Pat Condell talks about the mosque to be built near ground zero

[MaggieD]

You speak as if every practitioner of Islam is a member of Al Qaeda. This is the propaganda fed to us by the American right. They breed an image of the enemy of the state that demonizes them, makes them seen as though they are less than human.

It's their own Koran that paints them in this fashion. There is NOTHING redeemable about the Islamic faith. The Koran tells us that Jews are subhuman vile creatures to be destroyed -- even MORE so than the rest of the infidels. But it repeatedly calls for the destruction of all nonbelievers.

 

[Degreez]

It's their own Koran that paints them in this fashion. There is NOTHING redeemable about the Islamic faith. The Koran tells us that Jews are subhuman vile creatures to be destroyed -- even MORE so than the rest of the infidels. But it repeatedly calls for the destruction of all nonbelievers.

It's highly doubtful that you have even read the Qur'an yourself. No doubt you are merely repeating what you read off of an Islamophobic website.

"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book [Jews and Christians] are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (The Noble Quran, 3:113-114)"

Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (The Noble Quran, 2:62)"

 

[Degreez]

Let's put the shoe on the other foot.

A radical Christian group destroys a building in the ME, say for example, in Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or anywhere else, killing a few thousand innocent people. Later, they want to build a huge Christian church on the site, and open it on the anniversary of the atrocity.

How many think that the Muslims would allow this to happen? Anyone, anyone?

Sure, they'd say that the Christian group that carried out the attack didn't represent all Christians, was in fact a perversion of the religion, and that tolerance is a good thing.

Sure, they would.

Is there any reason you picked the two most radical Islamic countries?

Is there any reason you still believe this mosque is being built on the WTC site? It's being built around the same vicinity, but not on the WTC site.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I might be wrong - but it's my understanding that it was never built *right on* the site - but a few blocks away.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Is there any reason you picked the two most radical Islamic countries?

Is there any reason you still believe this mosque is being built on the WTC site? It's being built around the same vicinity, but not on the WTC site.

Ok, pick a less radical Islamic Republic, and move the church a few blocks away. Now, do you think the government would be on board with the idea?

 

[Orion]

I love how the far right and neo-cons are trying to paint this as Muslims plotting a victory flag near ground zero. Did it ever occur to people that their plan could also be to spread education and awareness about the predominantly peaceful nature of Islam?

People are assuming the worst and it hasn't even be been built yet, and the pundits are all jumping on board to politicize something that is fairly innocuous.

I swear... if black could be turned into white you people would be the ones for the job.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I love how the far right and neo-cons are trying to paint this as Muslims plotting a victory flag near ground zero. Did it ever occur to people that their plan could also be to spread education and awareness about the predominantly peaceful nature of Islam?

People are assuming the worst and it hasn't even be been built yet, and the pundits are all jumping on board to politicize something that is fairly innocuous.

I swear... if black could be turned into white you people would be the ones for the job.

Indeed - that's all that they're trying to do, sure. . . all part of what Jihad really is:

What is Jihad:

This is the first differentiation of the "lesser jihad", the physical holy war, and the "greater jihad", the inner struggle to submit to God. The greater jihad is further divided into three types of struggle:

1) Jihad of the Heart ( the struggle for moral reformation and faith)

2) Jihad of the Tongue (the struggle to proclaim God's word abroad; right speech)

3) Jihad of the Hand (doing good works in accord with the will of God)

*snip*
When jihad as holy war occurs, it is:

1) Within the context of dar al-islam versus dar al-harb

2) Is the collective duty of the community with specific categories of who should fight and who should perform other duties

3) Before the battle begins, the da'wah (the summons to become Muslim) must be issued

4) Once the fighting does begin, it must be carried out according to strict rules and limits.

 

[Orion]

Thanks for that source from the jesuit university.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Thanks for that source from the jesuit university.

Oh - that matters?
What do you think they did, made it all up?

I wanted to understand *what* Jihad really was.
It was actually really hard to find a source of info that was accurate and not peppered with personal opinion or "praise allah!" or some hidden attempt to convert the reader. . . I've read plenty of those. This one had facts that coincided with elsewhere, just without the conversion attempt.

 

[MaggieD]

Did it ever occur to people that their plan could also be to spread education and awareness about the predominantly peaceful nature of Islam?

Well, they could start be re-writing their Koran. It is filled with hatred. Absolutely brim-full.

 

[Orion]

Oh - that matters?
What do you think they did, made it all up?

I wanted to understand *what* Jihad really was.
It was actually really hard to find a source of info that was accurate and not peppered with personal opinion or "praise allah!" or some hidden attempt to convert the reader. . . I've read plenty of those. This one had facts that coincided with elsewhere, just without the conversion attempt.

I just don't see how it's relevant to the mosque being built away from ground zero.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I just don't see how it's relevant to the mosque being built away from ground zero.

It's relavent because *part* of Jihad is spreading the faith.
Just like *part* of being a Jehova's Witness is doing door-to-door witnessing in order ot spread the word.
Thus, to Muslims, this is a step towards spreading the word even further - as part of their Jihad that they have declared.

Is that good or bad? :shrug:

It is a perspective to consider, though.

