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???Patriotism???

Loxd4

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In Your Own Word Define “Patriotism”

Definition
Patriotism- pride in or devotion to the country somebody was born in or is a citizen of
Brainwash- to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim’s prior beliefs

Are these word more related then we think? There both devotion to believing something right or wrong? Is patriotism just another from of “Reverse Sociology” A.K.A “Brainwashing.” So if your really think out side the box (Not Saying They Fight A Just Cause Mean The Terrorist) those terrorist of there killing there self over in Iraq are not Brainwash just more patriotic then American because there willing to sacrifice there self just to kill one of us. So are terrorist just being patriotic (In The Wrong Way, Accordion to USA) or just being brainwashed?
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Loxd4:
In Your Own Word Define “Patriotism”

Definition
Patriotism- pride in or devotion to the country somebody was born in or is a citizen of
Brainwash- to impose a set of usually political or religious beliefs on somebody by the use of various coercive methods of indoctrination, including destruction of the victim’s prior beliefs

Are these word more related then we think? There both devotion to believing something right or wrong? Is patriotism just another from of “Reverse Sociology” A.K.A “Brainwashing.” So if your really think out side the box (Not Saying They Fight A Just Cause Mean The Terrorist) those terrorist of there killing there self over in Iraq are not Brainwash just more patriotic then American because there willing to sacrifice there self just to kill one of us. So are terrorist just being patriotic (In The Wrong Way, Accordion to USA) or just being brainwashed?
Patriotism to me is as defined by the writings of Thomas Paine.
 

ProudAmerican

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Its much easier for me to define what it ISNT than it is for me to define what it is.
 

Loxd4

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ProudAmerican said:
Its much easier for me to define what it ISNT than it is for me to define what it is.
What isn’t patriotic then?
 

tecoyah

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A willingness to look at the larger picture of your countrys health....and speak up , or act to fix what ails her. Pride and Love for the society that gives you freedom.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by tecoyah:
A willingness to look at the larger picture of your countrys health....and speak up , or act to fix what ails her. Pride and Love for the society that gives you freedom.
What did JFK say, "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those that see injustice, but do nothing about it."
 

ProudAmerican

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Loxd4 said:
What isn’t patriotic then?
making any sort of comparison to what our troops are doing in Iraq today, and what Saddam did in Iraq for decades definately IS NOT patriotic.

I have seen this comparison on this very board.....to somehow infer that our troops are using the very same rape rooms and torture chambers that Saddam used for years to harm innocent Iraqi civilians, with no proof whatsoever not only makes someone unpatriotic, I think it makes them a scumbag.
 

ProudAmerican

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Billo_Really said:
What did JFK say, "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those that see injustice, but do nothing about it."
this statement by someone that thinks we should have left Saddam in charge, and let the Iraqi people fend for themselves.

talk about hypocrisy.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
I have seen this comparison on this very board.....to somehow infer that our troops are using the very same rape rooms and torture chambers that Saddam used for years to harm innocent Iraqi civilians, with no proof whatsoever not only makes someone unpatriotic, I think it makes them a scumbag.
You want to call me a skumbag, go ahead, you have my permission to call me anything you want.
Leadership Failure
Firsthand Accounts of Torture of Iraqi Detainees by the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division


I. Summary

II. Account of Sergeant A, 82nd Airborne Division

III. Account of Sergeant B, 82nd Airborne Division

IV. Account of Officer C, 82nd Airborne Division


On Conditions at FOB Mercury
On Frustration Obtaining a Meaningful Response within the Military Chain of Command
On Policy Confusion within the Ranks on Coercive Interrogation
On the Implications of the Abu Ghraib Abuse Revelations in April 2004
On Failure of the Officer Corps
On the Role of “OGA”


http://hrw.org/reports/2005/us0905/
Now let's talk patriotism!
 

Mikkel

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Patriotism is to have pride in the success of your country's history, and to be able to identify the mistakes in her past in an effort to correct them.
 

