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Trajan Octavian Titus said:Well if you reenact those reforms then you are going to hit the very same economic rock that you hit during the 90s. The thing about socialism is that it doesn't destroy your economy all at once it takes years of mismanagement for the meltdown to occur as yours did in the early 90s.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Secondly, where have you heard that the U.S. doesn't demand lower unemployment?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Here's an interesting look at what Sweden actually is rather than how the left portrays it to be:
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Well you're living proof of that aren't you?
Bergslagstroll said:First you can’t make any broad statement like this, because it just your personally beliefs. I can also make as easy broad statement about capitalism. Like for example that capitalism also have had a lot of crashes. I could also point out that the Swedish economy crashed after Sweden had started implementing neo liberal policies.
Well I just said that it’s not that common to discuses unemployment. For example from this forum it’s seem that it usually only thrown into the discussion like this: liberal ideas will lead to higher unemployment. But of course you had some discussion about unemployment like for example you had it in the presidential debate. But for my second question if you questioned if the unemployment numbers that are used are the most relative. The answers most be no you don’t discuses. Like for example in this thread some agreed that American don’t cared to question the numbers, the rest didn’t understand the question or started to talk about other stuff.
Well then it comes to GDP you can see from this chart that no country can leave up to the same GDP as the USA. Countries that both have tried right wing politics and left wing politics ends up in the same group. So you can’t say that Sweden don’t have the same GDP as the USA because of leftwing politics. Because countries with right wing politics are as far behind.
http://www.oecd.org/topicstatsportal/0,2647,en_2825_495684_1_1_1_1_1,00.html
Oh and I also put in this sources that are not leftwing (and I think my sources triumph over yours:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&year=2005&country=6840
http://www.transparency.org/publications/annual_report
Well it’s classic social psychology if you or your countryman is proud of your/his country, you/him is a good citizen and/or patriot. But if a foreigner is proud of his country he is an arrogant b*stard. The same could be said for any in group, out group situation.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Here's the deal, all of the empirical evidence and case studies show that when socialist policies are enacted it creates a lack of competition in the market, this leads to stagnation, inflation, and eventual deflation. It happened to the U.S.S.R. in the late 80s early 90s, it happened to Sweden in the early 90s, it happened to Latin America during the mid-90s, it's happening in France and Germany as we speak, and so on and so forth etc etc. And in all of these cases the only solution has been to open up the markets and privatize, the lesson of the 80s and 90s is that socialism is a failed experiment and that laissez faire economics is not.
As for the unemployment numbers, I think the numbers are an accurate reflection, because I think they are only useful for depicting people who are
out of work who want to work, since the numbers are figured by those recieving unemployment benefits but not those whose unemployment has run out this is an accurate portrayal of who wants to work, because if you are still unemployed after your unemployment has run out then you are obviously not looking for work.
How do you figure your numbers in Sweden?
Bergslagstroll said:Well I could do the same. Say hey look at south ameria who tried neo liberal politics and now are electing socialist leaders instead. Look at all the big crashes capitalist had during 1870-1840. Look at all the african countries that have tried to liberalize there market and the bad effect of it and so on and so on...
Because it is also classic social psychology. Because why your ideas doesn't work in a single case is always because of outside factor and never because of the ideas. While why others ideas doesn't work in a single case is always because of the ideas and never because of outside factors.
No what is intersting is
1. Sweden that is many ways one of countries that with most socialist politics and atleast with the highest taxes in the world are amongst the richest countries in the world except USA and Luxembuorg.
2. Socialist policies like in Sweden doesn't mean decreased politcal and econimical freedoms.
Atleast to the conservative organisation freedomhouse that ranks sweden amongst the most free countries both then it comes to economical and political freedom
3. Socialist in the case of Sweden doesn't mean high grades of corruption. Because the independent and well respected trancperancy organisation rank sweden amongt the countries with lowest corruption.
So from that you can atleast draw the conclusion that high taxes and socialist polycies doesn't always mean lower GDP, decreased politcal and economical freedom and high degree of corruption.
Well we compare unemployment them the same way as you do even if it's no time limit on how long time. But in sweden we at the same time debate that if it is the most relavent number. But as I said it as almost gone to far.
But do you don't think you have areas in USA there it is extremly hard to get jobs? Also if you would like to be more drastic you can say that it's not real job if the goverment have to sponser with medicare and other or if the person have to take to jobs.
Bergslagstroll said:No what is intersting is
1. Sweden that is many ways one of countries that with most socialist politics and atleast with the highest taxes in the world are amongst the richest countries in the world except USA and Luxembuorg.
George_Washington said:I do know that Sweden is one of the wealthiest nations in the world. However, I wonder if it is actually, in spite of their high taxes and socialist policies. What would you think of this concept?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:One country elected a socialist government and it's Venezuela, since that time Chavez has instituted a unicameral legislature, restricted freedom of the press, and is creating a giant militia to control the populace. That's not a very good example.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:And you started privatizing in the mid 90s so what's your point, your economy was in the shitter under the state planned economy.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Yes it does you just said it did when you said that you have the highest taxation rate in the world that is the restriction of economic freedom. Freedom house doesn't rate economic freedom.
Bergslagstroll said:My point is that you or atleast other rightwing american like do describe strong unions, universal healtcare, high taxes and big welfare system as socialism. Sweden have had it all the time. That we have done is privatize things like railways telephon and power. But interstingly the only privatizing that have decreased the cost for the consumer is telephone serices. And there you can argue it's the technological development that have lead to decreased prices.
You could see economic freedom as a part of civilrights....
Trajan Octavian Titus said:The reason why prices haven't gone up is because of globalization and cheap labor forces from overseas (exploitation :lol, however, under your socialist system without any privatization I'm willing to bet that the prices didn't matter because you were experiencing hyper inflation, the same thing will happen if you turn back from the privatization.
alphamale said:Sweden has advantages through historical accident that make comparisons between it and other countries unfair. When evaluating its socialist system, account should be taken of these factors, e.g.
- Although one sees immigrants in sweden, it has a largely homogeneous population, avoiding the ethnic and religious tensions of other countries.
- Declining to participate in WWII, Sweden emerged unscathed, a huge advantage over its neighbors.
- Sweden is not flooded by illegal aliens.
Not just services, goods as well you know: "made in China."Bergslagstroll said:That I'm talking about is industries like telephone services, railway and power. First I don't see the connection to globalization except that you could get cheaper supplys to the services.
But as I said this things became privatized so that the cost for the consumers would be lower (not to fight inflation). But instead it have become more expensive. Well I don't think sweden have hyperinflation in modern history even if we have had high inflation. But that does it have to do with natiolazition of vital industries. Most countries have or have it without problems. Even USA there I think things like mail, power and railway ar or have been partly or entire nationalized.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Not just services, goods as well you know: "made in China."
Dude the whole reason why you guys privatized was precisely because of the high inflation brought on by your socialist policies, that's what socialism does it causes stagnation, inflation, and eventual deflation if things aren't fixed in time. Actually are Nationalized mail competes with our privatized mail, it's called U.P.S.. Our power is not nationalized it's called legalized monopolization, due to this legalized monopoly they are subject to heavy regulation and congressional oversite but in reality they are still in the private sector. I think we may have some public transportation but if I'm not mistaken the subways, trains, and buses are still privately owned but heavely regulated.
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