 

[Orion]

It's relavent because *part* of Jihad is spreading the faith.
Just like *part* of being a Jehova's Witness is doing door-to-door witnessing in order ot spread the word.
Thus, to Muslims, this is a step towards spreading the word even further - as part of their Jihad that they have declared.

Is that good or bad? :shrug:

It is a perspective to consider, though.

All religions are self-propagating. I'm not sure why that is suddenly so crucial to this particular building.

 

[kaya'08]

Except one religion does indeed have an Inordinate problem with violence.
How many people have died in the name of Chistianity in the last year? 20 years?
People die EVERY single day at the hands of Radical Muslims/in the Name of Islam.
And we have the daily disingenuous and PC attempt at moral equivalence here just because someone can point to a few abortion clinic bombings a decade.

A Fundamentalist Christian is a missionary.. a Fundamentalist Muslim kills him.

Yet you thanked the very same comment that claimed Islam itself is a deranged and psychotic religion, and no mention of fundamentalism. If your going to be ignorant, at least hide it. Same goes for you SgtRock. Your credibility has just
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Fallen.

 

[ashley.hunt60]

Religious bigotry. Honestly, what sort of idiot takes the actions and beliefs of the most radical religious group, and applies it to the rest of the religion. And as for the Islam is a "deranged and psychotic religion" argument, it's just as bad as Christianity or Judaism. Keep in mind these holy books were written in a day where daughters were traded for livestock. When you have a good strong government that can keep the crazies at bay, then suddenly the majority religion of the country seems a lot more peaceful. Islam isn't a necessarily violent religion, it's just most concentrated in violent countries.

 

[Ahlevah]

Religious bigotry. Honestly, what sort of idiot takes the actions and beliefs of the most radical religious group, and applies it to the rest of the religion. And as for the Islam is a "deranged and psychotic religion" argument, it's just as bad as Christianity or Judaism. Keep in mind these holy books were written in a day where daughters were traded for livestock. When you have a good strong government that can keep the crazies at bay, then suddenly the majority religion of the country seems a lot more peaceful. Islam isn't a necessarily violent religion, it's just most concentrated in violent countries.

How do you get a "good strong government that can keep the crazies at bay" in an Islamic country when it's pretty much a given among Muslims that government and The Faith are inseparable? Of all of the countries in the world in which Muslims are the predominant members of the population, how many are pluralistic democracies in which Islamic law is not incorporated into the government to some degree?

 

[TripleAgent]

I think he means that, even though many governments over there are infused with religion, they are not overly radical. Iran and Saudi Arabia are, in my opinion, the most radical today, but they do not reflect the overall views of a majority of Muslims. Many governments that abide to Islamic law, such as Turkey, Jordan, and the U.A.E., are fairly moderate when it comes toward attitude towards the west.

 

[ashley.hunt60]

How do you get a "good strong government that can keep the crazies at bay" in an Islamic country when it's pretty much a given among Muslims that government and The Faith are inseparable? Of all of the countries in the world in which Muslims are the predominant members of the population, how many are pluralistic democracies in which Islamic law is not incorporated into the government to some degree?

Most third world countries with a dominant religion give a sense of wanting a theocracy. For instance, Uganda wants to pass a bill that would have homosexuality punishable by death, based on Christian doctrines. It's not an Islamic thing; it's common for any religion. What I mean is that a strong, secular government has to form to keep the religious nuts out of control.

BTW, here is a list of countries with an Islamic majority and a significant degree of religious freedom; Turkey, Albania, Djibouti, Yemen, Tunisia, Tajikistan, Senegal, The Gambia, Niger, and Mali. Islam =/= Theocracy

 

[mikhail]

Most third world countries with a dominant religion give a sense of wanting a theocracy. For instance, Uganda wants to pass a bill that would have homosexuality punishable by death, based on Christian doctrines. It's not an Islamic thing; it's common for any religion. What I mean is that a strong, secular government has to form to keep the religious nuts out of control.

BTW, here is a list of countries with an Islamic majority and a significant degree of religious freedom; Turkey, Albania, Djibouti, Yemen, Tunisia, Tajikistan, Senegal, The Gambia, Niger, and Mali. Islam =/= Theocracy

Really? your using a country like Yemen to make your point? That great land of freedom.By the way pointing out the bad things christainity has done doesent dismiss the atrorcities Members of Islam are causing.Can you not see the 2 dont equal each other out? 2 wrongs dont make a right.

 

[ashley.hunt60]

Really? your using a country like Yemen to make your point? That great land of freedom.By the way pointing out the bad things christainity has done doesent dismiss the atrorcities Members of Islam are causing.Can you not see the 2 dont equal each other out? 2 wrongs dont make a right.

My point is not all Islamic countries are theocracies, not that all Islamic countries are happy and great places. And the point I'm trying to make by comparing Islam to Christianity is that religions can take control and cause violence, but they can also be tamed. Christianity in Uganda is causing homosexuals to be put to death, or at least hated and forced to remain hidden. However, there are countries with Christian majorities that are peaceful, such as the US. The same logic can be applied to Islam, dangerous when it has too much control over a government, but can be separated from the government to produce a peaceful country.