ProudAmerican

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yeah, cause they're SO much better off now!
absotlutely they are.

There are horrible acts of injustice going on out there EVERYWHERE, and yet we decided to waste our resources on micromanaging such injustices and dedicate everything towards one country that, in comparison to other places in the world, wasn't that bad.
I love this debating point. "Other places are as bad or worse, so since we havent saved the entire planet, we shouldnt even have attempted to help the Iraqis"

LMAO....love the logic!!!!

No one liked Saddam
youd never know it by how many liberals are acting on the topic.

Equating dissent on the war as support for Saddam is quite simply proposterous.
its only proposterous to those that are doing both!! the bottom line is, MANY liberals would rather support Saddam than Bush.

There were many ways in which Saddam could've been removed from power that would've saved countless lives and ridiculous amount of money
Ive heard this countless times, but no one has ever actually laid out any of those ways with any detail. Its easy to say.....much harder to do. Im constantly amazed at how we should all take the word of internet experts, rather than the actual military planners that carried out this war.

but Bush wanted war,
dont forget congress

and now over 2,000 of our soldiers are dead, not to mention countless Iraqis.
a tragic product of protecting a nation.
 

ProudAmerican

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You want to call me a skumbag, go ahead, you have my permission to call me anything you want.
I didnt ask for permission from anyone.

and nothing you show me will EVER convince me that our soldiers are as bad as Saddam was.

but its nice to know you think they are.

gotta love that liberal support for the troops.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
I didnt ask for permission from anyone.

and nothing you show me will EVER convince me that our soldiers are as bad as Saddam was.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
but its nice to know you think they are.
Don't tell me what I think. I'll tell you what I think. Got it. Now post where I said I thought that. You have made up things that I have supposedly said before. Why do you lie?

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
gotta love that liberal support for the troops.
I don't think you have a clue as to what love is.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
a tragic product of protecting a nation.
Protect a nation from who? Iraq was not a threat to the US. They did nothing to the US. They had no ability to do anything to the US according to UN inspectors that were in that country observing their capabilties. So protect us from what?
 

ProudAmerican

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Protect a nation from who? Iraq was not a threat to the US.
again I will point out, you have NO CLUE if they were a threat.

was al queda a threat on 9-10?
was Japan a threat on 12-6 ?

again, you can state nonsense untill the cows come home. it wont make it true. its simply your "opinion"

They had no ability to do anything to the US according to UN inspectors that were in that country observing their capabilties. So protect us from what?
what ability did Al Queda have on 9-10? Im willing to bet on 9-10 you would have thought a rag tag group of unorganized thugs with no army had no chance to harm America.

you would have been just as wrong about them as you are about Iraq.

but keep giving us your unfounded opinion. its fun stuff.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
again I will point out, you have NO CLUE if they were a threat.
If you want to play this game, you have NO CLUE that they were. At least I can prove they weren't.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
was al queda a threat on 9-10?
See the report they asked Condi Rice about, "Bin Laden and al Qaeda determined to attack United States". We knew, yet did nothing about it.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
was Japan a threat on 12-6 ?
We knew, that's why Roosevelt provoked them into war.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
again, you can state nonsense untill the cows come home. it wont make it true. its simply your "opinion"
Moo....

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
what ability did Al Queda have on 9-10? Im willing to bet on 9-10 you would have thought a rag tag group of unorganized thugs with no army had no chance to harm America.
See Condi comments above.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
you would have been just as wrong about them as you are about Iraq.
Care to explain. Be specific.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
but keep giving us your unfounded opinion. its fun stuff.
PA.....PA.....dammit dude, you fell asleep again! Stop dreaming out loud.
 

ProudAmerican

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If you want to play this game, you have NO CLUE that they were. At least I can prove they weren't.
you cant prove any such thing. you can only provide your opinion. if the fact they didnt attack us is proof they were no threat, then the fact that we havent been attacked again since 9-11 is proof the war on terror is working....which is something im quite sure you would dispute.

