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"People in the Dark Shadows"

You are right, I did respond. i thought maybe you might elevate your language - never debated you before that I can remember - but you didn't. You incorporated hyperbole and insults to vent, not debate. Restraint is paramount to civil discussion, albeit sometimes it's hard. I should hope you'd give it some thought. As far as your continued insults and supremely arrogant, contemptuous, ignorant speculations about my motives, I can only smile, and think that you have a lot to learn, Lad. Knock off the insults and perhaps we'll meet again on better terms. Thanks!!

Well its good you were able to get off your fainting couch to respond again. And "flushing their values down the toilet" is neither hyperbole nor insult. It is simply a fact. Even though I consider your rambling tangents to be rude and ignoring the clear statement " I'm talking about his normal budgets" to be dishonest, I didnt use it as an excuse to not respond. Anyhoo, here's a short list of things conservatives vehemently (did you google this word yet?) accused President Obama and others of but say nothing when Trump actually does it.

deficits, adultery, playing golf, shredding the rule of law, stimulus, "undermining our allies, embolden our enemies", healthcare, executive orders, acting presidential, bailouts, draft dodging and "death panels".
 
“The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous. In consequence of these facts, all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand by your slogan.”
― Adolf Hitler

And how did that work out for Hitler? I can see Hitler in Donald Trump. The difference is Hitler was a very intelligent dictatorial maniac. Trump is a 5th grade wannabe dictator. No comparison.
 
I’m afraid I don’t agree with this “both sides” argument. The article I linked details 100 EPA regulations Obama introduced that the Republicans have removed or are trying to remove. The regulations relate to clean air and water and to toxic chemicals. Others concern reducing CO emissions, protections for wetlands and limits on drilling and extraction. The Republicans are actively harming the environment. The Democrats may not be achieving as much as you personally desire but they are going to do even less if they’re not in power. Getting Trump out of the White House is imperative for anyone who cares about the environment and the only was to do that is to vote for Biden.

Let me put it this way: at this juncture no environmental protective legislation will stick if it's not adamantly supported, and we'll need a third party to pressure the existing two. If you recall, the Clean Water Act of 1972 got bipartisan support, was signed into law by Nixon and launched the Superfund of 1980 which was invaluable to the health of the environment. Reagan had just been elected in 1980, but the Superfund was really shaped - if I'm not mistaken - under Carter's tenure and was not undermined by the subsequent Republican administration or those on either side succeeding Reagan. The point that I'm making is that both Republicans and Democrats at that time could in fact work together and had commonality in goals that benefited the nation. We do not have that now. Democrats and Republicans are much more interested in petty accusations, discrediting each other with deceitful cherry picking and blatant, mutual disrespect. I don't care who passes what in this atmosphere - if anything - it will not last in a two party system if it's remotely significant. Thanks!!
 
We will get nowhere environmentally with either major party. Any substantive legislation sponsored by the Democrats has amounted to grand standing, because inevitably, interwoven in the not so fine print, is their big phony foot kicking the can down the road. If we want any serious attention paid to the environment's salvation, we better darn well support a third party, which will bring mainstream concerns to the fore and pressure the two presiding parties into forward thinking and more responsible conduct. Thanks!!

Yeah, that's what we've come to expect. One party makes progress on environmental goals, the other proudly tears that progress down and hires industry lobbyists to regulate industry, which means to let them loose with no restrictions, and it's BOTH SIDES!!

The way it works in the U.S. isn't through third parties but electing people who share your environmental concerns in one of the existing parties. There are more and more of them on the Democratic side, while the GOP at the elected level is roughly 100% committed to the idea that there aren't any environmental problems TO address. Democrats push solar and wind, Trump pushes the non-existent "clean coal," opening up the arctic, killing any restrictions on fracking, etc. but BOTH SIDES!!!

:roll:
 
Let me put it this way: at this juncture no environmental protective legislation will stick if it's not adamantly supported, and we'll need a third party to pressure the existing two.

Why is that? What is the magic of a third party? Do they wave a magic wand I've never seen? There's a large contingent of Democrats who share your environmental concerns. There is no contingent of Republicans in office that do. Why not elect more Democrats with good environmental positions? They can serve on committees where the work is done. Those Democrats that don't support that agenda get primaried and lose office. Republicans lose general elections. Put a price on environmental records, and politicians respond.

If you recall, the Clean Water Act of 1972 got bipartisan support, was signed into law by Nixon and launched the Superfund of 1980 which was invaluable to the health of the environment. Reagan had just been elected in 1980, but the Superfund was really shaped - if I'm not mistaken - under Carter's tenure and was not undermined by the subsequent Republican administration or those on either side succeeding Reagan. The point that I'm making is that both Republicans and Democrats at that time could in fact work together and had commonality in goals that benefited the nation. We do not have that now. Democrats and Republicans are much more interested in petty accusations, discrediting each other with deceitful cherry picking and blatant, mutual disrespect. I don't care who passes what in this atmosphere - if anything - it will not last in a two party system if it's remotely significant. Thanks!!

That's a good point. Republicans at one time supported environmental regulations, Democrats still do, but now the GOP oppose them, and it's the Democrats' fault, of course, that the GOP have gone full on slash and burn when it comes to environmental regs. BOTH SIDES!!!

