Patriots: Liberal v. Conservative

[disneydude]

I am tired of hearing pundits on the right talk about how Liberals hate America. Liberals don't hate America, its just the right wing's talking points because it stimulates their listeners.

I myself am very Liberal....and you know what.....I love my Country. I don't love what the current administration is doing to our country, but it doesn't take away my love for the ideals and freedoms of this Country (at least the ones that we still have for now).

I also don't think that Conservatives hate America. I think that a lot of right-wingers do love this country as well.

It really boils down to this......and it doesn't mean either side is right or wrong but:

Conservative Patriots love America whether right or wrong

Liberal Patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it.


Its just different philosophies. Its similar to "tough love" principles. There are those who love and support their children even when their children are doing bad things....and then there are the "tough love" parents that believe that enabling their children is not a good idea and believe that the best thing they can do for their children is to engage in tough love by not supporting their activities.

Both groups love their children, no more - no less. Both groups love America, no more - no less.

 

[Sir_Alec]

I couldn't agree more. I'm getting a little sick of the whole Patriot bullshit. "OH I'm such a bigger patriot then you because I drape my entire house in flags. I'm a better citizen than you because I support every single thing America has ever done ever!" This is not a battle of liberals and conservatives, because to be 100% of one or the other all the time is purely close-minded, but rather a battle between the extremes.

 

[jfuh]

I am tired of hearing pundits on the right talk about how Liberals hate America. Liberals don't hate America, its just the right wing's talking points because it stimulates their listeners.

I myself am very Liberal....and you know what.....I love my Country. I don't love what the current administration is doing to our country, but it doesn't take away my love for the ideals and freedoms of this Country (at least the ones that we still have for now).

I also don't think that Conservatives hate America. I think that a lot of right-wingers do love this country as well.

It really boils down to this......and it doesn't mean either side is right or wrong but:

Conservative Patriots love America whether right or wrong

Liberal Patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it.


Its just different philosophies. Its similar to "tough love" principles. There are those who love and support their children even when their children are doing bad things....and then there are the "tough love" parents that believe that enabling their children is not a good idea and believe that the best thing they can do for their children is to engage in tough love by not supporting their activities.

Both groups love their children, no more - no less. Both groups love America, no more - no less.

I disagree, if you love the US regardless of its actions right or wrong, then you are not loving this country nor of what it represents. If the actions we take are wrong, in order to truly love, you are then going to be willing to speak out and say what needs to be said, do what needs to be done in order to right them
Example: If your kid goes around crapping all over other ppl's places and you do not right such behavior but instead reward h/er, how do you think the child would turn out? For better? No, for worse.

 

[Ivan The Terrible]

disneydude,

Conservative Patriots love America whether right or wrong

That's not how I see it at all. What is "right" or "wrong" is very subjective so I don't use that in deciding wether or not I love America. What you said about Liberals I see for the both of us. I think this is a better statement," Patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it."

 

[mpg]

Conservative Patriots love America whether right or wrong.

Liberal Patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it.

Some conservative patriots love America whether right or wrong. Other conservatives love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it.

Some liberal patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it. Other liberals criticize America because they hate america.

 

[SFLRN]

Some conservative patriots love America whether right or wrong. Other conservatives love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it.

Some liberal patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it. Other liberals criticize America because they hate america.

But theres also hardcore conservatives who hate some of the acceptance or tolerance for some, in our culture. And the extreme radical end of racist conservatism embodied by the KKK who wanted to overthrow our government shows hatred for america. Both ideologies are capable of hating America.

 

[thapcballa]

The argument should actually be Liberal v. Conservative and then separately extreme Liberal v. extreme Conservative

The average conservative and liberal love the country for what it is and do not want drastic change. Their ideas just differ a little in a couple areas.

The problem is the average Liberal/Conservative never get seen even though thats the majority. All we ever see is what the media shows which is the crazed fanatics such as Micheal Moore and Ann Coulter.

 

[SFLRN]

The argument should actually be Liberal v. Conservative and then separately extreme Liberal v. extreme Conservative

The average conservative and liberal love the country for what it is and do not want drastic change. Their ideas just differ a little in a couple areas.

The problem is the average Liberal/Conservative never get seen even though thats the majority. All we ever see is what the media shows which is the crazed fanatics such as Micheal Moore and Ann Coulter.

I always thought of it as their energetic personalities that made them such a fun group of guys to watch.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by SFLRN:
But theres also hardcore conservatives who hate some of the acceptance or tolerance for some, in our culture. And the extreme radical end of racist conservatism embodied by the KKK who wanted to overthrow our government shows hatred for america. Both ideologies are capable of hating America.

I thought the "...the extreme radical end of racist conservatism..." WAS our government!

 

[Billo_Really]

The fact of the matter is that we are a "Liberal Nation!" For proof of this, just read the many neocon posts in this forum that show nothing but blind allegiance to our current leaders. Never questioning any decision, policy or coarse of action. If we go back 200 years, and for one moment, say these people were our citizens, there would have never been a Revolution in the colonies. Because they would have still been spouting blind allegiance to their leaders and rationalizing every decision, policy and coarse of action being made by their [then] current government, with a different George!

