Phoenix police revoke guy's white privilege

[Lutherf]

Noise complaint led to the fatal police shooting of Ryan Whitaker

This story is a few days old but it doesn't look like it will get any national play so I'll just throw it out for discussion.

Basically you've got a couple living in an apartment complex. A neighbor calls in a noise complaint. The dispatcher asks if it's just noise or if there is violence. The complainant hedges a bit and then says something to the effect of "If it will get people her faster then it's violent". The cops show up and you damned sure can't hear any loud noise. The bang on the door and announce "Phoenix Police!" one time. The resident opens the door and has a gun in his hand though at his side. The cops react immediately, start shouting orders and the cop behind the resident unloads on him.

Video can be seen here -



This video has been edited for the news but gives footage from both cop's cameras.



I've got a couple of comments on this having engaged more than one person in similar, not exactly the same, circumstances.

First, when you are confronted with a situation like this your perception tends to get really intense and time seems to slow down a little. The cop that shot had plenty of time to recognize whether the threat was legitimate or not. I'm pretty comfortable that I would not have pulled the trigger in this situation because I saw the "threat" going to his knees instead of making any aggressive move.

Second, as far as the guy answering the door goes it's a good idea to ask who's there if you're unsure. Yeah, the person on the other side could be lying to you but it will at least give you some idea of what you'll be confronting. If you're going to be armed when you open that door then you better have a good reason to have your weapon in your hand.

My overall take is that the cop that shot screwed up and screwed up badly. I understand why he shot but part of the use of force continuum is that deadly force be used only when your life or the life of another is in imminent danger. I don't see a lot of justification for a rational belief of imminence.

Finally, I'd like to remind people that cops really do kill white guys too.

 

[Drawdown]

Looks to me more like the firing officer was reacting based on his interpretation of what the other officer may have been seeing as opposed to what the man with the gun was actually doing.

 

[joko104]

That's a tough call as a criminal case, but there was little reason to shoot - but not "no" reason. Making retrospective opinions is worthless. Most police have very little actual situational combat training - so they will "startle" the same as anyone else.

It is only in Hollywood that whoever fires first wins - because bad guys instantaneously fall down dead. That's not how it really works - particularly with police having 9mm "hardball" ammo. There have been people hit 10 times by hardball 9mm and lived to tell the tale.

What is stupid is opening a door to police holding a gun. However, it is not unlawful to do so nor a crime to be stupid. I do not anticipate charges being filed. I would not convict. I know in fact that due to inherent delayed reaction times IF he was going to shoot the police there is a fair chance he could have succeeded as a generality.

Should the person who essentially had this person "SWATTED" be charged?

 

[Ikari]

That cop should be fired and face repercussions for having shot a citizen in that circumstance. Being a cop isn't license to unload as soon as a door is opened.

 

[joko104]

Looks to me more like the firing officer was reacting based on his interpretation of what the other officer may have been seeing as opposed to what the man with the gun was actually doing.

And/or the history of that officer.

 

[Mr Person]

Finally, I'd like to remind people that cops really do kill white guys too.

Nobody said they don't.

 

[joko104]

That cop should be fired and face repercussions for having shot a citizen in that circumstance. Being a cop isn't license to unload as soon as a door is opened.

1. He didn't "unload" into that guy.
2. He did not shoot because the guy opened the door. He fired because he saw the man was holding a pistol with his finger on the trigger. What rational reason would a person open the door to the police holding a pistol?

The guy wasn't thinking. The police had been told (possibly falsely) this was a violent situation.

There are times when a person should have a gun in their hand. Approaching police isn't one of those.

 

[Ikari]

1. He didn't "unload" into that guy.
2. He did not shoot because the guy opened the door. He fired because he saw the man was holding a pistol with his finger on the trigger. What rational reason would a person open the door to the police holding a pistol?

The guy wasn't thinking. The police had been told (possibly falsely) this was a violent situation.