See the report they asked Condi Rice about, "Bin Laden and al Qaeda determined to attack United States". We knew, yet did nothing about it.
I believe the term you used is "duck and run"
we didnt KNOW anything untill it happened. we could only SPECULATE. just as we did with regard to Iraq.

We knew, that's why Roosevelt provoked them into war.
see above

Care to explain. Be specific.
not that it will make a dent but......my obvious meaning is that there is no way we could have ever known FOR SURE WITHOUT A DOUBT that those events would take place, until after they took place. Most people never IMAGINED Al Queda would have the means to do what they did to us. you would have dismissed it just like the government, and most people did as very unlikely.

now you want us to all say it was just as unlikely that a dictator with many more means at his disposal was no threat.
you are asking everyone to take YOUR WORD for it and just hope you are right.

I submit that if we had waited, and Iraq had found a way to kill innocent Americans, you would have been the first one on the "hang Bush bandwagon" for not stopping it.

You know, the same way you condemn him for not stopping 9-11.

people that want it both ways just amuse the hell out of me. if we intervene, we acted to early and they werent a threat. if we do nothing, we are careless and to blame for the resulting American deaths. and all because theres a (R) after a name.

pathetic.

PA.....PA.....dammit dude, you fell asleep again! Stop dreaming out loud.
Ill stop responding to these types of replies. keep it on topic if you dont mind.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
you cant prove any such thing. you can only provide your opinion. if the fact they didnt attack us is proof they were no threat, then the fact that we havent been attacked again since 9-11 is proof the war on terror is working....which is something im quite sure you would dispute.
You can't possibly be an American. Because in this country, a man is innocent until proven guilty. Your finding Iraq guilty and forcing them to prove their innocence. That's ass backwards, Jack!

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
I believe the term you used is "duck and run"
we didnt KNOW anything untill it happened. we could only SPECULATE. just as we did with regard to Iraq.
Your whole thing is a pre-emptive strike. Why would we do a pre-emptive strike unless we had knowledge something was up? That report was just such knowledge, but we didn't attack. Which makes your entire arguement a joke!

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
see above
Stop stealing my quotes! Make up your own. Your good at that.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
not that it will make a dent but......my obvious meaning is that there is no way we could have ever known FOR SURE WITHOUT A DOUBT that those events would take place, until after they took place. Most people never IMAGINED Al Queda would have the means to do what they did to us. you would have dismissed it just like the government, and most people did as very unlikely.
So your saying there was no justification to attack?

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
now you want us to all say it was just as unlikely that a dictator with many more means at his disposal was no threat.
you are asking everyone to take YOUR WORD for it and just hope you are right.
I don't know how many times I've asked this question, but there isn't a single person on this website that has had the balls to answer it. "How is a country that barely has running water and electricity a threat to anyone?"

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
I submit that if we had waited, and Iraq had found a way to kill innocent Americans, you would have been the first one on the "hang Bush bandwagon" for not stopping it.
You submit sh!t.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
You know, the same way you condemn him for not stopping 9-11.
I have no clue what your saying here.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
people that want it both ways just amuse the hell out of me. if we intervene, we acted to early and they werent a threat. if we do nothing, we are careless and to blame for the resulting American deaths. and all because theres a (R) after a name.

pathetic.
I cannot detect any coherency in this statement.

Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
Ill stop responding to these types of replies. keep it on topic if you dont mind.
You bring these replies on yourself everytime you try to tell me how I think.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by Galenrox:
What I said was...
I like you better in the basement where your foul mouth and profanity is both colorful and creative.
 

ProudAmerican

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[/QUOTE]
Right, cause not only they're more likely to die randomly, but they also now don't have to worry about electricity cause it's gone. SO much better.
no electricity......being thrown from a 10 story building.
no electricity.......mass graves
no electricity........rape rooms
no electricity.........torture chambers

hmmmmm.....yeah, its easy to see they are worse off now.

