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People that support stringent voting laws, why, exactly?

LarryBird

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First, obviously elections need to be fair or there's no point in having them. So no double voting, no impersonating someone else, no voting if you're not eligible, etc. Hopefully we all agree on that.

That said, if reasonable precautions are put in place to prevent those things, why NOT make it easier for eligible voters to vote? Why not have a national holiday when there's a federal election? Why not send all eligible voters a mail in ballot and have drop boxes located throughout a state? Do you think states are incapable of telling if someone has voted twice?
 

Rogue Valley

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First, obviously elections need to be fair or there's no point in having them. So no double voting, no impersonating someone else, no voting if you're not eligible, etc. Hopefully we all agree on that.

That said, if reasonable precautions are put in place to prevent those things, why NOT make it easier for eligible voters to vote? Why not have a national holiday when there's a federal election? Why not send all eligible voters a mail in ballot and have drop boxes located throughout a state? Do you think states are incapable of telling if someone has voted twice?

5 states utilize mail-in balloting exclusively (Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah, Washington). Voter fraud is very rare as verification's are in place to thwart cheating.

22 other states permit some forms of mail-in voting. During a pandemic, mail-in voting is the safest method.

In a nutshell, elements of the GOP, including president Trump, believe mail-in voting favors the Democrats. Studies have shown that this is not the case.
 

haymarket

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First, obviously elections need to be fair or there's no point in having them. So no double voting, no impersonating someone else, no voting if you're not eligible, etc. Hopefully we all agree on that.

That said, if reasonable precautions are put in place to prevent those things, why NOT make it easier for eligible voters to vote? Why not have a national holiday when there's a federal election? Why not send all eligible voters a mail in ballot and have drop boxes located throughout a state? Do you think states are incapable of telling if someone has voted twice?

Great screen name. Welcome.
 

Mycroft

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First, obviously elections need to be fair or there's no point in having them. So no double voting, no impersonating someone else, no voting if you're not eligible, etc. Hopefully we all agree on that.

That said, if reasonable precautions are put in place to prevent those things, why NOT make it easier for eligible voters to vote? Why not have a national holiday when there's a federal election? Why not send all eligible voters a mail in ballot and have drop boxes located throughout a state? Do you think states are incapable of telling if someone has voted twice?

How many states, that do not already have established mail in voting, do you think have...

1. The reasonable precautions put in place to prevent those things you spoke of in your second sentence?

2. The procedures that took other states up to seven years to develop?

3. The time to put those procedures in place before this year's election?

Tell me...how many of those states that haven't had mail in voting for years will be counting ballots that arrive days or weeks AFTER election day? How many of those states will allow a "box of ballots" that are "discovered" in a mail room somewhere?

Or tell me...how many states have a LAW that says that any ballot that comes in after 7:30pm on election night...the same time the walk-in polls close...will not be counted?

You see, the problem isn't that mail-in voting is bad. It's not. The problem is that so many states haven't set up the laws, the procedures and the process to make mail-in voting safe and secure...and they don't have the time to do it in less than 3 months.
 

eman623

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We should not be mailing out ballots to anyone who did not ask for one. That encourages fraud and vote harvesting (which is amazingly legal in one-party Corruptifornia now)
 

LarryBird

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You see, the problem isn't that mail-in voting is bad. It's not. The problem is that so many states haven't set up the laws, the procedures and the process to make mail-in voting safe and secure...and they don't have the time to do it in less than 3 months.

My bad. I should have clarified that, although the upcoming election is certainly a factor in my posting of this thread, I'm not talking about specifically implementing relaxed procedures for this upcoming election. I'm talking about philosophically, in general, for all elections, not just this one.
 

BlueTex

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How many states, that do not already have established mail in voting, do you think have...

1. The reasonable precautions put in place to prevent those things you spoke of in your second sentence?

2. The procedures that took other states up to seven years to develop?

3. The time to put those procedures in place before this year's election?

Tell me...how many of those states that haven't had mail in voting for years will be counting ballots that arrive days or weeks AFTER election day? How many of those states will allow a "box of ballots" that are "discovered" in a mail room somewhere?

Or tell me...how many states have a LAW that says that any ballot that comes in after 7:30pm on election night...the same time the walk-in polls close...will not be counted?

You see, the problem isn't that mail-in voting is bad. It's not. The problem is that so many states haven't set up the laws, the procedures and the process to make mail-in voting safe and secure...and they don't have the time to do it in less than 3 months.

Complete BS... EVERY state has had to comply with the Military and Overseas Voter Empowerment (MOVE) Act since 2010 (thanks Obama). For the math challenged, that's 10 years.

