Patriotism/nationalism and a freedom based paradox?

[Travelsonic]

By making somebody conform to a certain standard, in this case a form of nationalistic expression (having to stand for The Pledge or National Anthem in school) which by means is in no way the "only" or best" IMO, through arguments similar to "But... there are people fighting overseas to preserve freedom, show respect!," aren't we in fact creating a paradox in regards to our own freedoms in which the only precieved way to show respect to the coutnry is to disrespect our own freedoms and in return contridicting the statement by disrespecting those in past who fought for our freedoms? If so, isn't this a dangerous ideology in regards to how we handle our freedoms and the conequences of not balancing out this mindset with other balances?

Did what I type make the slightest sense?

 

[RightOfCenter]

By making somebody conform to a certain standard, in this case a form of nationalistic expression (having to stand for The Pledge or National Anthem in school) which by means is in no way the "only" or best" IMO, through arguments similar to "But... there are people fighting overseas to preserve freedom, show respect!," aren't we in fact creating a paradox in regards to our own freedoms in which the only precieved way to show respect to the coutnry is to disrespect our own freedoms and in return contridicting the statement by disrespecting those in past who fought for our freedoms? If so, isn't this a dangerous ideology in regards to how we handle our freedoms and the conequences of not balancing out this mindset with other balances?

Nationalism and patriotism aren't wrong in and of themselves. There is nothing wrong with having pride in one's country. Being forced, however, to say the pledge of allegiance or stand for the national anthem are huge holes in one's ability to express one's self. So yes I do see the paradox, but I highly doubt that you are "forced" to do either, except by those god damn brainwashing kindergarten teachers.

Did what I type make the slightest sense?

Little hard to read but not too bad.

 

[1069]

Nationalism and patriotism aren't wrong in and of themselves. There is nothing wrong with having pride in one's country. Being forced, however, to say the pledge of allegiance or stand for the national anthem are huge holes in one's ability to express one's self. So yes I do see the paradox, but I highly doubt that you are "forced" to do either, except by those god damn brainwashing kindergarten teachers.



Little hard to read but not too bad.

I agree, especially with the bolded part.

When I was in school, we were forced to stand beside our desks at the beginning and end of each school day, and recite not only the Pledge but also the Lord's Prayer.
One day in third grade, I suggested to my teacher that maybe we could just say the Hail Mary instead (it's shorter).
She agreed. I was excited; on the playground, I told my friends that we would not have to say the "Our Father" anymore.
At the end of the day, when we stood for the pledge, my teacher announced that in addition to the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer, we would henceforth also be saying the Hail Mary, at my request.
:doh

I was also forced to say my rosary upon occasion, which consists of numerous repetitions of the Hail Mary, the Our Father, and the Apostle's Creed. To the best of my recollection, the object was to lull oneself into a sort of trance of boredom, which I suppose could pass for a state of pious reflection to an outside observer. Then there were the Stations of the Cross.
There were so many religious and nationalist rituals that I was subjected to on a daily basis as a child, and none of them meant anything to me, and all of them only served to make me resentful of and irritated with the very things I was supposed to be observing, honoring, or worshipping.
I don't believe any child should ever be forced to recite, or to say anything they don't want to.
I think children's true feelings should be recognized and validated.
It is fine to teach children about the meaning of the various rituals and customs in our culture, and then offer them the opportunity to participate if they wish to.
But to force them to participate, or penalize them for declining to participate, is not okay.
That is very invalidating to children; it shows children that they are not valued as thinking, feeling individuals.

 

[Travelsonic]

... So yes I do see the paradox, but I highly doubt that you are "forced" to do either, except by those god damn brainwashing kindergarten teachers.

Well, in the high school I go to (senior year! w00t w00t! :2razz: ), it seems to be a trend amungst two teachers that I have seen to make people stand - though my inability to be in all the other classes at once disallows me to know if anybody else makes peopkle stand. I will not jump to any conclusions though since I havn't seen anybody get in trouble, though that may because they listen.


Don't get me wrong, nationalistic/patriotic values are good, but to use these words to justify forcing somebody to do ANYTHING, against their will, then I feel the meaning is being tainted.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Well, in the high school I go to (senior year! w00t w00t! :2razz: ), it seems to be a trend amungst two teachers that I have seen to make people stand - though my inability to be in all the other classes at once disallows me to know if anybody else makes peopkle stand. I will not jump to any conclusions though since I havn't seen anybody get in trouble, though that may because they listen.


Don't get me wrong, nationalistic/patriotic values are good, but to use these words to justify forcing somebody to do ANYTHING, against their will, then I feel the meaning is being tainted.

Well, I'd say don't do it next time and see what your teacher has to say.

 

[RightOfCenter]

I agree, especially with the bolded part.

When I was in school, we were forced to stand beside our desks at the beginning and end of each school day, and recite not only the Pledge but also the Lord's Prayer.
One day in third grade, I suggested to my teacher that maybe we could just say the Hail Mary instead (it's shorter).
She agreed. I was excited; on the playground, I told my friends that we would not have to say the "Our Father" anymore.
At the end of the day, when we stood for the pledge, my teacher announced that in addition to the Pledge of Allegiance and the Lord's Prayer, we would henceforth also be saying the Hail Mary, at my request.
:doh

I was also forced to say my rosary upon occasion, which consists of numerous repetitions of the Hail Mary, the Our Father, and the Apostle's Creed. To the best of my recollection, the object was to lull oneself into a sort of trance of boredom, which I suppose could pass for a state of pious reflection to an outside observer. Then there were the Stations of the Cross.
There were so many religious and nationalist rituals that I was subjected to on a daily basis as a child, and none of them meant anything to me, and all of them only served to make me resentful of and irritated with the very things I was supposed to be observing, honoring, or worshipping.
I don't believe any child should ever be forced to recite, or to say anything they don't want to.
I think children's true feelings should be recognized and validated.
It is fine to teach children about the meaning of the various rituals and customs in our culture, and then offer them the opportunity to participate if they wish to.
But to force them to participate, or penalize them for declining to participate, is not okay.
That is very invalidating to children; it shows children that they are not valued as thinking, feeling individuals.

Well I guess I can understand the Lord's Prayer since you went to a Catholic school right?

 

[mikhail]

Standing for the pledge is something i think anyone outside America sees as extremely odd like a form of brainwashing.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Standing for the pledge is something i think anyone outside America sees as extremely odd like a form of brainwashing.

Well, I've known several foreign exchange students from Germany and Brazil and none of them thought it was really strange.

 

[Makhno]

Nationalism and patriotism aren't wrong in and of themselves. There is nothing wrong with having pride in one's country.

Isn't there?

I find it quite stupid tbh.

I know a lot of people may actually find that view offencive . . . but I just don't get patrotism. I used to be "proud" of where I come from, then I asked myself why, and I still can't come up with a decent answer.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Isn't there?

I find it quite stupid tbh.

I know a lot of people may actually find that view offencive . . . but I just don't get patrotism. I used to be "proud" of where I come from, then I asked myself why, and I still can't come up with a decent answer.

Simply because you think there is something wrong with it and do not find a reason to, doesn't mean that it's wrong. I see no problem with taking pride in the accomplishments of the people of my country, state, and city. I hope to follow their example and add my own accomplishments to the list.

 

[Monk-Eye]

Daydreaming

"Daydreaming"

If it is about focus, most everyone would swear to uphold the constitution.
Yet, one can hardly place a copy of the constitution at the top of a flag pole.
Is that what the flag represents?

Cluelessness becomes complacency.
In a fit of frenzy, a symbol motivates and inspires for purpose.
What for is the flag?