Perhaps the Europeans had it right.

[Torus34]

And when has "funding a strong military" ever avoided a war between two countries?

Never, me-thinks ...

PS: The problem with modern-warfare (alla Putin) is that those who make-war do so without committing their own children to the task of conducting it.

Hi, Lafayette!

It was in the late feudal period, as I remember, that the leaders of countries adopted the procedure of sending generals to lead their armies while they stayed safely at home. That technique has not changed down through the centuries which followed.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[Torus34]

I think most of us Europeans would be happier spending more on our defence needs. Putin put a great deal of effort into European politicians that wanted to cut defence or even the idea of an EU military force.
We now see the worth of Russian promises to smaller neighbours so hopefully the movement towards an integrated and powerful European military will really move forward after this.

Hi, Infinite Chaos!

Though it has gotten little mention, a check of the Budapest Memorandum*, in particular Section 2, will provide information on the trust to be placed in Russian statements.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

* Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucle...ruggled,assurances of the Budapest Memorandum.

 

[Torus34]

SUCH INANE STUPIDITY



What you fail to understand is that the Russian Army at present is fighting a war that most soldiers would prefer to avoid.

Which is why Putin is changing tactics. He now really-'n-truly wants a negotiated settlement. Which will likely include the parts of the Ukraine that speak Russian and wish to be Russian. (If that is their foolish notion of a "better life".)

And that is what is going to happen along with one more important qualification. That is, the Ukraine will ask (inevitably) and likely obtain admission to either NATO or the European Union. Which will change the complexity of the matter. Meaning this: Should the Ukraine inevitably become a member of the EU, then likely also NATO.

Which will mean (upon implementation) that a NATO nation borders on Russia. Which should upset the class of Russians presently running the country (on an historical moneyed boondoggle).

Putin & Co are quite likely to detest such a happening. But, after all, they started this war. They could still negotiate the separation of certain parts of the Russian-speaking Ukraine. But not one kilometer more.

Moreover, why any Ukrainian would want to become a member of a Toxic-State like Russia today is beyond comprehension - but if that is what they want, then give it to them! (See map of Russian-speaking Ukraine here.)

Such inane stoopidity deserves what it gets - a Russia run by the super-rich. If that factor cannot spark an internal revolution in Russia then nothing can ... !

Hi, Lafayette!

I'm not sure why you think I fail to understand obvious things. I'll not respond further to you on this thread.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[PeteEU]

I think most of us Europeans would be happier spending more on our defence needs.

Yes, if that spending was logical. The 2% of GDP goal is idiotic. That Germany will now expand its military worries me due to the historical issues and the fact the rise of far right aka Nazi ideology in Germany again. It is not long ago, that the elite German military special forces unit was disbanded because it was infiltrated by Neo Nazi scum.

Putin put a great deal of effort into European politicians that wanted to cut defence or even the idea of an EU military force.

Who? As far as I know, Putin has been supporting far right wackos almost exclusively to split up the EU and/or countries and has never really been focused on lowering defence spending. The reason is simple... Countries in Europe have never wanted to spend more on the military than needed as they have to justify said spending to the voters and that gets harder and harder. And the Russian support for the UK tory party to split from the EU goes against the idea, since the Tories have always wanted to spend more on the military despite the UK not being able to afford a large military anymore.

We now see the worth of Russian promises to smaller neighbours so hopefully the movement towards an integrated and powerful European military will really move forward after this.

People forget that continental Europe has more troops, tanks and planes (and ships) than Russia alone. Hell France alone almost has more than Russia.

There has never really been any threat against "Europe" by the Russians and Ukraine proves it. Their military is not as capable as the pro military crowd has been pushing for decades. The Russians are getting defeated by hobby drones and citizens militia in Ukraine (yes it is an over simplified view, but it proves a point). That the Russian military has massive logistic problems after going only 30 km or so into Ukraine, shows a problem with the Russian military that makes it impossible for it to do anything against Western Europe or NATO. How on earth would the Russian military be able to do the 1000+ km to Berlin? Impossible with their current logistics nightmare.

Now that does not mean we should take our foot off the speeder and not "rearm". The extra military spending in Europe should be thrown into expensive useless military equipment, but stuff we need. Dump the F35 for example. That would save billions that could be put into transport planes (which are badly needed) and almost as capable, but cheaper fighter jets.