Every procedure needed to expand this to every voter is already in place.
 

Mycroft

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My bad. I should have clarified that, although the upcoming election is certainly a factor in my posting of this thread, I'm not talking about specifically implementing relaxed procedures for this upcoming election. I'm talking about philosophically, in general, for all elections, not just this one.

Fair enough.

I basically agree with you. I live in Colorado. We've had mail in voting for years. It works well. I think other states should implement it, too...IF THEY WANT TO. And if they do, then they should do the work to make the system work.
 

Mycroft

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Complete BS... EVERY state has had to comply with the Military and Overseas Voter Empowerment (MOVE) Act since 2010 (thanks Obama). For the math challenged, that's 10 years.

Every procedure needed to expand this to every voter is already in place.

That act doesn't address the issues I raised. Besides, the scale of military and overseas voters as opposed to EVERY voter in the entire US...well, it doesn't even compare.
 

LarryBird

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We should not be mailing out ballots to anyone who did not ask for one. That encourages fraud and vote harvesting (which is amazingly legal in one-party Corruptifornia now)

I don't know all the specifics of California's laws and procedures.

But what about if:
1) there are authentication mechanisms in place like, you need a personal PIN and your SSN to authenticate your ballot
2) the state maintains an online tool where you can log in with your multi factor authentication and track the status of your ballot, see who you voted for, etc
3) any voter can contest their recorded vote within a day or two of the election, in which case it turns into a provisional vote and is not included in the vote total until the conflict is resolved

Wouldn't that deal with the issues you raise? If you get a PIN (like everyone does when they get a debit card from their bank), and someone physically intercepts your mail in ballot, they still have to know both your PIN and SSN to authenticate it. If they do you've got bigger problems than your vote getting hijacked.

And with ballot harvesting, if you can log in and check that your vote has been counted as you intended to cast it, doesn't that solve any issues related to that practice? If the actual voter can verify that their ballot was cast correctly, what does it matter who drops it off?
 

eman623

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I don't know all the specifics of California's laws and procedures.

But what about if:
1) there are authentication mechanisms in place like, you need a personal PIN and your SSN to authenticate your ballot
2) the state maintains an online tool where you can log in with your multi factor authentication and track the status of your ballot, see who you voted for, etc
3) any voter can contest their recorded vote within a day or two of the election, in which case it turns into a provisional vote and is not included in the vote total until the conflict is resolved

Wouldn't that deal with the issues you raise? If you get a PIN (like everyone does when they get a debit card from their bank), and someone physically intercepts your mail in ballot, they still have to know both your PIN and SSN to authenticate it. If they do you've got bigger problems than your vote getting hijacked.

And with ballot harvesting, if you can log in and check that your vote has been counted as you intended to cast it, doesn't that solve any issues related to that practice? If the actual voter can verify that their ballot was cast correctly, what does it matter who drops it off?

Do you think we can put all of that in place in 2 months with 100% coverage? I don't. And not everyone has internet, or even an SSN. Also, online voting would be susceptible to hacking by Russia and China.

The problem with vote harvesting is that once the political operative has the ballot he can modify it, or simply fail to deliver those ballots from likely voters of the opposition party. Basically the party that has the best organization, not the most votes, wins.
 

LarryBird

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Do you think we can put all of that in place in 2 months with 100% coverage? I don't.

My bad. I should have clarified that, although the upcoming election is certainly a factor in my posting of this thread, I'm not talking about specifically implementing relaxed procedures for this upcoming election. I'm talking about philosophically, in general, for all elections, not just this one.

Yeah the internet access thing is definitely an issue (and I think it should be a bigger political issue both for poor urban people and rural people).

But lots of the same kind of thing can be done over the phone. Doesn't have to be SSN either.
 

eman623

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Yeah the internet access thing is definitely an issue (and I think it should be a bigger political issue both for poor urban people and rural people).

But lots of the same kind of thing can be done over the phone. Doesn't have to be SSN either.

I tend to agree. In principle I think while online voting is not a panacea, it could work for many. You can fill out your census form online, or by mail. Why not voting?

But we just don't have enough time to try to set up and implement experimental new untested voting methods right now.
 

LarryBird

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And to be clear I'm not talking about online voting, which would be sending data electronically with no paper trail. That's a well established security risk.

I'm talking about having a physical ballot either submitted in person or via mail, and then that is recorded in a secure electronic form while retaining the physical original ballot. Then the voter can authenticate themselves and see their ballot or selections via an online tool, or using the same authentication information call a number and get an automated response. And if there is ever any conflict, you go to the physical ballot, which is stored in a secure location, the same as any company has a way of securely storing vital legal documents and such.
 

