Pentagon Releases Grim Report on Iraq

[26 X World Champs]

The news just gets worse everyday from Iraq. This is not about one step forward two steps back...this is full fledge retreat into civil war! What happened to the great new Republican plan for Iraq? How come it's getting worse all the time? Rumsfled MUST GO!

Pentagon Releases Grim Report on Iraq

By MICHAEL R. GORDON - NY Times
Published: September 1, 2006

WASHINGTON, Sept. 1 — Iraqi casualties soared by more than 50 percent during the roughly three-month period ending in early August, the product of spiraling sectarian clashes and a Sunni-based insurgency that remains “potent and viable,” the Pentagon noted today in an comprehensive assessment of security in Iraq.(snip)

“Conditions that could lead to civil war exist in Iraq, especially in and around Baghdad, and concern about civil war within the Iraqi population has increased in recent months.” (snip)

The assessment provides bad news on a variety of fronts.

It said that Al Qaeda is active despite the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, because of the group’s “cellular structure,” that the Sunni insurgency is strong and that militias are undiminished.

The Pentagon distributed the report on a Friday afternoon before a long weekend, a common time for government officials to put out bad news. A Pentagon officials denied that this was the intent and said the report was issued when it completed.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/w...&en=1fe8dd0fc7c09a05&ei=5094&partner=homepage

 

[Saboteur]

The news just gets worse everyday from Iraq. This is not about one step forward two steps back...this is full fledge retreat into civil war! What happened to the great new Republican plan for Iraq? How come it's getting worse all the time? Rumsfled MUST GO!


Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/w...&en=1fe8dd0fc7c09a05&ei=5094&partner=homepage

AWWWWW, Why can't they report the good news in Iraq instead of what drunk celebrity said what, drove what or did what/who?

And why do they waste weeks on end going on about 10 year old murder cases instead of reporting that there wasn't a roadside/suicide bombing at 3:00 PM on Tuesday?

Sarcasm aside prepare for liberal bashing.

 

[Deegan]

Sure, let's pull out, let the shite's win, and all pull together with Iran and their shiney new nuclear weapon! That sounds like a great plan, what fools we have in this country, what absolute fools we have!:roll:

 

[Iriemon]

Sure, let's pull out, let the shite's win, and all pull together with Iran and their shiney new nuclear weapon! That sounds like a great plan, what fools we have in this country, what absolute fools we have!:roll:

I know. But we are stuck with them until 2008. Don't blame me.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Sure, let's pull out, let the shite's win, and all pull together with Iran and their shiney new nuclear weapon! That sounds like a great plan, what fools we have in this country, what absolute fools we have!:roll:

No one and I mean no one in this thread has suggested that we just pull out. What we do need to do is actually develop a plan something we do not have now...the bullshit "stay the course" which noiw has become "adapt to win" but all that meant was moving soldiers from one hot spot to another which hasn't stopped anything.

Now if we withdraw gradually and in a calculated measure "over the horizon" so to Kuwait and Qatar so that if necessary we can get back to Iraq quickly if things deteriorate. That's a plan and it fits into the original "when they stand up we'll stand down" rhetoric we've had to endure for 3.5 years now.

Bush doesn't have a plan. Everything he's done has failed. Violence is increasing to new heights and there's no indication that it is going to subside...so we need a new plan...

 

[Synch]

An ingenious political move Bush could make for his party right now would be to pull out on the basis that the current situation in Iraq has emerged as a civil war from what was an occupation. I know a lot of people who support the Iraq base only because they are partisan. I really don't see it to be in America's interest to be in Iraq right now. We've established a Democracy, now let's get out.

 

[Iriemon]

An ingenious political move Bush could make for his party right now would be to pull out on the basis that the current situation in Iraq has emerged as a civil war from what was an occupation. I know a lot of people who support the Iraq base only because they are partisan. I really don't see it to be in America's interest to be in Iraq right now. We've established a Democracy, now let's get out.

That is a double edged sword. When the US pulls out, Iraq could very well end up with a radical Shiite government closesly aligned (if not dominated by) Iran. Or it could devolve into further civil war, destabilizing the region. Neither is good, though I agree that the consequences of a long term indefinite occupation by the US is worse.

