Pelosi calls for investigation regarding mosque funding

[TacticalEvilDan]

Sorry I thought you were a liberal.

Why, because we disagree? :lol:

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

You had it backwards.
You think Pelosi is an idiot? Why? Because she wants to investiagate the Protesters or she wants to investigate the funding of the Mosque?

Because she suggested an investigation of any sort. What she should have said was essentially what I've been saying.

 

[Harshaw]

That really made no sense.

:roll: It does if you have any idea of what's actually happening.

Are we in the same conversation? All I can glean is that you are trying to say I want to take someone's First Amendment rights, too? No, speak away! Or are you saying that someone's First Amendment rights are being taken away by the building of the mosque? No, speak away. Say you don't like it. But, if you're saying that stopping them from building it is exercising First Amendment rights

Then you have no interest at all in an honest exchange here, because no one's stopping them.

all I have to say is: Yeah, and a corporation is a person.

I'm sure you think, for some reason, this is quite biting and witty, but it's worth the Non-Sequitur Of The Year award.

 

[Barbbtx]

Because she suggested an investigation of any sort. What she should have said was essentially what I've been saying.

OK, that's fair.

 

[Barbbtx]

Why, because we disagree? :lol:

Well.....yea
There are a lot of posters here and I sometimes get confused about who thinks what. However, what I do know is that you and I often disagree so.... disagree with me= liberal. LOL

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Well.....yea
There are a lot of posters here and I sometimes get confused about who thinks what. However, what I do know is that you and I often disagree so.... disagree with me= liberal. LOL

I understand that approach. Perhaps with some people (and I'm not pointing any fingers, honest), that approach would be accurate.

The difficulty with applying it to me, and I mean this in all seriousness, is that my politics are far too complicated. Unlike a lot of pundits (who try to tell us how government should work based on some ideal America), and unlike a lot of so-called experts (who try to tell us how government should work right now in the real world so that things don't collapse), I have two political models I hold simultaneously in my mind -- the way it would work in an ideal America, and the way to make it work as best we can right now. I overlay these two a lot, because I'm convinced there a solution to be found somewhere between the pragmatic real-world view and in the idealistic view.

Don't be surprised if you find me in your corner on something else, or (as happened here) I'm in agreement with you on one point and in total disagreement on another point -- especially if, in your mind, the two points are inseparable.

 

[Compatibilist]

From what I understand there have been over 700 new mosques built [or opened for worship] in the US since 9/11. So I don't think this is really an issue of religious freedom

I keep thinking about how muslims [as a whole] haven't yet fully assimilated into american society. I also wonder if many are still adjusting to "culture shock" on one level or another. CS is overcome in stages and I'm fairly certain a lot of muslims in america haven't yet reached the final stage of "Interdependence". This must be especially true of those here on visa's and others who have immigated or in the process.

Anyway, this last stage of CS is characterized by accurately building on both similarities and differences between previous and new cultures. It's important [if not essential] to exhibit a high level of trust and authentic sensitivity to the conditions of the host culture and accurately interpret the meaning of significant events... especially one like 9/11. Herein lies the problem with the mosque near ground zero. In order to gain the trust of mainstream americans they will need to do a better job of identifying themselves and what they believe. They currently have our attention so now would be a good time for it.

From a religious standpoint... it has to be much more difficult for muslims [as opposed to christians] to adapt to US culture. Thats partly because our judicial system was originally developed mostly from judeo-christian teachings and values.

I don't know much about the different muslim sects other than names like Sunni, Shi'ite, Alawites, Sufis, Babis... and "Nation of Islam' which I think is mostly black muslims. I have no idea what each specifically believes and how they differ from one another. I have skimmed thru info on sharia law and understand it is interpreted and implemented differently among the sects and subsects. I suspect sharia is as complicated and involved as mosiac law. Most christians know all about the ten commandmants but know little of the additional 600+ laws handed down from God to Moses.

Anyway, one of these moslem subsects or off-shoots is known as Wahhabism. I'm told this is the basis of beliefs for the Taliban and al queda. Some religious scholars describe Wahhabism as an Islamic sect that is intolerant and unwilling to accommodate other religions and likely to create a narrow view of the world among its followers... they are obviously willing to kill and be killed in order to stop the spread of western progressive ideology.

