Pat Buchanan: Western Civilization is Toast

[Grant]

THis would be the same Jews who are departing Europe in droves because they think the muslims are talking over so Jews are no longer safe in Europe?

Yep, that would be them. But at least Bruce Springsteen and Bryan Adams have the transvestite toilet issue under control. Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe? - The Atlantic

 

[Hawkeye10]

Relative to population, ever since the end of the Rwandan genocide about twenty years ago, humankind is living through its most peaceful time in all recorded human history. In no other twenty-year stretch can I find - again, relative to population - a world with so few major wars, so few famines, so few plagues or pandemics, so few grand injustices including genocide.

What's more, today, people can travel farther and faster than ever before...and more safely than ever before. And anytime we want, we can communicate with people on all six of the populated continents - truly, the stuff of science fiction. And since you're so concerned about western civilization - those of us in the West have more rights now, TODAY, than ever! The one "freedom" that has been taken away - and the one the DP conservatives seem to be so worked up about - is the "freedom to discriminate".

In other words, your "good old days" weren't nearly as good as you seem to think. This isn't to say that we don't face dangers - we most certainly do! But your apocalyptic scenarios are, when compared to the real dangers, frankly laughable. If western civilization were to fall, it won't be due to anything stemming from religion or politics, but from physical dangers - an asteroid, a Carrington event, a supervolcano eruption...all of which have happened before, and will certainly happen again.

You need to pull your head out right-wing echo chamber and learn what the real dangers are.

Your argument is rubbed out by 60 seconds of consideration of how often modern Western citizens have been willing to try to trade freedom for protection.

BTW, I am a Zen Socialist, which I claim is left of center, and a former liberal. Dont assume that I listen to Fox News much, or that I in anyway aligned with those who call themselves conservatives.

 

[FieldTheorist]

Great, but Ideas have a life independent of any one particular speaker. Do you have any opinion on the veracity of the theory that Western Civilization is in danger for the reasons this one guy said?

What, because we aren't white enough anymore? Because we aren't Christian enough? Because we deign ourselves to let women in the workforce and let them control their reproductive cycles? Because we let immigrants into our countries?

No, I don't think that's what's causing America's downfall right now. I think that's more directly tied to neoliberal capitalism.

 

[SocialD]

I would say that yes, America has gone insane.. or at least the folks that listen to any company that is owned by News Corp.

News Corp probably owns more companies in Europe than they do in the USA. and they seem to corner the media market in Australia. just thought I would throw that out there.

 

[dimensionallava]

BTW, I am a Zen Socialist, which I claim is left of center, and a former liberal. Dont assume that I listen to Fox News much, or that I in anyway aligned with those who call themselves conservatives.

what are your left wing beliefs? legalizing pot?

 

[Hawkeye10]

What, because we aren't white enough anymore? Because we aren't Christian enough? Because we deign ourselves to let women in the workforce and let them control their reproductive cycles? Because we let immigrants into our countries?

Because there is no longer anything that we all believe in that we are willing to fight for.

No, I don't think that's what's causing America's downfall right now. I think that's more directly tied to neoliberal capitalism.

Please, we barely even pretend to try to do capitalism anymore, we are moving a towards government controlled and government funded economy, where the rules change based upon who is currently winning the battle to own Washington, which is more often than not going to be decided by who is willing to pay the most.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Your argument is rubbed out by 60 seconds of consideration of how often modern Western citizens have been willing to try to trade freedom for protection.

BTW, I am a Zen Socialist, which I claim is left of center, and a former liberal. Dont assume that I listen to Fox News much, or that I in anyway aligned with those who call themselves conservatives.

Hmph.

Your arguments remind me of nothing so much as this group of guys I used to run with in the mid-80's. We were Absolutely Sure that the missiles were gonna fly any minute now, and so we were all doing our doggonedest to prepare for doomsday. We see how that turned out, don't we?

You'd do well to learn some history, to find out just how much freedom we did NOT have in America for most of our history. Even if we ignore slavery and Jim Crow, remember that women couldn't vote until the 19-teens. Remember that 18 y.o.'s could be drafted and fight and die for our country, but couldn't vote until the middle of the last century. Remember that the draft was a fact of life until the early 1970's. Remember that during WWI, anyone who peacefully spoke out against the war ran the very real risk of arrest and jail time up to a decade...and some did get put into jail for this. Remember the Alien and Sedition Act. You claim to be a socialist...so remember that LGBT's (which comprise up to a tenth of our entire population) are only now able to live normal lives - but only in certain states. You're from an hour south of me, so you do know that today is 420 day...and it's only now that we're really starting to see some lives get back to normal from the War on Drugs.

Freedom? Hmph. Every non-white male citizen in America is MORE free now, today, than at any other time in America's history.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

Because there is no longer anything that we all believe in that we are willing to fight for.



Please, we barely even pretend to try to do capitalism anymore, we are moving a towards government controlled and government funded economy, where the rules change based upon who is currently winning the battle to own Washington, which is more often than not going to be decided by who is willing to pay the most.

And he calls himself a "zen socialist".