But if the US pulls out on Bush's watch and either of those contingencies happen, this whole "mistaken" war will be shown for the fiasco it is. Bush won't take the chance that his presidency will be forever marred. The perceived safer course is to stay the course, keep telling everyone the Iraqis are in their last throes, and good times are around the corner, and we're fighting tyrrany, and we can't let all the soldiers who have died die in vain, etc etc. This way, when the next president is elected it will be his or her problem to deal with. When the troops are withdrawn then, and fiasco occurs, then Bush and crew can say it was all the next president's fault for pulling out. Not the stand up thing to do, I agree; but Bush is a pass the buck kind of guy.

I believe he meant it when he said Iraq will be the next president's issue to deal with, for precisely this reason.

 

[RightinNYC]

This report looks at 3 month chunks. Also worth noting are month to month trends.

BAGHDAD (AP) — Preliminary figures show that violent deaths in Iraq dropped substantially in August from record levels the previous month, a Health Ministry official said Thursday...

At least 973 violent deaths were recorded throughout Iraq as of Wednesday, Riad Abdul Amir of the ministry's statistics bureau told the Associated Press. They included 715 civilians, 80 Iraqi soldiers, 74 police and 104 "terrorists," he said.

Accurate figures have been problematic. Police and hospitals often give conflicting figures of those killed in major bombings. It is also unclear how many people have been abducted and slain by insurgents or death squads, their bodies never found.

Still, the new figure represents a significant drop from a tally of 3,500 deaths in July reported by Deputy Health Minister Adel Muhsin...

Violent deaths in the capital fell to 550 in August, from about 1,500 in Baghdad in July. That was the city's lowest monthly tally this year.

So yes, while things as a whole over the past 3 months have been bad, they've been getting better for almost 5 weeks now. Why is the media making a big deal about the increased number of deaths now, when in reality they've been decreasing for over a month?

Also, side note:

In other news in Iraq:

• Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Iraqi forces will take responsibility for Thi-Qar province in the south this month. Thi-Qar would be the second of Iraq's 18 provinces that local forces would control.

2 down, 16 to go. This, combined with the tenative 12-18 month prediction offered recently before Iraqi forces will be able to control the entire country, is definitely something to look forward to.

 

[Deegan]

No one and I mean no one in this thread has suggested that we just pull out. What we do need to do is actually develop a plan something we do not have now...the bullshit "stay the course" which noiw has become "adapt to win" but all that meant was moving soldiers from one hot spot to another which hasn't stopped anything.

Now if we withdraw gradually and in a calculated measure "over the horizon" so to Kuwait and Qatar so that if necessary we can get back to Iraq quickly if things deteriorate. That's a plan and it fits into the original "when they stand up we'll stand down" rhetoric we've had to endure for 3.5 years now.

Bush doesn't have a plan. Everything he's done has failed. Violence is increasing to new heights and there's no indication that it is going to subside...so we need a new plan...

The best plan is stay the course, it is, I don't know how to word it so those confused can understand, but it is "stay the course"

Those on the ground are trying new things everyday, and they are making progress, but from us they need, "stay the course" damnitt!:roll:

 

[Sir_Alec]

Lets all admit it. If we pull out now the country will fall to pieces. And it seems as if only the idiot democratic leaders want us to pull out which is a bad idea. The whole Idea of going there was to help people, right? :rofl If we pull out now we will screwing these people over even more than we already have.

The way I see it is that the people who want us to pull out now are just as bad as the people who got us there. The only way we can pull the situation together is if Rummy gets off his *** and starts giving our troops the proper supplies they need. He also need to give all Iraqi troops American weapons and stop giving them Soviet Aks and Fals.

Rumsfeld is handling the situation like he has infinite lives to spare, but he doesn't. He needs to get his *** in gear and support the troops better.

 

[jujuman13]

Quote: (Sure, let's pull out, let the shite's win, and all pull together with Iran and their shiney new nuclear weapon! That sounds like a great plan, what fools we have in this country, what absolute fools we have)

America was suckered into this war, it would be inadvisable for the US to pull out before the country can be handed over to the Iraq Government.