There are times when a person should have a gun in their hand. Approaching police isn't one of those.

It's America, and he's in his own home. He can have a gun if he wants. Exercising rights isn't excuse to be executed by the State.

The police ****ed up here, and there should be ramifications for ****ing up this badly.

 

[joko104]

Usually, if a person is HOLDING a gun without clear justification in a public setting, the person is charged with something - assault, "brandishing" a firearm, etc. Once you get a gun in your hand, as opposed to in a holster, you have made it so you can shoot someone faster than they can react.

 

[Drawdown]

1. He didn't "unload" into that guy.
2. He did not shoot because the guy opened the door. He fired because he saw the man was holding a pistol with his finger on the trigger. What rational reason would a person open the door to the police holding a pistol?

The guy wasn't thinking. The police had been told (possibly falsely) this was a violent situation.

There are times when a person should have a gun in their hand. Approaching police isn't one of those.

The man was moving the gun behind his back before the shots were fired. It probably didn't help any that the officers stood out of the way of the peephole so he couldn't see if they were cops or not.

 

[joko104]

It's America, and he's in his own home. He can have a gun if he wants. Exercising rights isn't excuse to be executed by the State.

The police ****ed up here, and there should be ramifications for ****ing up this badly.

Again, you are not accurate. He didn't just "own a gun." He has a pistol in his hand and in a public area specifically in response to the police.

I don't know the officers did **** up. We do not know the alternative that would have happened.

Didn't you claim the Missouri couple should be charged? They didn't shoot anyone and the guy was only holding a rifle, never pointing it at anyone. And he had a mob in front of him, not police who had announced their presence. Explain the distinction.

 

[Bum]

It's America, and he's in his own home. He can have a gun if he wants. Exercising rights isn't excuse to be executed by the State.

The police ****ed up here, and there should be ramifications for ****ing up this badly.

That right there.

 

[joko104]

The man was moving the gun behind his back before the shots were fired. It probably didn't help any that the officers stood out of the way of the peephole so he couldn't see if they were cops or not.

Stepping to the side of the door meant the officers were on alert. I know a deputy merely routinely serving a civil citation (notice of lawsuit) who was shot thru the door. He lived. He returned fire thru the door, hitting and killing the shooter. (I don't think that was correct as their could have been children behind that door.)

The officers were told this was a violent situation in the 911 call. A man opens the door with a pistol in his hand, finger on the trigger. That is a way to get shot by the police. There are inherent risks - legal and otherwise - putting a gun into your hand in relation to other people - and definitely towards the police.

Again, whoever made that call should be seriously questioned. Was this just calling the police on someone you don't like? A "swatting" type motive?

 

[joko104]

That right there.

This has nothing to do with the right to own and have guns. It has to do with surprising the police with a pistol in your hand at near point blank range in an unknown situation.

 

[Ikari]

Again, you are not accurate. He didn't just "own a gun." He has a pistol in his hand.

I don't know the officers did **** up. We do not know the alternative that would have happened.

Didn't you claim the Missouri couple should be charged? They didn't shoot anyone and the guy was only holding a rifle, never pointing it at anyone. And he had a mob in front of him, not police who had announced their presence. Explain the distinction.

I didn't claim they should be charged. Though it is reckless to point a gun at someone. This man never pointed his gun at the officer and was in the process of putting it down when he was summarily executed by the State.

 

[Bum]

This has nothing to do with the right to own and have guns. It has to do with surprising the police with a pistol in your hand at near point blank range in an unknown situation.

Wrong.

His home, his gun, his right.

Unless he pointed the firearm at the cop, there is NO. ****ing. excuse......

 

[Rogue Valley]

It seems to me the cops panicked and immediately opted for lethal force before it was clearly established that the gun owner presented a lethal threat.

This looks like a case of "better safe than sorry".

