Phoenix police revoke guy's white privilege

[Peter]

So you live in a country where gun ownershipis legal and you have guys wandering about with assault rifles on the street legally but if the police knock on your door and you have a gun in hand it's fine for them to kill you on the spot?
That's not confusing at all, not even a little bit.

 

[noonereal]

Noise complaint led to the fatal police shooting of Ryan Whitaker

This story is a few days old but it doesn't look like it will get any national play so I'll just throw it out for discussion.

Basically you've got a couple living in an apartment complex. A neighbor calls in a noise complaint. The dispatcher asks if it's just noise or if there is violence. The complainant hedges a bit and then says something to the effect of "If it will get people her faster then it's violent". The cops show up and you damned sure can't hear any loud noise. The bang on the door and announce "Phoenix Police!" one time. The resident opens the door and has a gun in his hand though at his side. The cops react immediately, start shouting orders and the cop behind the resident unloads on him.

Video can be seen here -



This video has been edited for the news but gives footage from both cop's cameras.



I've got a couple of comments on this having engaged more than one person in similar, not exactly the same, circumstances.

First, when you are confronted with a situation like this your perception tends to get really intense and time seems to slow down a little. The cop that shot had plenty of time to recognize whether the threat was legitimate or not. I'm pretty comfortable that I would not have pulled the trigger in this situation because I saw the "threat" going to his knees instead of making any aggressive move.

Second, as far as the guy answering the door goes it's a good idea to ask who's there if you're unsure. Yeah, the person on the other side could be lying to you but it will at least give you some idea of what you'll be confronting. If you're going to be armed when you open that door then you better have a good reason to have your weapon in your hand.

My overall take is that the cop that shot screwed up and screwed up badly. I understand why he shot but part of the use of force continuum is that deadly force be used only when your life or the life of another is in imminent danger. I don't see a lot of justification for a rational belief of imminence.

Finally, I'd like to remind people that cops really do kill white guys too.

so you agree, police reform is needed

good, you are on the same wavelength as Black Live Matter.

 

[Lutherf]

so you agree, police reform is needed

good, you are on the same wavelength as Black Live Matter.

No. One cop screwed up.

How did you people get to be so totalitarian? One thing goes wrong and all of a sudden you want to change the entire system. It's some of the most absurd political crap I've ever seen and it just keeps getting worse. At one point it was 4 year olds with "finger guns" that were going to be the end of the world and then averyone on the right was a war monger then we were all racist and now we're all just sub-human. It's not funny or cute any more. If you really want to solve problems you need to start picking the stuff that IS a problem instead of just making **** up and calling it a problem.

 

[noonereal]

No. One cop screwed up.

How did you people get to be so totalitarian? One thing goes wrong and all of a sudden you want to change the entire system. It's some of the most absurd political crap I've ever seen and it just keeps getting worse. At one point it was 4 year olds with "finger guns" that were going to be the end of the world and then averyone on the right was a war monger then we were all racist and now we're all just sub-human. It's not funny or cute any more. If you really want to solve problems you need to start picking the stuff that IS a problem instead of just making **** up and calling it a problem.

It's not political and it's systemic not anecdotal.

Hope you learned!

 

[Lutherf]

It's not political and it's systemic not anecdotal.

Hope you learned!

It's not systemic. You think it is because you get fed that kind of crap through social media, propagandist news outlets and a political class that LOVES the idea of taking over everything. The sad part is that the lefties, if they get their way, are going to be throwing out the baby with the bath water when it comes to individual liberty and fundamental rights.

 

[vesper]

It's not political and it's systemic not anecdotal.

Hope you learned!

No it is not systemic. That is a lie. Police officers across the country that serve dealing with **** everyday seeing the worst of humanity are now being held under a microscope. It damn well is political. Police across this country are retiring or resigning in droves because the low pay they get for putting up with all this **** isn't worth it. You leftists want to defund the police? You won't need to because the forces are dwindling daily. And at one point in your life when you really need one, your call will not be answered...happy?

 

[noonereal]

It's not systemic. You think it is because you get fed that kind of crap through social media, propagandist news outlets and a political class that LOVES the idea of taking over everything. The sad part is that the lefties, if they get their way, are going to be throwing out the baby with the bath water when it comes to individual liberty and fundamental rights.

fed? I have lived it and I am white.

