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peacemongering?

pwo

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I was just wondering, is there such a thing as peacemongering? I know that there is warmongering, meaning wanting to go to war even if it is against best intrest. Can the same be said for peace? Can people be so against war that they wouldn't care if the country was hurt. Before WWII there were people against going to war with the Axis, like Charles Lindbergh. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, attitudes changed. If WMD's were dug up in the Iraqi desert today (which will most likely not happen), would the same number of people be against the war in Iraq. I am sure that the core of the anti-war movement would stay intact. Being for peace is,of course, a good thing. But, how far would one go to protect peace. People didn't want to go to war with Iraq because they weren't an immediate threat, or not immediate enough. So, how long would we have to wait? Warmongering and peacemongering are both horrible and cost many lives. I was just wondering if anyone else out there thinks that there is such a thing as warmongering; and which is worse warmongering or peacemongering? I'm not sure.
 

Rhadamanthus

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I am sure that there are people out there who are so fanatical about peace they do not think through all of their actions. Of all the fanatical hippies in the 60's i'm sure there where some who really wern't all that sure what exactly they were protesting. However warmongers tend to get people killed and i have never heard of someone dieing because of a piece monger.
 

pwo

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"However warmongers tend to get people killed and i have never heard of someone dieing because of a piece monger."
[/INDENT]
Rhadamanthus

I have come to the conclusion that both warmongering and peacemongering are equally as bad. America's involvement in WWII was pretty much inevitable. FDR's unwillingness to go to war (which didn't seem bad at the time) along with some protests, hurt our future allies in the war. One can't say, "hey that person died because the US wasn't involved", but if we weren't helping with man power, then we weren't doing much good.

Could the same be said for Iraq? What if Bush was discouraged by protesters? Many innocent Iraqis would still be getting murdered under Saddam's regime. During Opperation Iraqi Freedom, there is no doubt that some innocent Iraqis have been killed anyways. Either way it is a bad deal for the people of Iraq. I guess one has to look to the long term future. Will Iraq be better off twenty years from now, now that Saddam is gone? Yes, democracy will take effect and Iraq will prosper. War is a hard decision but, is not always a bad one.

P.S. I think peacemongering is a new word that I just made up. Maybe I should get in touch with Webster's dictionary. ;)
 

Rhadamanthus

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yes I can see how delayed action on the part of people like FDR can do long turm damage. What one must way in the Iraq war is weather Iraqis wanted to be liberated.

I think personaly that we should have waited untell there was a cry of help issued from a unified Iraqi rebellion. But if that is too much to ask we should have gone in with UN support.

someone call Webster. Alert the media.
 

tann

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I think you may be a little out of your league with the comment you made but than again that is your freedom because of the soliders that go and sometimes may die for that freedom given to you. CNN does not tell you everything take it from someone that has been there and knows. you don't have to like the idea of war and why we are there but you should always defend the people the are defending you and giving you that right to believe what ever way you want to believe in!
 

pwo

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"I think personaly that we should have waited untell there was a cry of help issued from a unified Iraqi rebellion."
Rhadamanthus

Rebellion is a hard thing. It takes a lot of motivation to rebel. The Iraqis had a choice to rebel on their own and be buried in mass graves. Or to live in a welfare state off of their dictator. They chose to live in oppresion, but remain alive.

To rebel against your own government is a very tough decision. All revolutions had people who are were to afraid to take a chance. American included. I am not even sure if I would have to guts to rebel against Saddam.
 

Rhadamanthus

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pwo Rebellion is a hard thing. It takes a lot of motivation to rebel. The Iraqis had a choice to rebel on their own and be buried in mass graves. Or to live in a welfare state off of their dictator. They chose to live in oppresion said:
very[/U] tough decision. All revolutions had people who are were to afraid to take a chance. American included. I am not even sure if I would have to guts to rebel against Saddam.
True the choice to rebell is dificult. But one can only imagine with the way we entered that country how many enemies we made that maybe we could have avoided.

I highly doubt i would be able to rebell, but, having never been in that position, i can't really tell.

I feel that we entered Iraq with the mission to 'liberate' the people. But we went in and destroyed their govornment, nocked out their army and police force, and then sat by while entire cities were vandalised.
 

Rhadamanthus

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tann said:
I think you may be a little out of your league with the comment you made but than again that is your freedom because of the soliders that go and sometimes may die for that freedom given to you. CNN does not tell you everything take it from someone that has been there and knows. you don't have to like the idea of war and why we are there but you should always defend the people the are defending you and giving you that right to believe what ever way you want to believe in!
THAT'S EXACTLY IT. I would have no problem with a war that was truely being faught for freedom. But this war is not only liberating Iraqis in a slightly less than perfect way it also has no relevense to the freedom of Americans. There are solders dieing out there for nothing.

As for cnn, I have an entire family in the media and I am well aware that one news station cannot possibly supply everything one neads to make an accurate decision.
 

tann

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TO RHAD

You manage to miss my point and interputed what you wanted to hear. But let me ask you this. After 911 what do you think we should've done? would you perfer that our president just sat back, kick up his cowboy boots and say Oh what a shame.

