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plans for another attack foiled - Ludwigshburg Germany

Chagos

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With another user on an ego shooter forum checking out the Munich shooter's browsing habits, he came across a 15 year old in Ludwigsburg with whom the Munich perp had animated discussions over planning nation wide attacks.

The user informed the police immediately who then raided the 15 year old's home.

They found an abundance of small caliber rounds, various knives and daggers, chemicals and other materials as well as downloaded instructions on how to make explosives.

Also a plan of the kid's school that showed the designated escape routes there.

He's been detained and is now in a "closed" psychiatry unit for youths.

Schüler in Ludwigsburg festgenommen: Der 15-Jährige soll einen Amoklauf geplant haben
 
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DA60

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I believe almost nothing the 'authorities' say until they prove it. And I don't like police announcing arrests. They should keep their mouth shut until the people involved are actually convicted of a crime. Bragging about an arrest just makes giving the perp a fair trial that much harder and it can ruin the accused' life if it turns out he is innocent.

Maybe they foiled an attack.

Or maybe they trumped up charges on some dingy teenager to look good for the media.

When I see proof...only then will I believe it.

Innocent until proven guilty.
 

Chagos

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I believe almost nothing the 'authorities' say until they prove it. And I don't like police announcing arrests. They should keep their mouth shut until the people involved are actually convicted of a crime. Bragging about an arrest just makes giving the perp a fair trial that much harder and it can ruin the accused' life if it turns out he is innocent.

Maybe they foiled an attack.

Or maybe they trumped up charges on some dingy teenager to look good for the media.

When I see proof...only then will I believe it.

Innocent until proven guilty.
Well, that's an interesting opinion piece but hardly adds any facts to the story nor does it successfully refute anything.
 

coldjoint

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The OP is trying to minimize Islamic attacks again. The fact that there are crazies that are not Islamic means nothing. Islam will still do what it does. And that is teaching hate and intolerance and violence. And the terror will only increase.
 

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The OP is trying to minimize Islamic attacks again. The fact that there are crazies that are not Islamic means nothing. Islam will still do what it does. And that is teaching hate and intolerance and violence. And the terror will only increase.

Personally, I likethe idea that the plot has been foiled, for its own sake, irrespective of motive.
 

Chagos

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Personally, I likethe idea that the plot has been foiled, for its own sake, irrespective of motive.
From the sound of it the posts in question (on the forum) are some time ago. The kid (so it is reported) also admitted to having had murderous thoughts in the past on account of problems at school etc. but also states having distanced himself from it all some time ago.

Well, that leaves the question of what all that stuff was doing in his room. Police state that the parents showed astonishment at its existence. Whether police showed astonishment at this form of parenting is not reported.:roll:
 

nota bene

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With another user on an ego shooter forum checking out the Munich shooter's browsing habits, he came across a 15 year old in Ludwigsburg with whom the Munich perp had animated discussions over planning nation wide attacks.

The user informed the police immediately who then raided the 15 year old's home.

They found an abundance of small caliber rounds, various knives and daggers, chemicals and other materials as well as downloaded instructions on how to make explosives.

Also a plan of the kid's school that showed the designated escape routes there.

He's been detained and is now in a "closed" psychiatry unit for youths.

Schüler in Ludwigsburg festgenommen: Der 15-Jährige soll einen Amoklauf geplant haben

What, exactly, do you want to discuss?
 

Chagos

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What, exactly, do you want to discuss?
Well, minimizing Islamic attacks wouldn't be it, seeing how there's no Islamic link in this one that can be determined.

But there seems to be a certain element of juvenile discontent (frustration, lack of mental equilibrium etc., psychological instability) leading, potentially at least, to homicidal fantasies which can, as we see in Munich, lead to going beyond just fantasizing.

Perhaps an element requiring more address than just being smothered in "they be Muslims and thus they all be bad" convenience, where mass murder emanates not just from IS envoys in those cases, that is, where Islam is involved.