I see in the news and here at DP people talking about HATE being the cause of intolerance and the reason behind opposition to this mosque... which is untrue. The real issues are respect, fear and trust. We've taken an enormous hit from people who claim their primary motivation for killing us is justified by their muslim faith. Now we have have people of the same faith who want to build a place of worship near where their fellow muslims attacked us.

If the promoters of this project have any sensitivity at all... they will make a concerted effort to calm the fears and gain the trust of all who are against this... especially the families directly hurt from this tragedy. I'd personally like to see the first step come from this fellow Rauf. He could be interviewed on national TV or else have some type of "townhall meeting" with family survivors of those killed. At the very least... release a statement outlining specific reasons why they want to build at this location and provide full disclosure of funding.

 

[Barbbtx]

If the promoters of this project have any sensitivity at all... they will make a concerted effort to calm the fears and gain the trust of all who are against this... especially the families directly hurt from this tragedy. I'd personally like to see the first step come from this fellow Rauf. He could be interviewed on national TV or else have some type of "townhall meeting" with family survivors of those killed. At the very least... release a statement outlining specific reasons why they want to build at this location and provide full disclosure of funding.

It is very odd and troubling that someone who wants to "build bridges" seems unwilling to talk about this. His wife was on TV and did nothing to calm any fears. She wouldn't commit to talking with Patterson about a new location. She said what she was seeing was pure hate from those who oppose the Mosque. I see no reason whatsoever why they should be trusted. Where's the outreach? All I'm seeing is intolerance and a severe lack of sensitivity. She seemed so....I don't know,...cold I guess. That's the best word I can come up with.

 

[Bereal]

It is very odd and troubling that someone who wants to "build bridges" seems unwilling to talk about this. His wife was on TV and did nothing to calm any fears. She wouldn't commit to talking with Patterson about a new location. She said what she was seeing was pure hate from those who oppose the Mosque. I see no reason whatsoever why they should be trusted. Where's the outreach? All I'm seeing is intolerance and a severe lack of sensitivity. She seemed so....I don't know,...cold I guess. That's the best word I can come up with.

Well, she's wrong. It's not pure hate. There's a lot of ignorance involved, too. It's not that hard to understand. It's just that people like you have raised the likes of Osama bin Laden onto a pedestal. He says this is what Islam is, and you buy it. Other Muslims had nothing to do with what some nutcases did on September 11th. Why would they address it? Just because Osama and his kind define Islam that way does not make it so. Why are you so dense? I guess all of us white people are responsible for slavery? All Germans should stay out of France? Yes, what you're saying is just that stupid.

What one person does is that person's responsibility. Are you responsible for everything done by other people of your race or religion? Stop being so damn ignorant and see a counselor or something. You're obviously bent on venting some pent up feelings on anyone you can label.

No, wait. My daughter was attacked by a dog when she was 5. Do you have a dog, you bastard. Apologize, right now!

 

[Bereal]

Thanks for that. It was good to hear someone make some informed separation of issues. There are many sects, and interpretations of the law, just as in Christianity or Judaism. I would like to add a couple things. The monotheistic origins of Islam are the same as Judaism. Isaac (Jews) and Ishmael (Arabs) were sons of Abraham. They went their separate ways (family feud type of thing). Additionally, Mohammed criticized Jews for not recognizing Jesus as the messiah. Here's a few other quotes from the Quran that should be interesting:


O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near

...Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you in submission to Allah superior to those who disbelieve

Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth].

The truth is, this is about politics and religion is being used to take the heat.

 

[BDBoop]

And anyway... it's not a mosque, and it's not at ground zero. It's a community centre for the public that will have a prayer area for Muslims, similar to how chapels are in hospitals. If Muslims are building it then obviously they are going to have prayer services in the same building, especially if they pray 5 times daily. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

Good comparison.

 

[Barbbtx]

Well, she's wrong. It's not pure hate. There's a lot of ignorance involved, too. It's not that hard to understand. It's just that people like you have raised the likes of Osama bin Laden onto a pedestal. He says this is what Islam is, and you buy it. Other Muslims had nothing to do with what some nutcases did on September 11th. Why would they address it? Just because Osama and his kind define Islam that way does not make it so. Why are you so dense? I guess all of us white people are responsible for slavery? All Germans should stay out of France? Yes, what you're saying is just that stupid.

What one person does is that person's responsibility. Are you responsible for everything done by other people of your race or religion? Stop being so damn ignorant and see a counselor or something. You're obviously bent on venting some pent up feelings on anyone you can label.