But since this is not a Conservative Country, our citizens [then] dissented, questioned the decisions, policies and coarse of action by their leaders, which in turn gave birth to our nation.

Now how these zealots got back into power is a thread all by itself. I'll just say that I was once a proud American, now I am an ashamed one.

 

[thapcballa]

The fact of the matter is that we are a "Liberal Nation!" For proof of this, just read the many neocon posts in this forum that show nothing but blind allegiance to our current leaders. Never questioning any decision, policy or coarse of action. If we go back 200 years, and for one moment, say these people were our citizens, there would have never been a Revolution in the colonies. Because they would have still been spouting blind allegiance to their leaders and rationalizing every decision, policy and coarse of action being made by their [then] current government, with a different George!

But since this is not a Conservative Country, our citizens [then] dissented, questioned the decisions, policies and coarse of action by their leaders, which in turn gave birth to our nation.

Now how these zealots got back into power is a thread all by itself. I'll just say that I was once a proud American, now I am an ashamed one.

You would still be a proud american if the Liberal movement hadnt hurt our country so much. Lets see, the Liberals have taken welfare to a point where its a waste, abortion made us look worse, and also the whole feminest movement has gotten to a point where its a joke. The only good things the Liberals brought that was good was the civil rights movement and they took that too far by trying to have white people pay reparations.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by thapcballa
You would still be a proud american if the Liberal movement hadnt hurt our country so much. Lets see, the Liberals have taken welfare to a point where its a waste, abortion made us look worse, and also the whole feminest movement has gotten to a point where its a joke. The only good things the Liberals brought that was good was the civil rights movement and they took that too far by trying to have white people pay reparations

I absolutely agree that being liberal doesn't mean you've found the Promised Land. I certainly don't support anyone that commits welfare fraud of any kind. I've been working (and paying taxes) every year since 1973. I believe everyone has a responsability to earn their own way through life. Not live it at the expense of someone else.

As for abortion, I have no opinion on it one way or the other. I'm a guy. I don't carry babies. It's not my call. It's not my dance.

The civil rights movement was good. But it wasn't just liberals that made it happen. It came about at a time when conservatives and liberals got together as Americans to right a wrong. No legislation gets done in this country without cooperation from both sides.

I'm not sure what you mean by "...have white people pay reparations".

 

[thapcballa]

I absolutely agree that being liberal doesn't mean you've found the Promised Land. I certainly don't support anyone that commits welfare fraud of any kind. I've been working (and paying taxes) every year since 1973. I believe everyone has a responsability to earn their own way through life. Not live it at the expense of someone else.

As for abortion, I have no opinion on it one way or the other. I'm a guy. I don't carry babies. It's not my call. It's not my dance.

The civil rights movement was good. But it wasn't just liberals that made it happen. It came about at a time when conservatives and liberals got together as Americans to right a wrong. No legislation gets done in this country without cooperation from both sides.

I'm not sure what you mean by "...have white people pay reparations".

What I meant by that, is wasn't there a whole thing about having whites who had ancestors as slave oweners pay the family who had their ancestor as a slave. It was also taking it far by having businesses have to fill racial quotas when hiring when they should just hire the best man and not even look at race at all. Also the whole hate crime is another thing where it has been taken to far.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by thapcballa
What I meant by that, is wasn't there a whole thing about having whites who had ancestors as slave oweners pay the family who had their ancestor as a slave. It was also taking it far by having businesses have to fill racial quotas when hiring when they should just hire the best man and not even look at race at all. Also the whole hate crime is another thing where it has been taken to far.

I have never been a supporter of "quotas". The job should go to the most qualified. Period.

It's funny, one time I was walking into a liquour store and this black guy who was asking people for change looks at me and says, "I hate white people!" I just looked at him and replied, "I just hate!" His eyes got all wide and he just looked at me but never said anything back! I always wonder what was going through his head at that moment.

Hate crime has it's place in our judicial system. But it does get carried to the extreme in some cases. Not everything under the sun can be considered a hate crime. But ones that are, deserve to have the book thrown at them.

 

[Patrickt]

"Liberal Patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it."

To paraphrase: Liberal patriots love America when it's liberal....

I am amazed at the liberals who are so unhappy now but were so happy when the government brought us Ruby Ridge, civil seizures of private property, Waco, and Elian.

 

[Voidwar]

Hate crime has it's place in our judicial system.

Actually it doesn't.

Crime is crime. If we examine the reasons, we allow for the notion that some reason could be good enough. We should never consider the reasons. I don't care if you rob me: because you want to pay for your grandma's operation; or your next drug fix; or because of my race. . . No Robbing of me ever for any reason, so NO REASONS NEED BE EXAMINED.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Voidwar
Actually it doesn't.

Crime is crime. If we examine the reasons, we allow for the notion that some reason could be good enough. We should never consider the reasons. I don't care if you rob me: because you want to pay for your grandma's operation; or your next drug fix; or because of my race. . . No Robbing of me ever for any reason, so NO REASONS NEED BE EXAMINED.

You make a valid point.

 

[SFLRN]

Actually it doesn't.