The only reason not everyone has already been having a feast with this one is that it has a) not gone international as far as I can see, and b) the person and family concerned is not of a migration background.

Thus conveniently not worthy of any further attention?

Is assessment of psychological affliction negligible? In cases of Muslims anyway?
 
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coldjoint

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Well, minimizing Islamic attacks wouldn't be it, seeing how there's no Islamic link in this one that can be determined.

But there seems to be a certain element of juvenile discontent (frustration, lack of mental equilibrium etc., psychological instability) leading, potentially at least, to homicidal fantasies which can, as we see in Munich, lead to going beyond just fantasizing.

Perhaps an element requiring more address than just being smothered in "they be Muslims and thus they all be bad" convenience, where mass murder emanates not just from IS envoys in those cases, that is, where Islam is involved.

The only reason not everyone has already been having a feast with this one is that it has a) not gone international as far as I can see, and b) the person and family concerned is not of a migration background.

Thus conveniently not worthy of any further attention?

Is assessment of psychological affliction negligible? In cases of Muslims anyway?

And that is exactly why you started it. Or are you going to deny your involvement in every thead about Islam? I don't trust your motives, but I understand your motives.
 

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Kudos to the informer who got the authorities involved which enabled the plot to be foiled. That's a good thing. At least in my eyes anyway.
 

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Kudos to the informer who got the authorities involved which enabled the plot to be foiled. That's a good thing. At least in my eyes anyway.


It is good but I see some problems as well (and I am sure you do)

many time-after there has been a massacre, lots of people pipe up and say the killer was acting odd, was weird, was a loner etc. we heard this over the racist who killed a bunch of black people of faith, the jerk who crippled Gabby Giffords and murdered other innocents, the VT killer etc. and lots of us respond by saying-GREAT NOW YOU SAY SOMETHING-when its too late.

but we also worry about people over-reacting and ratting out anyone they don't like or whom they misunderstand. I remember when I was mugged and had to shoot someone, the mugger's attorney (the judge struck this part of my testimony and the questions) asked me wasn't it true if I had once threatened to "kill someone" and I said yeah, I went in to dunk in a basketball game and some asshole clotheslined me and I told him if he did that crap again "i'd kill him". Now no one with a brain (including her honor) saw that as credible or valid threat. But in this day of all the nastiness afoot, I can see the cops being called on all sorts of people and this MAY lead to all kinds of problems (sort of like say a motorist telling a police officer that he has a licensed firearm in his car and gets shot)

so I don't know what the answer is. reporting too much or not enough?
 

MickeyW

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With another user on an ego shooter forum checking out the Munich shooter's browsing habits, he came across a 15 year old in Ludwigsburg with whom the Munich perp had animated discussions over planning nation wide attacks.

The user informed the police immediately who then raided the 15 year old's home.

They found an abundance of small caliber rounds, various knives and daggers, chemicals and other materials as well as downloaded instructions on how to make explosives.

Also a plan of the kid's school that showed the designated escape routes there.

He's been detained and is now in a "closed" psychiatry unit for youths.

Schüler in Ludwigsburg festgenommen: Der 15-Jährige soll einen Amoklauf geplant haben

Good if true.....

I believe almost nothing the 'authorities' say until they prove it. And I don't like police announcing arrests. They should keep their mouth shut until the people involved are actually convicted of a crime. Bragging about an arrest just makes giving the perp a fair trial that much harder and it can ruin the accused' life if it turns out he is innocent.

Maybe they foiled an attack.

Or maybe they trumped up charges on some dingy teenager to look good for the media.

When I see proof...only then will I believe it.

Innocent until proven guilty.

Very good points!

Well, that's an interesting opinion piece but hardly adds any facts to the story nor does it successfully refute anything.

Either way....it's merely a speed bump......on the road to terrorism.
 