 

[jcgriff2]

Noise complaint led to the fatal police shooting of Ryan Whitaker

This story is a few days old but it doesn't look like it will get any national play so I'll just throw it out for discussion.

Basically you've got a couple living in an apartment complex. A neighbor calls in a noise complaint. The dispatcher asks if it's just noise or if there is violence. The complainant hedges a bit and then says something to the effect of "If it will get people her faster then it's violent". The cops show up and you damned sure can't hear any loud noise. The bang on the door and announce "Phoenix Police!" one time. The resident opens the door and has a gun in his hand though at his side. The cops react immediately, start shouting orders and the cop behind the resident unloads on him.

Video can be seen here -



This video has been edited for the news but gives footage from both cop's cameras.



I've got a couple of comments on this having engaged more than one person in similar, not exactly the same, circumstances.

First, when you are confronted with a situation like this your perception tends to get really intense and time seems to slow down a little. The cop that shot had plenty of time to recognize whether the threat was legitimate or not. I'm pretty comfortable that I would not have pulled the trigger in this situation because I saw the "threat" going to his knees instead of making any aggressive move.

Second, as far as the guy answering the door goes it's a good idea to ask who's there if you're unsure. Yeah, the person on the other side could be lying to you but it will at least give you some idea of what you'll be confronting. If you're going to be armed when you open that door then you better have a good reason to have your weapon in your hand.

My overall take is that the cop that shot screwed up and screwed up badly. I understand why he shot but part of the use of force continuum is that deadly force be used only when your life or the life of another is in imminent danger. I don't see a lot of justification for a rational belief of imminence.

Finally, I'd like to remind people that cops really do kill white guys too.

I agree with you and do not think that use of deadly force was needed here.

I've been looking for stats on the number of white vs. black people killed by police, but the info is very difficult to find, if you can.

If the guy was black, we would have heard about it and Al Sharpton would have been there by now.

WHITE LIVES MATTER TOO.

 

[joko104]

So you live in a country where gun ownershipis legal and you have guys wandering about with assault rifles on the street legally but if the police knock on your door and you have a gun in hand it's fine for them to kill you on the spot?
That's not confusing at all, not even a little bit.

That is because you opening premise is 100% wrong. What he did was not legal. Stepping into a public hallway with a gun in his hand was illegal.

He was not in his home, but stepped into a public hallway. Why you may hold a rifle in public in some states, even in open carry states you must have your handgun in a holster or your belt. You may not have it in your hand.

 

[joko104]

Any of you who answer your door by opening the door and stepping outside with a gun in your hand - say so. State that is your normal practice to people who knock on your door or ring your doorbell.

 

[joko104]

Hitler's propaganda minister explained how if you tell a lie enough times everyone will come to accept it is true.

The rioters, Democratic Party and the MSM have convinced nearly everyone on this thread, including those who claim to support the police, that everyone who becomes a police officer is volunteering to go on suicide missions.

NO ONE should be a patrol officer now. If a patrol officer, they should refuse to carry any weapon of any kind and refuse to answer any call or do anything where a firearm or weapon - even just a taser - might be needed because they are required to accept going to any scene is potentially being sent on a suicide mission.

I can state for certain I would trust almost none of you on this thread with my children and absolutely would never want those of you as a back up partner at anything because I know for certain you would not have my back.

Answering a "loud noise" and "violence" 911 call - urging the police to "hurry!" - possibly to a low rent high crime and drug activity enclosed apartment complex - a middle aged man with no shirt answers the door stepping out to the officer to his right - while hiding a handgun in his hand behind his back. That is something no one does. No one on this thread would do. It is a 100% irrational act - and a criminally illegal act - and therefore in the 0.5 seconds the officer to his left has to decide whether to shoot - or if not in the next 0.5 seconds his partner could be fatally shot and the gunman turning on him. Most on this thread demand he accept that his partner and himself were on a suicide mission - time for one of both to accept being murdered.