Crime is crime. If we examine the reasons, we allow for the notion that some reason could be good enough. We should never consider the reasons. I don't care if you rob me: because you want to pay for your grandma's operation; or your next drug fix; or because of my race. . . No Robbing of me ever for any reason, so NO REASONS NEED BE EXAMINED.

No that is the basis of modern day law. http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dorf/20050803.html .
See mens reas. Roughly guilty mind in english. Is half of the equation in every court case, besides guilty act. Mind and intentions are almost always examined.

 

[SFLRN]

"Liberal Patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it."

To paraphrase: Liberal patriots love America when it's liberal....

I am amazed at the liberals who are so unhappy now but were so happy when the government brought us Ruby Ridge, civil seizures of private property, Waco, and Elian.

You're right, the government shouldn't have gone after a group that had massive amounts of heavy arms. The difference here is that that was one specific group. Current day spying policy is executed on thousands upon thousands of people, not maybe the 40 who occupied Waco.

 

[Voidwar]

Mind and intentions are almost always examined.

They should be when determining sentencing, not during the charging and determination of guilt. We outlaw acts, not beliefs. In the end, the Constitution guarantees citizens the right to believe shitty things. If a defendant holds some ugly beliefs, then the judge should sentence said defendant heavily, based on the rational assumption that he isn't remorseful and may re-offend. This requires no special hate crime rigmarole,,, normal crimes and judicial sentencing discretion are already all that is required. You cannot legislate against an ugly belief, due to the Constitution freedom of speech and press, so it is better not to clutter up the criminal law with an attempt to do so, which in the end, fails, and thus trivializes the intent.

 

[Sir_Alec]

Actually it doesn't.

Crime is crime. If we examine the reasons, we allow for the notion that some reason could be good enough. We should never consider the reasons. I don't care if you rob me: because you want to pay for your grandma's operation; or your next drug fix; or because of my race. . . No Robbing of me ever for any reason, so NO REASONS NEED BE EXAMINED.

Did you think of that yourself or did you see that episode of South Park. EIther way I completely agree. A crime is a crime and most of them involve some form of hate or disdain.

 

[Voidwar]

A completely extemporaneous original composition my good man, glad you liked

 

[mpg]

"Liberal Patriots love America when it is right and when it is wrong, they right it."

To paraphrase: Liberal patriots love America when it's liberal....

I am amazed at the liberals who are so unhappy now but were so happy when the government brought us Ruby Ridge, civil seizures of private property, Waco, and Elian.

Liberals, much like conservatives, are often partisan. It's not that they love America when it's liberal. They love America when the Democrats are in control.

 

[talloulou]

The fact of the matter is that we are a "Liberal Nation!" For proof of this, just read the many neocon posts in this forum that show nothing but blind allegiance to our current leaders. Never questioning any decision, policy or coarse of action. If we go back 200 years, and for one moment, say these people were our citizens, there would have never been a Revolution in the colonies. Because they would have still been spouting blind allegiance to their leaders and rationalizing every decision, policy and coarse of action being made by their [then] current government, with a different George!

But since this is not a Conservative Country, our citizens [then] dissented, questioned the decisions, policies and coarse of action by their leaders, which in turn gave birth to our nation.

Now how these zealots got back into power is a thread all by itself. I'll just say that I was once a proud American, now I am an ashamed one.

You're quite over the top!:rofl

 

[SFLRN]

They should be when determining sentencing, not during the charging and determination of guilt. We outlaw acts, not beliefs. In the end, the Constitution guarantees citizens the right to believe shitty things. If a defendant holds some ugly beliefs, then the judge should sentence said defendant heavily, based on the rational assumption that he isn't remorseful and may re-offend. This requires no special hate crime rigmarole,,, normal crimes and judicial sentencing discretion are already all that is required. You cannot legislate against an ugly belief, due to the Constitution freedom of speech and press, so it is better not to clutter up the criminal law with an attempt to do so, which in the end, fails, and thus trivializes the intent.

Now you're changing what you said earlier, you made no mention of how the mind should be brought into the law, rather we measure the act and not the mind behind it.
The problem is its the belief that leads to the act. Sure we don't ban just thoughts. But look at charges like conspiracy. Or attempt to commit murder. It is quite obvious that someone's thought is analyzed in the law. We also determine if a crime is negligent homicide, by accident, or intentional manslaughter, crimes of passion. It is thus quite obvious that we do indeed examine mind state and the beliefs behind that state that lead to an action. And yet again you talk about how we don't outlaw beliefs. But you then contradict yourself by saying the judge would increase sentence length because of the mental state of the person who commited the crime. It seems their belief in the valueness of human life is indeed being shot down because it constitutes guilty mind. In that way the constitution does regulate against certain ideas, like a belief that human life isn't that valuable. Furthermore this mechanism can be determined in adding hateful, malicious acts as a crime. The crime is given a larger punishment under the rational assumption that they would attack a innocent person of a certain target group. Also hate crime laws deter hate crime itself. Its simply an add on to violent crimes. By adding hate acts as more criminal we also give judges the ability to push intervention for the suffering racist, anti-semitite, homophobe, anti-disabled, etc.