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It is good but I see some problems as well (and I am sure you do)

many time-after there has been a massacre, lots of people pipe up and say the killer was acting odd, was weird, was a loner etc. we heard this over the racist who killed a bunch of black people of faith, the jerk who crippled Gabby Giffords and murdered other innocents, the VT killer etc. and lots of us respond by saying-GREAT NOW YOU SAY SOMETHING-when its too late.

but we also worry about people over-reacting and ratting out anyone they don't like or whom they misunderstand. I remember when I was mugged and had to shoot someone, the mugger's attorney (the judge struck this part of my testimony and the questions) asked me wasn't it true if I had once threatened to "kill someone" and I said yeah, I went in to dunk in a basketball game and some asshole clotheslined me and I told him if he did that crap again "i'd kill him". Now no one with a brain (including her honor) saw that as credible or valid threat. But in this day of all the nastiness afoot, I can see the cops being called on all sorts of people and this MAY lead to all kinds of problems (sort of like say a motorist telling a police officer that he has a licensed firearm in his car and gets shot)

so I don't know what the answer is. reporting too much or not enough?

Regarding the reporting, I see it as just using basic common sense TD, no different to how I would look at any situation, (not just terror related) where there are indicators that something isn't right.

If you think things through whilst being observant and using common sense, you should be able to make a good judgment about whether an activity is suspicious or not. (thinking through and common sense being the key words.) Whilst there very well could be reasonable explanations for some suspicious activities, it's best to let the experts come to that conclusion.
 

MickeyW

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Regarding the reporting, I see it as just using basic common sense TD, no different to how I would look at any situation, (not just terror related) where there are indicators that something isn't right.

If you think things through whilst being observant and using common sense, you should be able to make a good judgment about whether an activity is suspicious or not. (thinking through and common sense being the key words.) Whilst there very well could be reasonable explanations for some suspicious activities, it's best to let the experts come to that conclusion.

As I have stated many times over the years, sometimes there are no experts available and a citizen needs to be able to deal with it right then....
 

chromium

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It is good but I see some problems as well (and I am sure you do)

many time-after there has been a massacre, lots of people pipe up and say the killer was acting odd, was weird, was a loner etc. we heard this over the racist who killed a bunch of black people of faith, the jerk who crippled Gabby Giffords and murdered other innocents, the VT killer etc. and lots of us respond by saying-GREAT NOW YOU SAY SOMETHING-when its too late.

but we also worry about people over-reacting and ratting out anyone they don't like or whom they misunderstand. I remember when I was mugged and had to shoot someone, the mugger's attorney (the judge struck this part of my testimony and the questions) asked me wasn't it true if I had once threatened to "kill someone" and I said yeah, I went in to dunk in a basketball game and some asshole clotheslined me and I told him if he did that crap again "i'd kill him". Now no one with a brain (including her honor) saw that as credible or valid threat. But in this day of all the nastiness afoot, I can see the cops being called on all sorts of people and this MAY lead to all kinds of problems (sort of like say a motorist telling a police officer that he has a licensed firearm in his car and gets shot)

so I don't know what the answer is. reporting too much or not enough?

there's been 1st graders accused of making threats because they pointed a chicken finger at another kid. But with guns, like the flint tragedy, even 1st graders *are* a threat

the problem in most cases is we look at someone who is autistic or depressed and assume they're homicidal, when the warning signs are actually quite different. Often those killers, like at orlando, DID make many clear threats, whined about groups they hated, put forth truly bizarre conspiracies, and make angry outbursts
 

TurtleDude

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there's been 1st graders accused of making threats because they pointed a chicken finger at another kid. But with guns, like the flint tragedy, even 1st graders *are* a threat

the problem in most cases is we look at someone who is autistic or depressed and assume they're homicidal, when the warning signs are actually quite different. Often those killers, like at orlando, DID make many clear threats, whined about groups they hated, put forth truly bizarre conspiracies, and make angry outbursts

true, its a line drawing issue
 
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