Yes DEEGAN we do have fools in this country, many of them actually believed what a Politician said.

What is almost unbelievable is that after all that has gone on through President Bush's presidency, there are still fools who actually continue to believe his lies.

He would be much more believable as a leader if he was capable of being a leader, took 24 hours to gain enough courage to visit site of 9/11, took 3 days to decide that an overflight of New Orleans might be advisable.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

That is a double edged sword. When the US pulls out, Iraq could very well end up with a radical Shiite government closesly aligned (if not dominated by) Iran.

I think this is only true as long as their bread is buttered on that side. An Iraq that can take care of all of its own needs is and independent Iraq. Yes, the major Iraqi political parties were fostered by Iran for years and years. However, I doubt if many of them hold any illusions about the nature of their relationship with the Persians. The Arabs were sponsored by the Persian as a means to get at the Baathis. As l;ong as Iraq is the little brother in need of this that and the other and as long as Iran is willing and able to supply it, Iraq will be beholden and act accordingly. After that, I'm not so sure that the countries' best interests will intersect all that much.



We're gonna leave Iraq at some point. That's inevitable. Some folks say we shouldn't leave until we've made enough improvement. Some other folks say that we've reached the point of diminishing returns as far as the improvement we make vs the costs and that we can't really do much mroe to make things significantly better than if we weren't there.


We have already scaled back our expectations a few times. All of the top end goals of remaking the ME are just plain outside of the US's capacity. Now, instead of the shining city on the hill, we're looking to find merely a stable Iraq. This may well be a more realistic expectation.

The kind of pervasive reforms required to effectively allow the aggrieved parties in the ME a voice and control over their govts must occur internally and indigenously for them to take. We can't force it. There're things about Arab culture and political environment that keep this from happening. At best we just end up being another player in the same game rather than authors of a new set of rules.

IMHO, if it were not for the vast oil wealth and the subsequent machinations of world powers, the ME would have been long ago forced to face the necessary changes. But these two thing in particular have allowed for a 'distortion' of sorts that kept corrupt and inefficient regimes in power long after their usefulness to their populaces had waned.

We need a serious alternative enegry strategy that allows us to let the ME implode on its own. No real benefit to us getting in the crossfire between the corrupt incumbents and the crazy contenders other than securing our strategic access to energy. If we didn't need that, we wouldn't need the place.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Does anyone have a link to the actual report?

 

[26 X World Champs]

Does anyone have a link to the actual report?

Here you go....

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/international/20060901_military_report.pdf

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Here you go....
http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/international/20060901_military_report.pdf

Why, thank you. Horse's mouth an' all that...

 

[afr0byte]

Sure, let's pull out, let the shite's win, and all pull together with Iran and their shiney new nuclear weapon! That sounds like a great plan, what fools we have in this country, what absolute fools we have!:roll:

Hey, how come you have the Democrat post count indicator for your DP account?

 

[tryreading]

This report looks at 3 month chunks. Also worth noting are month to month trends.



So yes, while things as a whole over the past 3 months have been bad, they've been getting better for almost 5 weeks now. Why is the media making a big deal about the increased number of deaths now, when in reality they've been decreasing for over a month?

Also, side note:


2 down, 16 to go. This, combined with the tenative 12-18 month prediction offered recently before Iraqi forces will be able to control the entire country, is definitely something to look forward to.

Every time I see one of these short term blurbs with positive news, the next period is always worse. I don't think the recent term means anything.

Don't have much faith in the Iraqi forces either. Last I heard, there is still only one Iraqi brigade that can operate without American control, or support.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Every time I see one of these short term blurbs with positive news, the next period is always worse. I don't think the recent term means anything.

Don't have much faith in the Iraqi forces either. Last I heard, there is still only one Iraqi brigade that can operate without American control, or support.

Not to mention the incredible violence just this week, especially in Baghdad. If you read the entire report I think anyone who is not a Bushaholic has to conclude that things are going very badly in Iraq and that there's virtually no "good news" that has long term value to making peace in Iraq.