HonestJoe

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That said, if reasonable precautions are put in place to prevent those things, why NOT make it easier for eligible voters to vote?
Voting is an important decision so I'd argue that there is such a thing as making it to easy.

Why not have a national holiday when there's a federal election?
Because it'd be expensive, wouldn't help a lot of people and is totally unnecessary.

Why not send all eligible voters a mail in ballot and have drop boxes located throughout a state?
Again, that is unnecessary. Why not just make sure there are enough polling places open long enough on election day and save mail-in voting for those who really need it, allowing the necessary security measures to be limited and focused?
 

HonestJoe

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2) the state maintains an online tool where you can log in with your multi factor authentication and track the status of your ballot, see who you voted for, etc
That is a terrible idea. Creating a database linking individuals to their vote and then putting it online!?! That is the exact opposite of the private and anonymous principles behind modern elections.
 

BlueTex

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Voting is an important decision so I'd argue that there is such a thing as making it to easy.

Given most ballots contain all kinds of offices and sometimes other propositions, is it easier to thoughtfully research and evaluate candidates and propositions at home or while standing in a voting booth trying to remember who is the best candidate for railroad commissioner?
 

BlueTex

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That is a terrible idea. Creating a database linking individuals to their vote and then putting it online!?! That is the exact opposite of the private and anonymous principles behind modern elections.

This has been in place for military and overseas voters for 10 years. It tracks your ballot, not how you voted.
 

marke

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First, obviously elections need to be fair or there's no point in having them. So no double voting, no impersonating someone else, no voting if you're not eligible, etc. Hopefully we all agree on that.

That said, if reasonable precautions are put in place to prevent those things, why NOT make it easier for eligible voters to vote? Why not have a national holiday when there's a federal election? Why not send all eligible voters a mail in ballot and have drop boxes located throughout a state? Do you think states are incapable of telling if someone has voted twice?

Lawmakers understand the need to enact security measures to protect voting integrity but strangely encounter stiff resistance from opponents who don't want voters inconvenienced in any way. Soldiers risk their lives overseas to protect American freedoms but some lazy civilians cannot seem to be bothered with the inconvenience of voting securities.
 

LarryBird

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That is a terrible idea. Creating a database linking individuals to their vote and then putting it online!?! That is the exact opposite of the private and anonymous principles behind modern elections.

There's ways to do it such that a person is not identified if the database that the tool queries is compromised.

For example lots of sites don't store your actual password in a database. They take the password you create, run it through a hashing algorithm, then store the hash. The hash is one way, so (at least in theory) it's impossible to get the initial value from the hash. The system takes whatever a person inputs, runs that through the algorithm, and then compares the resulting value to the value that was created when the password was run through the algo. If they match, you have the right password.

So in that way, you could store an image of a ballot online along with a corresponding hash value, and have that accessible to the public. In a secure location you could have a second air gapped system which actually matches the hash to a person's personal information.
 

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First, obviously elections need to be fair or there's no point in having them. So no double voting, no impersonating someone else, no voting if you're not eligible, etc. Hopefully we all agree on that.

That said, if reasonable precautions are put in place to prevent those things, why NOT make it easier for eligible voters to vote? Why not have a national holiday when there's a federal election? Why not send all eligible voters a mail in ballot and have drop boxes located throughout a state? Do you think states are incapable of telling if someone has voted twice?

so i mail you a ballot....

only your 78, are starting to suffer from dementia, and instead of even asking you how YOU want to vote, you daughter or granddaughter fills it out and sends it in because EVERY VOTE COUNTS....

if you dont think this happens across the country, you are naive....how many times? who knows....but should it happen?

in homes, nursing homes, retirement communities, etc

I want every voter to have a say in the elections...they get ONE VOTE

I want their vote counted right along with everyone elses.....

ANd i know we can do it safely if the damn governors and feds could get their **** together

Extend the voting time to two weeks....have people come in throughout that two weeks that way there are no LONG LINES, and no one has to be inconvenienced

Any volunteers that normally work that have preexisting conditions, we need to of course replace

Send actual voter workers to EVERY nursing home, retirement community, or place where the residents would have a tough time getting to a polling station....they can help the residents, and make sure they are actually voting themselves

This can be done....
 

LarryBird

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Lawmakers understand the need to enact security measures to protect voting integrity but strangely encounter stiff resistance from opponents who don't want voters inconvenienced in any way. Soldiers risk their lives overseas to protect American freedoms but some lazy civilians cannot seem to be bothered with the inconvenience of voting securities.