But most importantly.. we need to stop being dragged into Americas overseas wars.... enough is enough.

 

[Torus34]

@PeteEU

Thank you for adding a comment from the European viewpoint!

We in the United States of America remain in Denmark's debt for Mr. Victor Borge!

Regards, stay safe 'n well . . . 'n Russian-free.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Such inane stoopidity deserves what it gets - a Russia run by the super-rich. If that factor cannot spark an internal revolution in Russia then nothing can ... !

Sounds very similar to the USA actually.

 

[Tangmo]

And when has "funding a strong military" ever avoided a war between two countries?

Never, me-thinks ...

The Cold War, 1947-91. That's a long time of peace in historically war crazy Europe.

It's the post CW multipolar free for all that produced Russia in Ukraine. Sixteen years of Merkel turning the German military into an idle junkyard is another factor that produced Ukraine.

When there are political leaders such as Chamberlain in Munich 1938 and as we see in Ukraine, German leaders named Schroeder and Merkel, war is inevitable. This is regardless of budget and overall force strength either way.

Kim Jong Un isn't going to invade South Korea either cause he knows he'll get smashed by the US 8th Army and 7th Air Force in SK, at Guam and to include the USN 7th Fleet in Japan.

Taiwan has been mass producing home made offensive missiles to level the eastern mainland China if it tries to invade which has sent the DictatorTyrants in Beijing led by the Mao ideologue Xi Jinpingpong back to the drawing board.

It's useful at a minimum to democracies and global stability, this business of "funding a strong military."

 

[Tangmo]

SUCH INANE STUPIDITY

Such inane stoopidity deserves what it gets - a Russia run by the super-rich. If that factor cannot spark an internal revolution in Russia then nothing can ... !

Sounds very similar to the USA actually.

China's Gini Coefficient is absolutely criminal.

 

[Tangmo]

This luvy-dovy thread reminds me of the one about the Frenchman and the Russian.

The Frenchy says, “I take the bus to work but when I travel around Europe I use my Peugeot.” The Russky replies, “We too have a wonderful system of public transportation but when we go to Europe we go in tanks.”

Indeed, we recall that it was in 1956 when the Russian Soviet Union ordered tanks into Budapest to crush the anti-Soviet Hungarian Revolution, and reappeared in 1968 when the Kremlin sent tanks into Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring.

If Putin has shown us anything however, it is that we cannot believe the present and all that matters for Russia’s future is its past. The same is true indeed for the Russia Huggers who hang on in Germany, ie, the DP Bundesgang.

 

[Aristaeus]

View attachment 67382871​

Without government, you get anarchy and survival of the fittest. Government gives us many good things that wouldn't exist without it. At it's best, it is a force for good.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Yes, if that spending was logical. The 2% of GDP goal is idiotic. That Germany will now expand its military worries me due to the historical issues and the fact the rise of far right aka Nazi ideology in Germany again. It is not long ago, that the elite German military special forces unit was disbanded because it was infiltrated by Neo Nazi scum.

Yes, because an EU army is all about Far Right Germans in the German military.

Who? As far as I know, Putin has been supporting far right wackos almost exclusively to split up the EU and/or countries and has never really been focused on lowering defence spending.

Marine Le Pen / Orban / Wilders / Farage / Trump = all these people have been hostile to the EU and anything the EU does.

People forget that continental Europe has more troops, tanks and planes (and ships) than Russia alone.

But nowhere near enough nukes to threaten Russia with. Ukraine gave hers up and look where she is now?

 

[PeteEU]

Yes, because an EU army is all about Far Right Germans in the German military.

Never said it was. I said that the German military had top elite unit that was disbanded because of far right infiltration.

Marine Le Pen / Orban / Wilders / Farage / Trump = all these people have been hostile to the EU and anything the EU does.

Yes but few of those are actually in any sort of political power. Only Orban and Trump (was). They were also only supported by Putin to disrupt politics in said countries, nothing else. If it was far left groups he could support, then he would have.

Hell Le Pen cant stand Farage and Wilders hates them both. They could not even unite in the EU parliament. Just saying.

But nowhere near enough nukes to threaten Russia with. Ukraine gave hers up and look where she is now?