If Militias and the Army are still at "war" with each other, if Sunni & Shiite still want each other dead, if all of the above want Americans dead how on Earth can anyone with the slightest amount of objectivity suggest that things are improving after reading this report?

My answer to my question is the old "grasping at straws" logic. Unable to accept the truth Bushies live in denial and this denial actually contributes to the ongoing problem since said problems are not being addressed.

The same mistakes are being made over and over again...the true definition of insanity = The Bush War Plan.

America will decide in 66 days if they support the President's "stay the course" failure or if they will reach across the aisle and try something else to extricate us from the Civil War that George created....Time will tell....

 

[robin]

Heck maybe the CIA weren't so daft putting Saddam in power in the first place. At least he stamped out most of the inter tribal religious BS. Things were bad under him, but they seem even worse now. http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/cia_iraq.htm

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Heck maybe the CIA weren't so daft putting Saddam in power in the first place. At least he stamped out most of the inter tribal religious BS. Things were bad under him, but they seem even worse now. http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/cia_iraq.htm

I suspect that US's involvement in that merely delayed the inevitable changes that are coming for Iraq. As much as we can I think we should just leave those folks to their own devices. Everyone in the greater ME. Unfortunately we have so many interests in the area at the moment it ain't gonna happen any time soon.

 

[RightinNYC]

Every time I see one of these short term blurbs with positive news, the next period is always worse. I don't think the recent term means anything.

Well, I could make the argument that I don't think the recent 3 months as a whole means anything, but I'll abstain.

Don't have much faith in the Iraqi forces either. Last I heard, there is still only one Iraqi brigade that can operate without American control, or support.

Er, yes. I clearly stated that one province is currently under Iraqi control, and that another will be taking over this month. That's a good thing.

 

[tryreading]

Not to mention the incredible violence just this week, especially in Baghdad. If you read the entire report I think anyone who is not a Bushaholic has to conclude that things are going very badly in Iraq and that there's virtually no "good news" that has long term value to making peace in Iraq.

If Militias and the Army are still at "war" with each other, if Sunni & Shiite still want each other dead, if all of the above want Americans dead how on Earth can anyone with the slightest amount of objectivity suggest that things are improving after reading this report?

My answer to my question is the old "grasping at straws" logic. Unable to accept the truth Bushies live in denial and this denial actually contributes to the ongoing problem since said problems are not being addressed.

The same mistakes are being made over and over again...the true definition of insanity = The Bush War Plan.

America will decide in 66 days if they support the President's "stay the course" failure or if they will reach across the aisle and try something else to extricate us from the Civil War that George created....Time will tell....

I really worry about the attitude of the current administration that we can control or fundamentally change the way foreign countries operate. I hope the scope of our military actions doesn't expand any more before 2008, unless absolutely necessary. I realise we have enemies, but we need the intelligence services to operate properly before committing to any more major operations.

 

[tryreading]

Well, I could make the argument that I don't think the recent 3 months as a whole means anything, but I'll abstain.


Er, yes. I clearly stated that one province is currently under Iraqi control, and that another will be taking over this month. That's a good thing.

Right, when its all over, the total lives lost will be what matters.

Its a good thing. I just don't understand how only one brigade is operational on its own, after over three years.

 

[jujuman13]

QuoteIts a good thing. I just don't understand how only one brigade is operational on its own, after over three years.)


Most of the grunts in the Iraqi army are in the army because they need to feed their family's.

Muslim army's from the M.E. are generally ill disciplined, have very little incentive to actually lay down their lives for leaders they do not trust.

 

[26 X World Champs]

QuoteIts a good thing. I just don't understand how only one brigade is operational on its own, after over three years.)


Most of the grunts in the Iraqi army are in the army because they need to feed their family's.

Muslim army's from the M.E. are generally ill disciplined, have very little incentive to actually lay down their lives for leaders they do not trust.

Seems a bit of a generalization to make a claim such as you made? ARe you saying that after 3.5 years of training our methodology is weak or just that they are weak?

Seems to me there's got to be something wrong with both sides....