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please define the reason..... (1 Viewer)

tecoyah

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After months of looking (and occasionally replying) to the endless threads devoted to this war.....I am left with a very simple question, which my own research cannot fully answer completely:


Regardless of what was said by the administration leading up to actual War (going by quoted, official comment only leads to further confusion)....why are we really there?
 
tecoyah said:
Regardless of what was said by the administration leading up to actual War (going by quoted, official comment only leads to further confusion)....why are we really there?


Number of reasons why we're there

Oil, gain control of the world, make our government wealthier.

Lachean said:
To make the world safe for democracy... by force!

It's not about democracy,The only reason why we're still in Iraq is to show we're responsible and to fix the big mistake our government made by invading Iraq.They know it was a huge mistake invading Iraq and we cannot leave until everything is kosher in Iraqland to fix the mistake our government made.
 
YourThrone said:
Number of reasons why we're there

Oil, gain control of the world, make our government wealthier.



It's not about democracy,The only reason why we're still in Iraq is to show we're responsible and to fix the big mistake our government made by invading Iraq.They know it was a huge mistake invading Iraq and we cannot leave until everything is kosher in Iraqland to fix the mistake our government made.

You obviously missed the sarcasm in my post.

Gain control of the world? Alot of the world is pretty screwed up, we dont want control of it, we want it to be more western.

Our government isnt getting wealthier, its in debt. It certainly has grown a great deal though...
 
tecoyah said:
After months of looking (and occasionally replying) to the endless threads devoted to this war.....I am left with a very simple question, which my own research cannot fully answer completely:


Regardless of what was said by the administration leading up to actual War (going by quoted, official comment only leads to further confusion)....why are we really there?

Why the regardless? The adminsitration was very clear in why we went to war, period. Go and read the Iraiq Liberations Act and the congressionalo authorization to use force. You don't need anymore than that, especially the baseless assertions the anti-war crowd will post.
 
tecoyah said:
After months of looking (and occasionally replying) to the endless threads devoted to this war.....I am left with a very simple question, which my own research cannot fully answer completely:


Regardless of what was said by the administration leading up to actual War (going by quoted, official comment only leads to further confusion)....why are we really there?

I think we are there because the global economy has "shrunk" the world so to speak. What one nation does has a much greater effect on everyone today in a way that it didn't 1000 years ago. The middle east is unstable and many of the ideas embraced by the populace are backwards and woefully out of date. The middle east needs to be "brought up to date" for the sake of stability in the future.
 
I hate being the country that police the world. It shouldn't be our job but unfortunately it is because somebody has to be the adult of the world. If we just all of a sudden said " fine do what you all want, we don't care, just leave us alone", I think the end of the World would be near. Not eveybody in the World likes or even has interest in our interests. To force them on somebody else is no better than them forcing it on us. It might take us 6-12,000 lives to avenge the souls of the poor 3000 that were taken that faithful morning. What are we to do? Were do we go? How do we ever if we can at all make it right?:(
 
Operation Iraqi Liberation. That was the first name the U.S. went with.:shock:

Does anyone remember during the lead up to the war, when Wolfowitz said that the War would essentially pay for itself using oil revenue?

Wolfowitz went in front of Congress on March 27, 2003.
-"There's a lot of money to pay for this that doesn't have to be U.S. taxpayer money."

-"It starts with the assets of the Iraqi people. We're dealing with a country that can finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon."

-"The oil revenues of that countrycould bring between $50 and $100 billion over the next two or three years."

But since Bush administration officials rarely testify under oath I guess it wasn't really perjury.:roll:

He must have gotten somebody's attention since he is now the president of the World Bank.

Sorry, back on topic: Anyone who says oil was not a factor is a true kool-aid drinker. Oil is the most important resource in modern times, and if many experts are correct, that oil recovery is or will be on the decline, why not make a move for it? That is what China seems to be doing. Also, another aspect of invasion was to establish a future military role in the region. Now that we are right next door to Iran, we can establish a pro-west leadership, just like when we set up the Shah. Finally, protection of Israel.

Edit: Quotes from: Armed Madhouse. Greg Palast. 2006.
 
Last edited:
Blitz said:
It might take us 6-12,000 lives to avenge the souls of the poor 3000 that were taken that faithful morning. What are we to do? Were do we go? How do we ever if we can at all make it right?:(
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and Goldstein (UBL). If the war was for retaliation why didn't we go into Saudi Arabia?
 
I didn't say or mean that Iraq was the main front on that particular part of the war, I ment just like it said." Were do we go, what do we do? We can't find Bin Laiden, Afganistan is falling apart, Iraq is a living dead zone, Korea doesn't give a care what it does just as long as it can play games with the U.S. and will get the bomb eventually, Iran will get the Bomb and destabilize the entire mid-east, China will continue do rip us apart ecomomically meaning no fair trade deals, and least I must forget; RUSSIA the one who hides in the shadows probably has a game plan to get back at us big time. Who knows they could be funding some of the main terrorist as we speak.:soap
 
Stinger said:
Why the regardless? The adminsitration was very clear in why we went to war, period. Go and read the Iraiq Liberations Act and the congressionalo authorization to use force. You don't need anymore than that, especially the baseless assertions the anti-war crowd will post.


you caught it too huh?