NEVER would I trust most of you to have my or anyone else's back. I am fully on the side of urban patrol officers refusing to respond to any calls of any possible danger to themselves - as in never. The cop haters of the anarchists, rioters, MSM and Democratic Party really have won in their non-stop hate-propaganda against police. ALL police.

 

[joko104]

To be specific, his stepping into the hallway - a public area - with a handgun in his hand is a Class 6 felony under current Arizona law. You can not be in public with a handgun in your hand.

I am confident this applies to all states. You may be holding a rifle in your hand in Arizona and some other states (with exceptions) and not in others. You may not in Florida for example.

 

[btthegreat]

That isn't what I wrote and, as I have said before, I've been in this situation as a cop more than once so I have a pretty good idea of what happened in my head. I can't speak for everyone else but the resident did not come out of the apartment in an aggressive manner and when he recognized the presence of police he first puts his gun hand behind his back in response to the cop he sees. He then starts to go to his knees and puts his free hand up in a "surrender" motion. From the perspective of the shooter's body cam you can see see that the resident is almost completely on his knees when the cop shoots and other than putting the handgun behind his body the resident doesn't make any aggressive move beyond initially hollering something that sounds like "WHAT!" as he opens the door, likely expecting to see some neighborhood PITA.

It appears that all three parties were caught off guard and all three reacted to some extent but the cop that shot didn't stop reacting to "threat" even as the other two parties began to recognize what was happening.

The way I see this problem in broad terms, is that too often when an innocent person gets shot by a cop, somehow nobody did anything wrong. there is no accountability anywhere in the system. There is no correction, no change, no response to the tragedy. It is a giant unfortunate 'oops' and thoughts and prayers go out for the family, and the rest of the story is about circling the wagons, defensiveness, liability management and public relations management. Everyone has a vested interest in protecting and defending the cop, and the policies, and the procedures and the chief of police, and the union etc.

If there was a shooting and someone got killed who had no intention of harming a cop, then by something went wrong and something needs to be improved. Maybe it was cop error, or maybe its the training, or maybe in the policies/ procedures, or maybe its the leadership, or maybe there is a problem in the statutes for the state legislature to look at, but you cannot have a dead person who was not a threat, and do absolutely nothing to keep that scenario from repeating itself.

So I have a question for you. Lets assume your reading of the video is right on the money. what can the phoenix police do to prevent that same tragedy from repeating? Where does your gut tell you, the essence of the problem is here. Is is poor vetting of police recruits, poor communication, poor training or is the problem more likely to be with the policies themselves?

 

[joko104]

The way I see this problem in broad terms, is that too often when an innocent person gets shot by a cop, somehow nobody did anything wrong. there is no accountability anywhere in the system. There is no correction, no change, no response to the tragedy. It is a giant unfortunate 'oops' and thoughts and prayers go out for the family, and the rest of the story is about circling the wagons, defensiveness, liability management and public relations management. Everyone has a vested interest in protecting and defending the cop, and the policies, and the procedures and the chief of police, and the union etc. If there was a shooting and someone got killed who had no intention of harming a cop, then by something went wrong and something needs to be improved. Maybe it was cop error, or maybe its the training, or maybe in the policies/ procedures, or maybe its the leadership, or maybe there is a problem in the statutes for the state legislature to look at, but you cannot have a dead person who was not a threat, and do absolutely nothing to keep that scenario from repeating itself. So I have a question for you. Lets assume your reading of the video is right on the money. what can the phoenix police do to prevent that same tragedy from repeating? Where does your gut tell you, the essence of the problem is here. Is is poor vetting of police recruits, poor communication, poor training or is the problem more likely to be with the policies themselves?

Shut down the police and sheriff's department, district attorney's office and the criminal courts. Empty and close the city jail. Direct 911 calls to mayor's office. Post signage that all criminal laws and statutes have been declared null and void in the Phoenix. Pass a city ordinance that it is a crime for any state or federal law enforcement agency to make any arrests or even enter the city. Then this tragedy will not happen to any police officer again, will avoid the tragedy and the people of Phoenix will be living in Democratic Party utopia. The only downside is no one will be able to cheer violence against or murder of police in Phoenix. But maybe hanging fire proof effigies of police here and there that people can shoot, stab and set on fire might mitigate that downside somewhat.