No, wait. My daughter was attacked by a dog when she was 5. Do you have a dog, you bastard. Apologize, right now!

They say they want to build bridges. I don't believe it. They are too damn adament about WHERE they MUST build. Why there? Because 70% of Americans are asking that they move it? They want to show their power? What is the answer? They are the ones causing the fear and anger. Where is the money coming from? Why are we paying for Rauf's travels to ME? Why won't he say he will not accept money from Iran? Why won't he call Hamas a terrorist organization? Is the Mosque a symbol of Conquest? Is that why it MUST be on that spot? Why is his wife on TV saying all Americans hate Muslims. Why is the Imam saying we have more blood on our hands than the Islamic terrorists?
If we hated Muslims so much then why are there thousands of Mosques all over the United States.
I'm not going to apologize for anything. I'm not Obama. I don't apologize to those who hate America and all she stands for.

 

[Mustachio]

From what I understand there have been over 700 new mosques built [or opened for worship] in the US since 9/11. So I don't think this is really an issue of religious freedom

I keep thinking about how muslims [as a whole] haven't yet fully assimilated into american society.

We've taken an enormous hit from people who claim their primary motivation for killing us is justified by their muslim faith. Now we have have people of the same faith who want to build a place of worship near where their fellow muslims attacked us.

At the very least... release a statement outlining specific reasons why they want to build at this location and provide full disclosure of funding.

Sorry, I wanted to cut down your comment to the things I was going to respond to. This is an issue of religious freedom. If there are locations that are not acceptable to have a place of denominational worship, that places a limitation on religious freedom. Just as saying that you can't picket near a funeral limits free speech.

I completely agree that Muslims have not yet assimilated to American culture, although we're obviously both talking about immigrants from the Muslim world. I've seen it first hand. They do not fully understand the judicial system, you're right about that, and they do not fully understand the first amendment. That's why the worst possible thing for us to do would be blocking this community center/mosque. How confusing would it be for a Muslim immigrant to come here and hear about how people have the right to say terrible things about the Prophet Muhammad even if they might just be saying those things to enrage followers of Islam, and then hear that a mosque can't be built near ground zero because it will enrage Christians. That doesn't make any sense and it sends them the wrong message.

If we want to be the land of freedom, we have to welcome peaceful people and allow them the chance to assimilate into our culture and help make our country even greater.

I agree with your conclusions that they should have an open dialogue with the public and assure Americans that they mean well. But I also know that they don't have funding secured for the building yet -- so there's nothing to disclose. This is all up in the air, and I just want to see the skeptical Americans give them the benefit of the doubt and allow the questions to be answered before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Compatibilist]

It's not hard to understand why most americans are skeptical when muslims choose to build a massive complex at this particular site. It doesn't make sense for peaceful people to build the [most expensive] mosque in the US... near a high profile place where fellow muslims killed 3000 innocents. No wonder people question their motives and ask if this is a shrine or monument to a horrible event... or just a place for nyc muslims to worship and congregate.

If the former is some how proven true... look out because I could see some serious fund raising among christians who build a "Communty Center" next door [closer to ground zero] making this building look minature in comparision. That would be a good resonse as opposed to what some others might consider appropriate.

 

[BDBoop]

look out because I could see some serious fund raising among christians who build a "Communty Center" next door [closer to ground zero] making this building look minature in comparision. That would be a good resonse as opposed to what some others might consider appropriate.

Such people should not be calling themselves Christians, because they would in no sense be acting Christ-like.

 

[Geo Patric]

They say they want to build bridges. I don't believe it. They are too damn adament about WHERE they MUST build. Why there? Because 70% of Americans are asking that they move it? They want to show their power?

I cannot speak for the adherents of Islam but i would suspect that they might be concerned that people, like those 70%, will see the new structures as a symbolic condemnation of islam if islam is not represented in the tribute to those people who died as a result of terrorism that many of those 70% would like to attribute their religion rather than to the assholes that actually did it.

and, as you give ample evidence, they ARE being blamed for a crime they did not commit.

Why are we paying for Rauf's travels to ME?

because he is acting as an emissary of the United States Government per the State Department.

. I am not Obama. I don't apologize to those who hate America and all she stands for.

that is simply a disgusting accusation with no merit whatsoever. shameful.

geo.