And so what? No civilized nation would use nukes... not even tactical ones. The consequences would be so bad, that it cant be justified. Use nukes and both sides lose a war.. simple as that. Look at this conflict in Ukraine. Hundreds of Russian troops have been sent back to Russia with acute radiation poisoning after they dug trenches in a highly contaminated part of Chernobyl. If nukes were used, then that would be everywhere.. end of life in Europe if not the world.

 

[psikeyhackr]

.Meanwhile, the citizens of the NATO countries have had monies available for their citizens which would have gone to funding an excessively strong military.

That is the problem with preparing for war. How do you know how good or bad your potential enemy is?

Apparently Putin didn't know how bad the Russian army was.

 

[german hick]

I said that the German military had top elite unit that was disbanded because of far right infiltration.

beneath the topic: to be honest that wasn´t only a bad sign for me. Doesn´t it show that democratic control works?

 

[PeteEU]

beneath the topic: to be honest that wasn´t only a bad sign for me. Doesn´t it show that democratic control works?

Yes.. for now in Germany. That same control certainly has not worked in Ukraine. It has also not worked very well in the US. In France the voters have so far kept the far right at bay, by voting for the right or left wing depending on who could beat Le Pen. The democratic control has failed in Hungary.. the list goes on and on.

 

[Schrott]

Yes.. for now in Germany. That same control certainly has not worked in Ukraine. It has also not worked very well in the US. In France the voters have so far kept the far right at bay, by voting for the right or left wing depending on who could beat Le Pen. The democratic control has failed in Hungary.. the list goes on and on.

It was only 1 group of the KSK that was disbanded. The KSK as such still exists.
It shows if you neglect your military, which includes oversight and quality NCOs and officers, then you open the doors for extremists.

If you want good to very good personnel, you have to spent money, lots of money in wages and proper training and proper oversight.

 

[PeteEU]

It was only 1 group of the KSK that was disbanded. The KSK as such still exists.

For now. The other units are still under investigation and the German military leadership have said they could close them all.

It shows if you neglect your military, which includes oversight and quality NCOs and officers, then you open the doors for extremists.

Yes.

If you want good to very good personnel, you have to spent money, lots of money in wages and proper training and proper oversight.

Yes and no. Inflitration is a problem that spending has no influence on. And that is the problem with far right extremists, as their goal is political power and not monetary rewards.

Remember the Azov Battalion was started by far right Neo Nazi football hooligans that saw an opportunity to gain political power in the chaos of civil strife.

 

[Schrott]

For now. The other units are still under investigation and the German military leadership have said they could close them all.



Yes.

Yes and no. Inflitration is a problem that spending has no influence on. And that is the problem with far right extremists, as their goal is political power and not monetary rewards.

Remember the Azov Battalion was started by far right Neo Nazi football hooligans that saw an opportunity to gain political power in the chaos of civil strife.

Infiltration, ok, but I think you overblow the situation in the KSK.
The German army has been badly neglected for over 2 decades, financial and political. It is my opinion to have a well equipped, material and personnel, small Army, which costs more than 1.3% GDP, or have none at all. Why spent 40-50 billion each year if that means the readiness status can only be around 50%. Total waste of money.
Reforms the Bundeswehr needs can not be done, because there is not enough money for those reforms.
How can it be, that Germany produces one of the finest tanks, sells it world wide and the Bundeswehr has half of its 320 tanks sitting in the shop can not be fixed, because there are no spare parts. It does not a warehouse for tank spare parts. Same for its U-Boots1/3 or 1/2 half of them stay in port, no spare parts. You can take every branch of the Bundeswehr, same problem. Housing of the soldiers, barracks, so run down, molt, broken appliances and sanitation.
Germany does not need the 1000 tank Cold War army, but 400, considering a readiness status of 80% =320.
Bundeswehr trains Belgium tankers, with Bundeswehr tanks. It actually can not afford that. It wears out its tanks for which they have not enough spare parts. A NATO mission here, a NATO mission there, which cost 100s of millions, which have to be cut out of other programs, less spare parts for example or ammo. If Germany had at the present a 80% readiness status of its army, all branches, it would have quiet a army.
But 50% at the best makes it a junkyard and a waste of money.