REGARDLESS of what BUSH told us, why are we REALLY THERE???

lol.

like anyone is going to convince someone that phrases the question like that of anything. His mind is already made up. No point in having a conversation with them.
 
Doremus Jessup said:
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and Goldstein (UBL). If the war was for retaliation why didn't we go into Saudi Arabia?


Thats a fact. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11.

ANother fact is that we are now, today, fighting Al Queda in Iraq. And Al Queda had EVERYTHING to do with 9-11.

So I cant see for the life of me why some dont support our CURRENT actions in Iraq.....regardless of how we got there.
 
ProudAmerican said:
you caught it too huh?

REGARDLESS of what BUSH told us, why are we REALLY THERE???

lol.

like anyone is going to convince someone that phrases the question like that of anything. His mind is already made up. No point in having a conversation with them.

I use the term "regardless" as a means to express my own confusion when researching the message coming from the Administration, I thought it was relatively clear. This was not meant as some sort of flame, or I would have started it in the basement. I am seriously questioning what was said as this War progressed, versus where we are now, as a way to figure it out in my own mind. As there are multiple opinions availible in this forum, felt I might gain insight by asking the question.
That you feel conversation is pointless, is your own descision, and does nothing to clarify my confusion....thanks for playing.

My confusion stems from the changes in message over the last few years, and my limited understanding of what we are accomplishing at this point, in the context of the mission set before us in Iraq. I felt I could gain some perspective by asking the members here for opinion on this issue....if you have no insight, and instead simply wish to debase me with poor insults, you have done so, now go away or make a basement thread where we can spar insults back and forth until you run away with a smaller Ego.

Now...back to our regularly scheduled discussion.
 
tecoyah said:
I use the term "regardless" as a means to express my own confusion when researching the message coming from the Administration, I thought it was relatively clear.

You said regardless of what they said, well why regardless, just go and read what they, and the congress and the American government as a whole said both this administration and the previous. Then read the UN resolutions. It is perfectly clear.

As there are multiple opinions availible in this forum, felt I might gain insight by asking the question.

Well people can have thier own opinions but you asked a factual question, why we went to war and that was fully explained during the run up to the war. Nothing has changed regarding that.


My confusion stems from the changes in message over the last few years,

It hasn't changed, the same reasons that were important then are important now.


and my limited understanding of what we are accomplishing at this point, in the context of the mission set before us in Iraq.

We're accomplishing what we set out to accomplish as stated in all those references I gave you.

I felt I could gain some perspective by asking the members here for opinion on this issue....if you have no insight, and instead simply wish to debase me with poor insults, you have done so, now go away or make a basement thread where we can spar insults back and forth until you run away with a smaller Ego.

I'm sorry you take offense but I find it curious that someone with enough interest in politics to come here would have somehow remained ignorant of why we went to war. Did you not pay attention during the run up and the extensive debates that went on at the UN and in the Congress? Have you ever read the Iraqi Liberation Act?

I guess I can post a few for you as far as WMD? Then of course there were his ties to terrorist and terrorist groups, did you miss that too?

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of Mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

Does that help make it more clear to you?


Now...back to our regularly scheduled discussion.

Never left it, perhap I didn't engage in a Bush bashing you might be looking for.
 
Why did we go to war? That's a very good question. You'd have to look into the minds of Bush & Company to get that answer.

There is no doubt that Bush & Co. deliberately deployed intelligence that they knew was discredited regarding the alleged threat from Saddam.

We also know that the Pentagon Office of Special Plans was created precisely to find evidence to support an already conceived plan to invade Iraq. A plan that was already in place and set to go the day after the twin towers collapsed.

Why would anyone do this? I have no other recourse but to believe the reasons are based on oil and money.

Why did we go to war?

Bush: In Greed We Trust.
 
Hoot said:
Why did we go to war? That's a very good question. You'd have to look into the minds of Bush & Company to get that answer.

There is no doubt that Bush & Co. deliberately deployed intelligence that they knew was discredited regarding the alleged threat from Saddam.

We also know that the Pentagon Office of Special Plans was created precisely to find evidence to support an already conceived plan to invade Iraq. A plan that was already in place and set to go the day after the twin towers collapsed.

Why would anyone do this? I have no other recourse but to believe the reasons are based on oil and money.

Why did we go to war?

Bush: In Greed We Trust.

Democratic talking points. nothing more.
 
Hoot said:
Why did we go to war? That's a very good question. You'd have to look into the minds of Bush & Company to get that answer.

Nope just read their speechs and the documents I've already cited along the the quotes I supplied. Your baseless assertions as to why are completely specious and disproven by the commissions that have looked into it.

Why would anyone do this? I have no other recourse but to believe the reasons are based on oil and money.

