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Pocahontas vs Private Bone Spurs

SonOfDaedalus

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What's worse, Elizabeth Warren exaggerating her Native American ancestry to get a better job or Donald Trump falsifying medical information to dodge the draft?

Isn't lying about a medical condition to avoid military service...illegal?

We can prove that Trump and his father intentionally deceived the military about Trump's bone spurs but can we prove that Elizabeth Warren's claim was intentional deception and not just a mistake regarding family history?
 

Chillfolks

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You are asking what end of the turd smells worse. They both stretched the truth for personal gain.
 

Sampson Simpson

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one is a complete lie

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/politics/elizabeth-warren-native-american-pocahontas/index.html

On Monday, Warren revealed that an analysis of genetic testing confirmed her distant Native American ancestry.

Warren has long said that she is pointing to "family stories" passed down to her through generations as evidence.

In short, the results pretty much agree with what Warren has been arguing for years.

Harvard Law School in the 1990s touted Warren, then a professor in Cambridge, as being "Native American." They singled her out, Warren later acknowledged, because she had listed herself as a minority in an Association of American Law Schools directory. Critics note that she had not done that in her student applications and during her time as a teacher at the University of Texas.
Warren maintains she never furthered her career by using her heritage to gain advantage, and an in-depth investigation by the Boston Globe, published on September 1, found the same.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/na...complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html
 
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Mr Person

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:sigh:



Stop falling for these peoples' games. (, ie, same thing with people repeating the Trumpist lie that Mueller's investigation is for "collusion"). She said her family history said a native American ancestor was several generations back. The DNA test prove this accurate.

Because their smear was disproven, they just shifted gears from claiming she lied to exaggerated.



As for a job, every single person involved in that said they sought her out because they wanted her on the staff for her expertise. She didn't gain some advantage regardless of what one thinks of checking off the box based on a family history.



And finally, people typically act on that kind of family history. They don't assume everyone's been lying to them and only repeat the story once they've proven it to themselves. To the extent people take the oft-unreliable DNA tests now more widely available, they do it out of curiosity, not to make sure they can check off a box.
 

SonOfDaedalus

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You are asking what end of the turd smells worse. They both stretched the truth for personal gain.

There is no evidence that Elizabeth Warren lied. There's evidence that Trump and his father lied to avoid military service.
 

SonOfDaedalus

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:sigh:



Stop falling for these peoples' games. (, ie, same thing with people repeating the Trumpist lie that Mueller's investigation is for "collusion"). She said her family history said a native American ancestor was several generations back. The DNA test prove this accurate.

Because their smear was disproven, they just shifted gears from claiming she lied to exaggerated.



As for a job, every single person involved in that said they sought her out because they wanted her on the staff for her expertise. She didn't gain some advantage regardless of what one thinks of checking off the box based on a family history.



And finally, people typically act on that kind of family history. They don't assume everyone's been lying to them and only repeat the story once they've proven it to themselves. To the extent people take the oft-unreliable DNA tests now more widely available, they do it out of curiosity, not to make sure they can check off a box.

I agree with you but I just don't want to return to arguing about whether Elizabeth Warren lied. My question is how can Trump get away with calling her Pocahontas, criticizing her for an alleged lie when he lied to avoid military service?

Trump lied so he wouldn't have to serve his country at war. That's cowardly.
 

Amelia

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I agree with you but I just don't want to return to arguing about whether Elizabeth Warren lied. My question is how can Trump get away with calling her Pocahontas, criticizing her for an alleged lie when he lied to avoid military service?

Trump lied so he wouldn't have to serve his country at war. That's cowardly.


Exactly. Even if you were to stipulate that Warren lied, and that she did so in a way which helped her professionally, it's totally eclipsed by Cadet Bone Spurs' lies.
 

Crosscheck

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Trump is no different than Rush Limbaugh who got out of the draft with a note from his family physician that he had a "cyst on his butt".

Rush and I are approx. same age. I joined at 18 during the Vietnam Conflict and the military at that time took anyone who could walk and breathe. We had a guy in boot camp with me who was found out to be legally blind during the first week and sent home. He had made it through the entry physical with flying colors. That is why Trump and Rush used their private physicians to give them an out. If he had gone through the all-military physical he would have been gladly accepted.


Or just or, if they wanted to they could have joined and fulfilled that great patriotic duty they possess.
 
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Keridan

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Neither outright lie is acceptable to me from someone who wants to be a leader in our federal government. Both got away with it.
 

Felis Leo

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Well, it depends how much of a blind partisan one is and how much intellectual honesty matters to the one being questioned.

Is lying (or allowing others to lie on your behalf) to get out of being drafted into the meatgrinder of what is arguable the worst, most useless war the United States ever fought a bad thing?

Is lying, or being misleading (or at least least not be intellectually curious) about one's own identity and taking advantage of one's own identity for hiring practices or career advancement a bad thing?

If we can agree that lying or misleading people is bad as a general rule, then both of these are instances of bad acts. If one wishes to twist oneself into pretzels and say "Well, lying to get out of fighting in the Vietnam War is the most venal of sins!," okay. If one wants to say "lying about being a member of an oppressed minority and taking advantage of that identity for personal gain is the most horrific of lies," okay. So long as you apply that even standard across the board, and your answer does not change whether one has an (R) or a (D) next to their name, I may be given to listen to you.

But I see no reason to get worked up over any of this, personally.
 
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Mr Person

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I agree with you but I just don't want to return to arguing about whether Elizabeth Warren lied. My question is how can Trump get away with calling her Pocahontas, criticizing her for an alleged lie when he lied to avoid military service?

Trump lied so he wouldn't have to serve his country at war. That's cowardly.

I wouldn't give quarter to an unprincipled opponent, only the honorable ones...
 

SonOfDaedalus

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Well, it depends how much of a blind partisan one is and how much intellectual honesty matters to the one being questioned.

Is lying (or allowing others to lie on your behalf) to get out of being drafted into the meatgrinder of what is arguable the worst, most useless war the United States ever fought a bad thing?

Is lying, or being misleading (or at least least not be intellectually curious) about one's own identity and taking advantage of one's own identity for hiring practices or career advancement a bad thing?

If we can agree that lying or misleading people is bad as a general rule, then both of these are instances of bad acts. If one wishes to twist oneself into pretzels and say "Well, lying to get out of fighting in the Vietnam War is the most venal of sins!," okay. If one wants to say "lying about being a member of an oppressed minority and taking advantage of that identity for personal gain is the most horrific of lies," okay. So long as you apply that even standard across the board, and your answer does not change whether one has an (R) or a (D) next to their name, I may be given to listen to you.

But I see no reason to get worked up over any of this, personally.

You have to admit that it's Trump who is attacking Elizabeth Warren about her Native American claim.

And while stealing some candy and stealing a car are both examples of theft, they're not equivalent. Falsifying medical records to avoid a draft is orders of magnitude more significant than exaggerating on a resume. It's intellectually dishonest to claim that the two are equivalent. Being drafted to serve your country is not the same as applying for a job. Bribing a doctor to falsify records is not a mere exaggeration on a job application.

Moreover, once can at least imagine how Elizabeth Warren could have been told she was more closely related to a native American than she was. Even in my family there are stories about foreign ancestors that I can't confirm. But bribing a doctor is bribing a doctor. And what Trump did is a crime.
 
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