 

[PeteEU]

Infiltration, ok, but I think you overblow the situation in the KSK.
The German army has been badly neglected for over 2 decades, financial and political. It is my opinion to have a well equipped, material and personnel, small Army, which costs more than 1.3% GDP, or have none at all. Why spent 40-50 billion each year if that means the readiness status can only be around 50%. Total waste of money.
Reforms the Bundeswehr needs can not be done, because there is not enough money for those reforms.
How can it be, that Germany produces one of the finest tanks, sells it world wide and the Bundeswehr has half of its 320 tanks sitting in the shop can not be fixed, because there are no spare parts. It does not a warehouse for tank spare parts. Same for its U-Boots1/3 or 1/2 half of them stay in port, no spare parts. You can take every branch of the Bundeswehr, same problem. Housing of the soldiers, barracks, so run down, molt, broken appliances and sanitation.
Germany does not need the 1000 tank Cold War army, but 400, considering a readiness status of 80% =320.
Bundeswehr trains Belgium tankers, with Bundeswehr tanks. It actually can not afford that. It wears out its tanks for which they have not enough spare parts. A NATO mission here, a NATO mission there, which cost 100s of millions, which have to be cut out of other programs, less spare parts for example or ammo. If Germany had at the present a 80% readiness status of its army, all branches, it would have quiet a army.
But 50% at the best makes it a junkyard and a waste of money.

Irrelevant. Doubt it is true either about the German military readiness. We would have heard about it a long time ago....not easy to hide such things.

Point is, neo Nazi scum can play the long game and if we are not on our toes, then suddenly we are watching mass execution of a minority.

 

[Schrott]

Irrelevant. Doubt it is true either about the German military readiness. We would have heard about it a long time ago....not easy to hide such things.

Point is, neo Nazi scum can play the long game and if we are not on our toes, then suddenly we are watching mass execution of a minority.

You have not heard it.
The dismal condition of the Bundeswehr has been a on going debate in Germany for the last 10 years and has been a great concern of NATO.

 

[Peter]

Evidently, one European member of NATO thinks more military spending...albeit, after Russia invaded...is a good thing to do.

Germany Building Up Military Following Russian Invasion, Defense Stocks Surge – [your]NEWS

Stock prices of defense companies rose after German Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced that his country would raise military spending, and build up its forces and capabilities, as a response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

yournews.com

The UK has also announced a large spending increase on the military.

UK moves to become third-biggest global defence spender, new report states

According to a new International Institute for Strategic Studies report, the UK's 2021 defence budget was $71.6bn.

www.forces.net

 

[Tangmo]

Yes, because an EU army is all about Far Right Germans in the German military.

No because the Greens and Free Democrats in power are especially attuned to that. Each of 'em favors an EU Army force independent of and in addition to NATO, which leaves Russians holding their dicks, same as now in Ukraine. Ukraine armed forces are btw the nastiest fighting force in Europe today and would be most welcomed into an EU Army.

Plus the US has nearly 50,000 forces on an active duty occupation in Germany. Yes, occupation, if that might be what it could ever come to. Trust me, Americans remember too. There's every reason for Americans to remember.

US is beefing up its forces in Germany's neighboring countries, Poland and the Baltics in particular. Plus Sweden and probably Finland are verging on same day NATO membership, ie, apply after breakfast and be a member when you sit down to dinner.

 

[PeteEU]

The UK has also announced a large spending increase on the military.

UK moves to become third-biggest global defence spender, new report states

According to a new International Institute for Strategic Studies report, the UK's 2021 defence budget was $71.6bn.

www.forces.net

Good luck in finding money for that....

 

[Peter]

Good luck in finding money for that....

The UK economy is doing pretty well considering the pandemic.
Public borrowing is lower than forecast just 9 months ago and unemployment is looking good.

It could always be better but tax income is at record levels and it's not all doom and gloom which is nice.

 

[Torus34]

That is the problem with preparing for war. How do you know how good or bad your potential enemy is?

Apparently Putin didn't know how bad the Russian army was.

Hi, psikeyhackr!

That's what gives rise to governmental 'intelligence' agencies, not to mention satellite surveillance capabilities. Then there's the interplay between those agencies, munitions and allied industries and legislators. Not to mention . . . .

Regards, stay safe 'n well.