant in the question. The interests of everybody affected by a decision have at least some relevance.

nota bene · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

tuhaybey said:
That rationale makes sense if you're talking about a decision that only affects you. If the decision only affects the person making it, IMO, it is only that person's business. But, if a decision has consequences for others, then society starts to have a more legitimate role to play there. Guns obviously affect others in the most dramatic way possible, so that seems to me as something society has a legitimate interest in regulating. If my neighbor gets a gun, that puts my life at risk, the lives of my family and friends, my property, etc. So, I think I should have some say in whether or not they get a gun, how they store it, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that I think we should have a really heavy-handed gun policy. But I do disagree with the perspective that only your interests are relevant in the question. The interests of everybody affected by a decision have at least some relevance.

My decision to own a gun affects only me and those who might find themselves at the wrong end of it.

Threegoofs · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

TurtleDude said:
there are no problems that can be solved by left-wingers attacking gun owners because they don't like the way many of us vote

when one's motivations are not honestly stated, a real discussion cannot take place

LOL, apparently, there isn't problem because you don't like any of the solutions!

TurtleDude · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

Threegoofs said:
LOL, apparently, there isn't problem because you don't like any of the solutions!

you haven't proffered any rational solutions. I tire of "solutions" that are designed to harass conservatives and pretend to stop criminals

tuhaybey · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

nota bene said:
My decision to own a gun affects only me and those who might find themselves at the wrong end of it.

No, that's not true at all. You might leave your gun unlocked and out when you run to the store and some kid could break in and end up shooting himself with it. You might end up shooting a neighbor kid who is sneaking into your yard to get a ball he kicked over the fence. You might be shooting targets and a stray bullet goes into somebody's house. You might get drunk one night and end up shooting a dog in your confusion. If you live in a city, you might fire the gun in totally legitimate self defense and the bullet might smash through a neighbor's bedroom window and kill them in their sleep. You might pull a gun out when a burglar enters your house and end up turning a burglary into a shootout that could create all kinds of danger for the people around you. You could even flip out one day and start killing people.

Or, of course, the opposite could happen. You could save a neighbor's life by warding somebody off who was going to do them harm. You could use your gun to scare a bear away that otherwise would have hurt a kid. Etc.

There are a million ways you having a gun could dramatically affect the lives of your neighbors. Some positive, some negative. The balance between the positive and negative varies dramatically depending on what kind of person you are, your attitude towards guns, how densely populated the area is, etc. No doubt, the gun is more likely to affect you than your neighbor, but it affect's your neighbor to an extent as well, so to me, that meets the criteria for something society has a legitimate say in.

nota bene · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

tuhaybey said:
No, that's not true at all. You might leave your gun unlocked and out when you run to the store and some kid could break in and end up shooting himself with it. You might end up shooting a neighbor kid who is sneaking into your yard to get a ball he kicked over the fence. You might be shooting targets and a stray bullet goes into somebody's house. You might get drunk one night and end up shooting a dog in your confusion. If you live in a city, you might fire the gun in totally legitimate self defense and the bullet might smash through a neighbor's bedroom window and kill them in their sleep. You might pull a gun out when a burglar enters your house and end up turning a burglary into a shootout that could create all kinds of danger for the people around you. You could even flip out one day and start killing people.

Or, of course, the opposite could happen. You could save a neighbor's life by warding somebody off who was going to do them harm. You could use your gun to scare a bear away that otherwise would have hurt a kid. Etc.

There are a million ways you having a gun could dramatically affect the lives of your neighbors. Some positive, some negative. The balance between the positive and negative varies dramatically depending on what kind of person you are, your attitude towards guns, how densely populated the area is, etc. No doubt, the gun is more likely to affect you than your neighbor, but it affect's your neighbor to an extent as well, so to me, that meets the criteria for something society has a legitimate say in.

Oh, your silly scenarios are just crap. Seriously. I know what kind of person I am, I know where I live, and I know how to handle responsibility.

nota bene · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

TurtleDude said:
you haven't proffered any rational solutions. I tire of "solutions" that are designed to harass conservatives and pretend to stop criminals

And a pretense it is.

TurtleDude · Jun 20, 2015

Re: Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224]

nota bene said:
And a pretense it is.

its not even subtle

Police: Multiple Victims in South Carolina church shooting [W:224:1119]

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