And I know for A FACT that MY Friends Have NOT DIED in Vain like you would like to believe
 

pwo

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"There are solders dieing out there for nothing."
Rhadamanthus

Try telling that to the soldiers fighting over there. Or to the Iraqis that are embracing freedom and that are so thankful for it. Just because there are some insurgents doesn't mean that the majority of the people don't want freedom. It is just hard for them to fight for it.
 

Rhadamanthus

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You think that the majority of Iraqis want the U.S. in there? Do you think the majority of soldiers want to be in there? Untell you really know, go ask the soldiers, go ask the Iraqis. Then come back and honestly tell me that they want to be there. If it's true than i will believe you. But i think you should do a little research into what the soldiers want. Go find some that arn't on duty.
 

pwo

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Check out http://www.stripes.com/morale/dayonestats.html I know its a little old but its the best survey it could find. Don't you watch the news. I've heard so many stories about troops getting hurt and still wanting to go back to their comrades. A overwhelming majority of the troops know that they are there for a good cause. I'm sure that tann feels the same way, and could tell you what it is like.

As for the Iraqis, I feel that most of them are pretty thankful that we are there. I haven't looked at many polls about that so I'm not 100% sure how many. I know that most of the people are ready to vote, and the voter turnout will be good. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the Iraqis are somewhat angry at some things, like Abu ghraib and wrongful deaths. However, it is still better than Saddam.

P.S. tann back me up. you were over there and know how the soldiers feel.
 

Rhadamanthus

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I find it interesting that quote all of the sweet stories about troops just dieing to get back to Iraq but the majority of those surveyed (which was not many) said they would not stay in the military after their survice was up.
 

pwo

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"I find it interesting that quote all of the sweet stories about troops just dieing to get back to Iraq but the majority of those surveyed (which was not many) said they would not stay in the military after their survice was up."
Rhadamanthus

But, 67% said the war was worthwhile. 7 out of 10 troops know that they have a good cause, or at least think that it is worth fighting for. I bet that an even higher % thinks that it is a good cause, but they would rather not be in Iraq.
 

Rhadamanthus

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Think of this as well. The soldiers are being fed certain information. I think that their views may be a little bias. Also they may feel that anyone who says Iraq is bad is also saying that they are bad.
 

pwo

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"Think of this as well. The soldiers are being fed certain information. I think that their views may be a little bias. Also they may feel that anyone who says Iraq is bad is also saying that they are bad."
Rhadamanthus

I agree that they feel that anyone who says Iraq is bad is also saying that they are bad. I don't, however, understand what you mean by "fed certain information". The reason that they think that the war is a good cause is not the right-wing media. They are on the other side of the world and don't get Fox News over there. The troops think that the war is a good cause because they see how they have changed the Iraqi citizen's lives. The troops see how thankful most of the Iraqi's are and they know that they have done a good thing.
 

pwo

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"What about the Iraqis trying to blow them up?"
Rhadamanthus

That's not everyone. It only takes a few bad people to give us a lot of trouble. The people trying to blow us up is the fanatical sunnis. The sunnis only make up about 30% of the Iraqi population. Only about a quarter of the sunnis really want to cause violence, I'm guessing. That means about only 7.5% of the accual Iraqis are violent against us. The rest of the insurgents are terrorists from other countries. The Iraqi people, for the most part, are for the U.S.
 
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War can be justified, but only in very specific situations. WWII was a justifiable war because there was a clear and present danger to the whole world and doing nothing would have led to nothing less that global tyranny. The war in Afghanistan was justifiable since it was clear Al-Qaeda was there and the Taliban was aiding them. I don't think the Iraq war was justifiable. The reasons to fight it kept changing. And there was no clear threat from Iraq to our national security.

War can be justified, but only when all other routes have been completely exhausted. Doing nothing sometimes can be just as dangerous as an unjustified war, but I'd rather be a peacemonger than a warmonger.
 

Rhadamanthus

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Hear hear. War is terrible in any instance. But a war fought for a specific reason that has a specific good to humanity is much less terrible than a war fought for no justifiable reason. Iraq was not on the priority list when Bush jr. came into office. Al Qaeda was, Osama was, and China was, but not Iraq. We have made an unsuccessful attempt on Osama and we remain business partners with China. But we have brought Iraq to its knees, bully bully for America.
 

pwo

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How can you say that we go to war for humanity, but don't go to Iraq. We were freeing people.

"You think that the majority of Iraqis want the U.S. in there?"
Rhadamanthus

72% voted didn't they, they need us to help set up their democracy. Like I said before only a few hate us, only 8 car bombs on election day. What happened to the mass terror.

Question to Blue Hobgoblin:
If we found WMD's today and a picture with Saddam and Osama(which I know won't happen), would you still be against the war? You might be peacemongering.
 
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If nuclear and/or dangerous biological weapons were found, or clear, undeniable evidence came out that Hussein and Al-Qaeda had a strong working relations with Hussein having ties to 9-11, I might change my view on the war. Other than that, my opinion isn't changing.
 

Rhadamanthus

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pwo, if we were truly going to war in defense of humanity then I might applaud bush. But as we are going to war only for the good of our pocketbooks, a cause which I don't see as benefiting all human kind, I have trouble being terribly supportive. However I think that the elections were indeed a wonderful thing. And i hope that in the end this can become a good thing for the Iraqi people.
 
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