 

[Lutherf]

Usually, if a person is HOLDING a gun without clear justification in a public setting, the person is charged with something - assault, "brandishing" a firearm, etc. Once you get a gun in your hand, as opposed to in a holster, you have made it so you can shoot someone faster than they can react.

This guy wasn't in public. He was in his home. The cop, in my opinion, significantly overreacted and cost the victim his life. It wasn't murder by any stretch but I did see the resident going to his knees and did not see him make any aggressive move toward the cops. I don't know if the cop that pulled the trigger will get charged with anything but I think a real argument could be made that he DID NOT meet the standards for self defense and if he doesn't meet those standards then manslaughter would certainly be on the table.

If nothing else that cop needs to be pulled off the street and should look for a job that doesn't involve stress of any kind.

 

[joko104]

Wrong.

His home, his gun, his right.

Unless he pointed the firearm at the cop, there is NO. ****ing. excuse......

Many, many people have been prosecuted for brandishing a firearm by having it their hand. If the police waited until he pointed the gun, that police is shot and NOTHING and NO ONE could stop it.

He was not in his home. He stepped into a public area.

I despise people who claim no one - private citizen or police - have any right to defend themselves until they have been shot or stabbed - which is what you claim in the typical Democratic Party's "duty to allow yourself to be murdered" doctrine.

 

[Irredentist]

Can I take this as evidence that conservatives have finally started caring about excessive use of force by police officers? Or is it only when it's against white people?

 

[Lutherf]

Can I take this as evidence that conservatives have finally started caring about excessive use of force by police officers? Or is it only when it's against white people?

Go look through my history on the subject of use of force then get back to me with your next lame ass, passive aggressive, bull**** question.

 

[joko104]

This guy wasn't in public. He was in his home. The cop, in my opinion, significantly overreacted and cost the victim his life. It wasn't murder by any stretch but I did see the resident going to his knees and did not see him make any aggressive move toward the cops. I don't know if the cop that pulled the trigger will get charged with anything but I think a real argument could be made that he DID NOT meet the standards for self defense and if he doesn't meet those standards then manslaughter would certainly be on the table.

If nothing else that cop needs to be pulled off the street and should look for a job that doesn't involve stress of any kind.

I don't see him kneeling at all. I see him trying to hide his pistol behind his back.

What you just wrote is that anyone with a gun can murder you or anyone else - and you can't legally do anything until after they are already shooting you or others. Once a person points a gun at you - you live or die as they decide. What you want or do is 100% irrelevant to anything. There is nothing you can do.

Hollywood cop shows are not reality when it comes to shooting. People who believe Hollywood is reality actually believe you can INSTANTANEOUSLY evaluate a situation and person, send the nerve signal thru their body, fire and shoot - all in 0.00000000000001 seconds - and then 0.000000001 seconds later the other person is dead and can't harm you.

That is before you get to the "startle" and fear factor.

Too bad police are human, huh.

 

[Irredentist]

Go look through my history on the subject of use of force then get back to me with your next lame ass, passive aggressive, bull**** question.

Strange, I've never seen you start any discussions like this about black people shot by the police.

 

[Paradoxical]

That cop should be fired and face repercussions for having shot a citizen in that circumstance. Being a cop isn't license to unload as soon as a door is opened.

There would have been major riots if this guy was black.

 

[Bum]

Many, many people have been prosecuted for brandishing a firearm by having it their hand. If the police waited until he pointed the gun, that police is shot and NOTHING and NO ONE could stop it.

He was not in his home. He stepped into a public area.

I despise people who claim no one - private citizen or police - have any right to defend themselves until they have been shot or stabbed - which is what you claim in the typical Democratic Party's "duty to allow yourself to be murdered" doctrine.

What I "claim" has nothing to do with politics...so you can put that narrative back into whatever hole it came out of.

If I answer the door with a firearm, and walk out of my door into a public setting without pointing that firearm at anyone, its hardly brandishing....Arizona is an open carry state with no requirement for a permit.