Who cares which party controls the WH and Congress and regulators? There's no difference between slash and burn on one side, and on the other an environmental record that's far better than the GOP, moving inexorably in the right direction in policy and positions of elected Democrats, but not far enough for your preferences! So if you can't get all you want, then it doesn't matter! BOTH SIDES!!
 
And how did that work out for Hitler? I can see Hitler in Donald Trump. The difference is Hitler was a very intelligent dictatorial maniac. Trump is a 5th grade wannabe dictator. No comparison.

Tactics from the same page in the same book.
 
Why is that? What is the magic of a third party? Do they wave a magic wand I've never seen? There's a large contingent of Democrats who share your environmental concerns. There is no contingent of Republicans in office that do. Why not elect more Democrats with good environmental positions? They can serve on committees where the work is done. Those Democrats that don't support that agenda get primaried and lose office. Republicans lose general elections. Put a price on environmental records, and politicians respond.



That's a good point. Republicans at one time supported environmental regulations, Democrats still do, but now the GOP oppose them, and it's the Democrats' fault, of course, that the GOP have gone full on slash and burn when it comes to environmental regs. BOTH SIDES!!!

Who cares which party controls the WH and Congress and regulators? There's no difference between slash and burn on one side, and on the other an environmental record that's far better than the GOP, moving inexorably in the right direction in policy and positions of elected Democrats, but not far enough for your preferences! So if you can't get all you want, then it doesn't matter! BOTH SIDES!!

In my view, you're being too simplistic. I'll give you a small but significant example as to why. I assume you would consider Massachusetts a Democratic state, right?? Take a look:

In Cape Cod, a 2001 attempt to launch what would have been the U.S.'s first offshore wind farm was abandoned after a decade of lawsuits from local residents concerned about disrupting fishing patterns and coastal views. Anti-Wind Farm Activism Is Sweeping Europe—and the U.S. Could Be Next

I remember this well, and it was the "coastal views" that made up the majority of complaints. So. the "not in my backyard" folks prevailed, but a lot of those folks were wealthy and liberal.

"Cape Wind went up against the nearly unstoppable force of upper-class liberal NIMBYism and was defeated," Benson said.News - Controversial Cape Wind Project Terminated | Heartland Institute

This is the problem with elitism on yes, "both sides." Democrats are certainly not immune. The magic wand you reference may actually be within our grasp. Exposing corruption and wealth pandering at the expense of the people can only be done - as is common in Europe - with a multi-party approach. It reduces antagonism because people have a broader selection of parties to choose from that can align more realistically with their views. In other words, they have a voice. And most importantly, multi-party systems can keep each other "in check" so to speak, and have to work for compromise right from the get go, instead of all the bickering and time wasting that a petty two party system produces. If the environment is a mainstream concern, as another poster suggested, then voting for those that hold it dear is the best way to implement change and protect it. Thanks!!
 
In my view, you're being too simplistic. I'll give you a small but significant example as to why. I assume you would consider Massachusetts a Democratic state, right?? Take a look:

In Cape Cod, a 2001 attempt to launch what would have been the U.S.'s first offshore wind farm was abandoned after a decade of lawsuits from local residents concerned about disrupting fishing patterns and coastal views. Anti-Wind Farm Activism Is Sweeping Europe—and the U.S. Could Be Next

I remember this well, and it was the "coastal views" that made up the majority of complaints. So. the "not in my backyard" folks prevailed, but a lot of those folks were wealthy and liberal.

"Cape Wind went up against the nearly unstoppable force of upper-class liberal NIMBYism and was defeated," Benson said.News - Controversial Cape Wind Project Terminated | Heartland Institute

This is the problem with elitism on yes, "both sides." Democrats are certainly not immune. The magic wand you reference may actually be within our grasp. Exposing corruption and wealth pandering at the expense of the people can only be done - as is common in Europe - with a multi-party approach. It reduces antagonism because people have a broader selection of parties to choose from that can align more realistically with their views. In other words, they have a voice. And most importantly, multi-party systems can keep each other "in check" so to speak, and have to work for compromise right from the get go, instead of all the bickering and time wasting that a petty two party system produces. If the environment is a mainstream concern, as another poster suggested, then voting for those that hold it dear is the best way to implement change and protect it. Thanks!!

That's not a defense of BOTH SIDES'ing the issue. There's a very clear difference in the parties on the environment. If you care about the issue, you might prefer a "Green Party" candidate, that you're so serious about you didn't know Jill Stein wasn't on the ballot this year, but you know there is a 0.00% chance of a "Green Party" candidate winning an election to Congress or the Presidency. So there's a choice, and one party is objectively better both as to existing policy and where the party is headed, and it is the Democratic party. The GOP is worse in every possible way. So being indifferent to them using a BUTWHATABOUT this project in Mass. isn't persuasive.

What that project shows is even the wealthy coastal elite liberals don't support some project. Well, do you think if the Green party takes the WH that they'll change their minds? Why would you think that? They don't want to see a wind farm out of their beachfront mansion. Having Jill Stein in the WH doesn't change that.
 
He really loves the English...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He's hated over here; even more so in Scotland where the lying fat bastard promised 6000 jobs on his new golf course. He delivered less than 100 while insulting locals and cutting off water supplies to those who refused to move out of their homes so his wretched golf course could be built. That loathsome individual has no scruples and no thought for anyone but himself.
 
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