 

[Lutherf]

The way I see this problem in broad terms, is that too often when an innocent person gets shot by a cop, somehow nobody did anything wrong. there is no accountability anywhere in the system. There is no correction, no change, no response to the tragedy. It is a giant unfortunate 'oops' and thoughts and prayers go out for the family, and the rest of the story is about circling the wagons, defensiveness, liability management and public relations management. Everyone has a vested interest in protecting and defending the cop, and the policies, and the procedures and the chief of police, and the union etc.

If there was a shooting and someone got killed who had no intention of harming a cop, then by something went wrong and something needs to be improved. Maybe it was cop error, or maybe its the training, or maybe in the policies/ procedures, or maybe its the leadership, or maybe there is a problem in the statutes for the state legislature to look at, but you cannot have a dead person who was not a threat, and do absolutely nothing to keep that scenario from repeating itself.

So I have a question for you. Lets assume your reading of the video is right on the money. what can the phoenix police do to prevent that same tragedy from repeating? Where does your gut tell you, the essence of the problem is here. Is is poor vetting of police recruits, poor communication, poor training or is the problem more likely to be with the policies themselves?

You bring up some good questions and those questions, actually, are why this particular incident is a good one to work from. There is, admittedly, a whole lot of "grey area" in this and, since the victim is white, we can ignore the majority of the racial baggage that inevitably ends up taking over if the victim is black.

No two incidents are ever the same so when we ask "what could be done different" we're kind of shoveling water against the tide. We may well see similar incidents and similar circumstances but we won't see THIS incident again. It's important for viewers to remember that the actual shooting is always the result of a series of circumstances, not just one thing and that series includes all kinds of stuff a viewer might not catch in a video clip. I'll elaborate on this later but right now I need to do some yard work before it his 100°.

 

[Paradoxical]

The whole "stop time" thing is part of the problem we have when seeing these events on video. It's why evaluating these videos in a circumspect manner is so important.

The guy in the apartment came out as if he expected to find some punk that had been screwing around. As soon as he recognized "cop" he started backing off. The cops saw "guy with a gun" and both of them reacted appropriately at the start. The cop in front of the guy realized that his "suspect" was backing off but the cop that shot seemed to have "Threat! Threat! Threat!" going off in his head and couldn't shut it off. That's a problem because if you don't recognize that a threat is changing you can make a really bad decision.

A cop never knows what is going to happen and I think it is almost a protective and reflexive reaction. It is inconceivable that any cop would want to kill someone and having a gun in your hand is a reason. That cop doesn't know if the guy is drunk or crazy and could shoot him or the other officers in a split second.

 

[joko104]

Any of you willing to admit what you really are supset about is the guy hiding the handgun behind his back didn't raise his gun in 0.5 seconds shooting the officer to his right in the face. Then spinning around to the other officer firing at him he didn't see from behind, also killing that officer too? The only thing better being if the guy also then dies so all 3 dead - so you can protest his being shot to death by the police?

I am very pro 2A rights, but not as much as any of you. Any other current gun control laws and criminal statutes related to guns that you claim are unconstitutional and people should ignore? As this thread progresses I'll post a list of those who support 2A this way for relevancy for topics on the gun control board of the forum.

 

[joko104]

A cop never knows what is going to happen and I think it is almost a protective and reflexive reaction. It is inconceivable that any cop would want to kill someone and having a gun in your hand is a reason. That cop doesn't know if the guy is drunk or crazy and could shoot him or the other officers in a split second.

That cop knew the man was acting in a completely irrational felonious way with a handgun in his hand he was trying to hide behind his back, approaching his partner to point-blank range in this felonious behavior for a situation reported to him to be urgent and violent.

 

[HIP56948]

What would a police officer do if he/she stopped somebody for speeding and when the officer told the person to "Step out of the car", the person came out with a gun in his/her hand?
There's certain things in life that You-Just-Don't-do. I have a pistol but I damn sure would not answer my door with it in my hand.

 

[joko104]

The guy in the apartment came out as if he expected to find some punk that had been screwing around.

You also can even read people's minds by just by watching a 5 second video tape of someone? In your mind reading ability, what do you claim each of the two police officers expected to come out the door?