I'm sure you do, but unfortunately that was not the argument that I gave, so what you said here was completely irrelevent.
sure it was. you just didnt realize it.

You would if you listened to what people were saying, instead of blanket summaries of the arguments.
"listening" to what people are saying is exactly how i came to that conclusion in the first place.

The bottom line of what? That's bullshit, pure and utter bullshit, and you know it.
nope. its a fact. who would ever outright admit they are against their own country and for the enemy? of course no one. but their comments and actions show the rest of us all we need to know.

I can't really speak for liberals, considering I'm a libertarian
of course. if I had a nickel for everytime i heard that i would be wealthy beyond all imagination.

and I know there are a few douchebags who'd be dumb enough to say that, but no, just about NO one would prefer life under Saddam than Bush. It's a ridiculous thing to suggest.
if that were true, there would be no debate. if you dont prefer saddam , then problem solved. hes not there anymore.


-----------------------------------------------------------
1. Remove Saddam Hussein and the Baath Party from power.
we did this.

2. Enforce coercive disarmament.
tried for over a decade, with dozens of resolutions and increasing U.N. inspections. in over a decade, it never forced saddam to comply. ever.

3. Foster a democratic Iraq.
being done as we speak. elections have been very successful!!!

4. Organize a massive humanitarian effort now for the people of Iraq.
also currently being done. even photos posted by Billo proves that.

5. Recommit to a "Roadmap to Peace" in the Middle East.
I agree with this, though I am skeptical that any agreement with palestine will ever stop terrorists in that region.

6. Reinvigorate and sustain the "war against terrorism."
I agree completely, and I submit that our actions in Iraq were an extension of this very thing.
 

ProudAmerican

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part of the last post that I left out. my bad!!

For one you've got to keep in mind it was the same whacko republicans and spineless democrats that allowed the Patriot Act through.
a topic for another thread. though i dissagree with parts of the PA....I feel its an absolute necessity.

Also, war was ALWAYS supposed to be the absolute last resort, and considering there were no imminent threats nor absence of potential diplomatic solutions, it clearly was NOT treated as a last option.
define imminent threat? was AL Queda an "imminent" threat on 9-10-2001?

and if ten years and 12 resolutions isnt a last resort, please tell us when it becomes a last resort?? 12 years and 16 resolutions? how about 14 years and 20 resolutions!!!
it is your contention that we didnt use force as a last resort.
I need clarification as to when EXACTLY it would have been a last resort.

Protecting them from what?
the cookie monster.

That's like taking a pill for acid reflux that might make your head explode
and the opposite would be taking medicine after youve already had a stroke, when for the last 10 years youve had high blood presure.
would it be smarter to prevent the stroke, BEFORE it happens.

Nowhere near as many people died under Saddam than during the insurgency
another unfounded OPINION. fact is, you have no idea how many people died under Saddam. you also have NO IDEA how many have died as a result of our being there.
from what ive read....its somewhere between 15k and 100k depending on the source of the material.
wow, that sure narrows it down.

but its super nice to know people like you and billo have all the acurate facts to share with the rest of us.

You're by definition NOT protecting when you're making things worse.
that would be true. the one slight problem you have is proving we are making things worse.
 

Billo_Really

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Originally Posted by ProudAmerican
nope. its a fact. who would ever outright admit they are against their own country and for the enemy? of course no one. but their comments and actions show the rest of us all we need to know
In your opinion.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
 

ProudAmerican

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In your opinion
absolutey.

thats all any of us can give here. our opinion. some of us act like we have all the right answers.......but those of us that arent quite that arrogant just put our opinion out there in as logically a fasion as possible.

none of us are in the white house. none of us are in Iraq. none of us truly knows the full story.

we just use our opinion based logic to form an argument.
 

ProudAmerican

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Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
one flaw in that quote.

we were just being "told" we were being attacked. it actually happened.

(here is where you claim Iraq and Al Queda had no connection whatsoever......which is strictly an opinion like I talked about in the last post I made above)
 
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