We have plans to invade lots of places, the military keeps plans on hand and revises them regularly.

Why did we go to war?

For the exact reasons stated.
 
ProudAmerican said:
Democratic talking points. nothing more.

Which no one buys anymore but Hoot just keeps spitting them out.
 
Stinger said:
I'm sorry you take offense but I find it curious that someone with enough interest in politics to come here would have somehow remained ignorant of why we went to war. Did you not pay attention during the run up and the extensive debates that went on at the UN and in the Congress? Have you ever read the Iraqi Liberation Act?

I guess I can post a few for you as far as WMD? Then of course there were his ties to terrorist and terrorist groups, did you miss that too?

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of Mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

.


Republican talking points....nothing more
 
tecoyah said:
Republican talking points....nothing more


looks like direct quotes to me.

I think you are confusing factual information with talking points.

;)
 
ProudAmerican said:
looks like direct quotes to me.

I think you are confusing factual information with talking points.

;)



And here we see the Gap in communication....everything I posted seems factual to me, just as all those quotes seem fact to you....so what would be the point in further discussion. I find your facts to be suspect, just as you see mine...I follow a political path you do not, and do not blindly trust a Bush Quote as anything other than...well.... a quote from an inept President, who tends to be secretive, and deceptive. Having watched both you and Stinger attempt to defend virtually EVERYTHING this administration does as justified and perfectly acceptable, I cannot in all honestly debate either of you....it is pointless.
We are so far apart in political understanding that discussion becomes fruitless, and actual debate unlikely.


I'm just gonna bow out and tell you how correct you are....so as to avoid further frustration. Instead I will look for someone who thinks for themselves...and might actually help me understand the mindset, that is the actual reason we are here....isnt it?


Done....you win
 
tecoyah said:
Republican talking points....nothing more

Really? Republican? Let's see

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998.


"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of Mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

Slam-dunk


The reason we went to war were made perfectly clear to anyone who bothered to pay attention and can be easily researched.
 
tecoyah said:
And here we see the Gap in communication....everything I posted seems factual to me,

Regardless of what was said by the administration leading up to actual War (going by quoted, official comment only leads to further confusion)....why are we really there?

That's not a fact and your assertions that no matter what the Administration said it MUST be a lie or at least wrong is not a fact.

It is a fact that the adminsitration stated the reasons we went to war, did so over and over and over and then there is also the legislation I pointed out to you. All factual.

just as all those quotes seem fact to you....

Unless you want to make the case all those Democrats quoted were lying they stand as fact.

so what would be the point in further discussion. I find your facts to be suspect, just as you see mine...

We haven't seen yours yet, and why do you find those quotes suspect? Their veracity is easily checked.

I follow a political path you do not, and do not blindly trust a Bush Quote as anything other than...well.... a quote from an inept President, who tends to be secretive, and deceptive.

The presidential quotes were from Clinton, so does your statement still apply?

Having watched both you and Stinger attempt to defend

Attempt, I've only suggested that you read what he and the previous administration said so that you could learn why we went to war, your original question which you freely put out for discussion.


virtually EVERYTHING this administration does as justified and perfectly acceptable,

Hyperbole is easilty spotted here, you don't think we fall for that do you.

I cannot in all honestly debate either of you....it is pointless.
We are so far apart in political understanding that discussion becomes fruitless, and actual debate unlikely.

If you want to discuss politics and have your opinion challenged and have to make your arguments on their merits you're in the right place. If you just want to discuss politics with people who agree with you there are places for that too.

Instead I will look for someone who thinks for themselves...and might actually help me understand the mindset, that is the actual reason we are here....isnt it?

You left out the Nah-nah-nah's
 
Funny.
All of Stinger's "factual quotes", while comming from both political parties, have not been proven yet.

We have found no WMD "Programs". (and conflicting intel from what the administration claimed were programs)
Granted we have found old pre 1991 weapons buried underneath the sand, unmaintained, unusable, etc.

So this does not prove that the reasons for originally invading are justified. And you know it, I understand you will continue to defend what were old WMDs from before the first gulf war as ongoing "programs". But its blatently obvious that they are not.

Now, granted I understand we went in for some dumb, reasons, I completely support our continued involvement now that we are already up **** creek without a paddle. Lets get those Iraqi's stable so we can get the hell out of there.
 
Caine said:
Funny.
All of Stinger's "factual quotes", while comming from both political parties, have not been proven yet.

While I disagree that was not what the OP asked.


So this does not prove that the reasons for originally invading are justified.

Again not the subject of thread, the OP said the reasons were not given and that he still didn't know what they were. The reasons were clearly given.

And you know it, I understand you will continue to defend what were old WMDs from before the first gulf war as ongoing "programs". But its blatently obvious that they are not.

I know what I have posted of what we have found remains unrefuted and it was plenty and we discover more and more each day.

Now, granted I understand we went in for some dumb, reasons,

Not a very convincing rebuttle of the reasons.
 

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