I do not agree with you that if a person thinks some punk is screwing around in the hallway of an apartment complex they should or may go check it out with a handgun in their hand - particularly since doing so is a felony in that state.

 

[joko104]

That he addresses suspicious knocking by going out to investigate with a 9mm in his hand makes him sound like a George Zimmerman personality - other than Zimmerman erroneously wasn't walking around with his 9mm in his hand to be able to shoot suspicious people quicker.

Whitaker should have been in charge of neighborhood crime watch being more skilled at it that Zimmerman was. Zimmerman reckless followed the law by carrying his 9mm in a holster rather than his hand, which no one should do despite any laws to the contrary.

Everyone with a handgun should always have it in their hand when in public despite any felony laws against doing so to be more prepared to shoot faster and as their 2A constitutional right - or at least most on this thread so far think so.

 

[Peter King]

Noise complaint led to the fatal police shooting of Ryan Whitaker

This story is a few days old but it doesn't look like it will get any national play so I'll just throw it out for discussion.

Basically you've got a couple living in an apartment complex. A neighbor calls in a noise complaint. The dispatcher asks if it's just noise or if there is violence. The complainant hedges a bit and then says something to the effect of "If it will get people her faster then it's violent". The cops show up and you damned sure can't hear any loud noise. The bang on the door and announce "Phoenix Police!" one time. The resident opens the door and has a gun in his hand though at his side. The cops react immediately, start shouting orders and the cop behind the resident unloads on him.

Video can be seen here -



This video has been edited for the news but gives footage from both cop's cameras.



I've got a couple of comments on this having engaged more than one person in similar, not exactly the same, circumstances.

First, when you are confronted with a situation like this your perception tends to get really intense and time seems to slow down a little. The cop that shot had plenty of time to recognize whether the threat was legitimate or not. I'm pretty comfortable that I would not have pulled the trigger in this situation because I saw the "threat" going to his knees instead of making any aggressive move.

Second, as far as the guy answering the door goes it's a good idea to ask who's there if you're unsure. Yeah, the person on the other side could be lying to you but it will at least give you some idea of what you'll be confronting. If you're going to be armed when you open that door then you better have a good reason to have your weapon in your hand.

My overall take is that the cop that shot screwed up and screwed up badly. I understand why he shot but part of the use of force continuum is that deadly force be used only when your life or the life of another is in imminent danger. I don't see a lot of justification for a rational belief of imminence.

Finally, I'd like to remind people that cops really do kill white guys too.

1. nobody denies the police shoots white people too, that was never the issue with the black lives matter protest

2. this is tragic and the officers need to be prosecuted for a needless death of a civilian

 

[joko104]

1. nobody denies the police shoots white people too, that was never the issue with the black lives matter protest

2. this is tragic and the officers need to be prosecuted for a needless death of a civilian

What should the officer who didn't shoot be prosecuted for? What other officers should be prosecuted? Every officer in the Democratic police department?

On a greater level, what do you think should be done about so many Democratic Party run police departments having their police officers murder so many people?

 

[joko104]

I don't think this guy knew that it was cops at the door. I understand that the cops announced themselves as such but that's no guarantee that the guy inside heard it or understood what was said. When he came out it looked to me as if he was looking for someone that had been harassing people in the area before.

Reading the story further elsewhere, twice in the past someone had knocked on his door and when he answered no one was there. I doubt that constitutes a reasonable fear of imminent death justifying an exception to the felony prohibition of having a handgun in your hand in public.

 

[joko104]

I've posted in the past that schools should teach children how to interact with the police. However, I did not think this should be to teach that it is best to approach the police holding a handgun. But it also should be explained if they are not a citizen then they should holding a big knife instead of a pistol.

This way, the police know they are law abiding people doing all they can to help preserve law and order - particularly against pranksters knocking on doors and then running off. It also means guys like Whitaker might be able to get the door open and shoot or throw the knife quicker before the pranker gets too far away for a more likely kill shot or throw.


Police should be trained that if they see someone has a firearm in a holster, glovebox or announce they have a concealed handgun and license, the officer should instruct the person to put their handgun in their hand, **** it if a handgun with exposed trigger and to have their finger on the trigger. Better still having a handgun in each hand.