But people have all kinds of different situations, right? Like, if you have no kids, a job you can do from home, flexible hours, a car, a printer, and you live near somewhere that renews your id and/or processes your absentee ballot, it's not real hard for you to make a copy of your id, print out an absentee ballot application, fill it out, buy stamps or envelopes if you don't have them on hand, or physically get yourself to your polling place if voting in person.

On the other hand, if you don't have a car, don't have a printer, have a job where you are on call or have a highly variable schedule, have multiple kids, have a sick parent that you are the caregiver for, or any of a thousand other issues, it gets a lot harder. Right?

Doesn't everyone who is eligible have an equal right to vote? Why should one person have to expend 10 times the effort that another person does? Doesn't that skew elections and therefore policy toward people that are already in a good position, in effect making the rich richer and the poor poorer? Is that how you think our political system and society should work?
 

LarryBird

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so i mail you a ballot....

only your 78, are starting to suffer from dementia, and instead of even asking you how YOU want to vote, you daughter or granddaughter fills it out and sends it in because EVERY VOTE COUNTS....

if you dont think this happens across the country, you are naive....how many times? who knows....but should it happen?

in homes, nursing homes, retirement communities, etc

I want every voter to have a say in the elections...they get ONE VOTE

I want their vote counted right along with everyone elses.....

ANd i know we can do it safely if the damn governors and feds could get their **** together

Extend the voting time to two weeks....have people come in throughout that two weeks that way there are no LONG LINES, and no one has to be inconvenienced

Any volunteers that normally work that have preexisting conditions, we need to of course replace

Send actual voter workers to EVERY nursing home, retirement community, or place where the residents would have a tough time getting to a polling station....they can help the residents, and make sure they are actually voting themselves

This can be done....

Yeah I don't have a problem with a lot of that.

I don't really know what the right answer is with your old person with dementia example (you picked 78 speficially, did ya? :mrgreen:).

I know personally several people that I'm pretty sure would say something like "whatever you think is best is fine with me", because they've said the same about other stuff that they don't fully understand, like technology stuff.

In that case, if the voter themselves gives it their blessing, is that the same as them voting? Or is their trusted person voting twice? I don't really know.

I think I would lean towards if that happens, ok, it's worth it if that happens 10 times but you get 1000 more eligible lucid voters to participate because you've lowered their barrier to participation.
 

BlueTex

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Lawmakers understand the need to enact security measures to protect voting integrity but strangely encounter stiff resistance from opponents who don't want voters inconvenienced in any way. Soldiers risk their lives overseas to protect American freedoms but some lazy civilians cannot seem to be bothered with the inconvenience of voting securities.

Because they are solutions in search of a problem and OFTEN not really about voting security at all.
 

marke

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But people have all kinds of different situations, right? Like, if you have no kids, a job you can do from home, flexible hours, a car, a printer, and you live near somewhere that renews your id and/or processes your absentee ballot, it's not real hard for you to make a copy of your id, print out an absentee ballot application, fill it out, buy stamps or envelopes if you don't have them on hand, or physically get yourself to your polling place if voting in person.

On the other hand, if you don't have a car, don't have a printer, have a job where you are on call or have a highly variable schedule, have multiple kids, have a sick parent that you are the caregiver for, or any of a thousand other issues, it gets a lot harder. Right?

Doesn't everyone who is eligible have an equal right to vote? Why should one person have to expend 10 times the effort that another person does? Doesn't that skew elections and therefore policy toward people that are already in a good position, in effect making the rich richer and the poor poorer? Is that how you think our political system and society should work?

Don't Americans have a right to secure the voting process against fraud? Of course and that should be done. If some voters have a problem dealing with various issues related to voting that should not be used as an excuse to remove all security measures whatsoever, or to resist establishing needed measures to secure the voting process. Jimmy Carter said 15 years ago that we should make voter ID a requirement to vote. He recommended that based upon the fraud h uncovered then and the importance of securing our elections is just as important today as it was then.

Election Security Debate Heats Up Over Mail-In Ballots

Experts say voting-by-mail is fraught with problems. That method of voting gives wrongdoers greater opportunities for fraud compared to in-person balloting, they say.

The bipartisan Commission on Federal Election Reform, chaired by former President Jimmy Carter and former Secretary of State James A. Baker III, found in 2005 that “absentee ballots remain the largest source of potential voter fraud” and that “vote-buying schemes are far more difficult to detect when citizens vote by mail.”

 
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