 

[dimensionallava]

And he calls himself a "zen socialist".

he couldnt even keep up the act for more than one post ....no fun at all

 

[eohrnberger]

Exactly. And this lack of cognitive thinking, the lack of a decent education, is a problem related to the topic of the thread. These people really do believe that calling Pat Buchanan bames will win them a debate, just like BLM feels that shouting down opposing views or carrying placrds, will win over hearts and minds of the general public. They are intellectually bereft.
They can't because they're not much better than those who've been using the ad homs, and the leadership actually needs to talk down to these people, offering them bribes the country can't possible afford, and promising which can never really happen. Therefore it can't survive fiscally either.
It depends on what the beliefs of these new immigrants actually are. Countries like Australia are bringing in the best and the brightest the world has to offer while the US has taken the opposing view, perhaps celebrating ignorance as the great new wave of the future. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDxnPpmOpW0

Well, I know that quite of few of the immigrants, the H1B visa applicants, are foreign students who have graduated college or post doc, typically STEM, with great job offers on the table from a number of companies competing for that workforce segment. Too bad those are in the minority.

There are a larger number of legal immigrants, having gone through the process, which will be assets to our country. I figure this to be the middle segment in size.

The vast majority would appear to be illegal immigrants that have over stayed their tourism visa and have just taking up shop in our nation. And lastly, there is probably a smaller segment which actually succeed in the dangerous journey and cross the border illegally, and staying here in the US illegally.

Yeah, I figure that it'd be much better for the immigrants as well as the nation and it's peoples, should all the immigrants are legal ones.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Pat Buchanan. Is he the religious RWNJ guy with the blood diamonds?

 

[FieldTheorist]

Because there is no longer anything that we all believe in that we are willing to fight for.

I don't agree.

Please, we barely even pretend to try to do capitalism anymore, we are moving a towards government controlled and government funded economy, where the rules change based upon who is currently winning the battle to own Washington, which is more often than not going to be decided by who is willing to pay the most.

Yeah, that is neoliberal capitalism to a tee, it goes hand in hand with corporate oligarchy.

 

[joG]

I think we have also learned that science/technology can not solve every problem. Look at how low of regard we now hold science, even reason is under attack. I read recently an argument the Enlightenment was a direct result of the massive depopulation of Europe, that the tragedy and stress necessitated embracing reason and technical progress. I am not sold yet, but it makes a lot of sense that we have been fat happy and lazy for too long, and that this is the prime reason we have moved back into dark times. In so many ways we have given up now that we no longer believe that technology will save us, mainly because the people who use it are flawed. We need a spiritual rebirth, but from where does it come?

We certainly seem to have allowed ourselves a fine run of the first humanism and later the liberal dream and now find that the right of the unfettered pursuit of fun has shoved everything aside and so requires a quite new concept of human society, law and values.

 

[joG]

I don't agree.



Yeah, that is neoliberal capitalism to a tee, it goes hand in hand with corporate oligarchy.

The 'neoliberal economic' model does not really propose a financial oligarchy. In reality it is a meritocratic system of rules. The high concentration of wealth is more due to an older period and its belief in the benefits of inheritance. It is less the 'neoliberal economic' philosophy than the 'neoliberal social' set of motives that has run its course and is now finding a formidable foe in reality.

 

[Hawkeye10]

I said

Please, we barely even pretend to try to do capitalism anymore, we are moving a towards government controlled and government funded economy, where the rules change based upon who is currently winning the battle to own Washington, which is more often than not going to be decided by who is willing to pay the most.

And he calls himself a "zen socialist".

What I am is what I advocate, what I said in the quote was my analysis of the current situation, which has nothing to do with me.

See the difference?

 

[notquiteright]

I think we have also learned that science/technology can not solve every problem. Look at how low of regard we now hold science, even reason is under attack. I read recently an argument the Enlightenment was a direct result of the massive depopulation of Europe, that the tragedy and stress necessitated embracing reason and technical progress. I am not sold yet, but it makes a lot of sense that we have been fat happy and lazy for too long, and that this is the prime reason we have moved back into dark times. In so many ways we have given up now that we no longer believe that technology will save us, mainly because the people who use it are flawed. We need a spiritual rebirth, but from where does it come?

I think we have learned prayer and regression can't solve every problem. Science isn't under attack by reasonable people, but people who think dinosaurs and humans walked the earth together... :doh

Europe had many plagues that decimated the cities- I'd say coincidence nothing more. Perhaps the survivors began to see religion as not infallible and began the quest for knowledge over faith. The 'fall' Buchanan whines about is more like those who'd rather go back to prayer over vaccines. I don't see dark times, more like the dark before the dawn...

Times change, i'm sure many Britons thought 'Western' Civilization was collapsing as they lost their world wide empire after WWII, we however saw it as the rise of a new and wonderful day as we became the new Romans.

Europe has always been a changing 'culture' no matter what their nationalists say, most parts have belonged to a dozen kingdoms and Empires throughout their history. As the world becomes entwined, some parts of ALL cultures will blur and some parts travel around the world.

I think Pat confuses his own demise with Western Culture... happens to egotists all the time... eace

 

[MorrisDay]

I have been saying for almost 20 years that we are in a new dark ages, and for over 10 that it is too late to reform our way out of gathering collapse Western Civilization, but still it comes as a shock to hear such a high level member of the elite as Buchanan agree with me.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are that we are experiencing a slow and steady decline socially and morally. IMO the pop culture and modern liberalism in many ways has contributed to it. Things are so turned around that what is bad is now good - too many people are dysfunctional, and don't have respect for themselves or others.

 

[Dragonfly]

but still it comes as a shock to hear such a high level member of the elite as Buchanan agree with me.

Thoughts?

Pat Buchanan has about the same relevance to reality as Carrot Top.

He's a complete joke.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I said





What I am is what I advocate, what I said in the quote was my analysis of the current situation, which has nothing to do with me.

See the difference?

Unless you're only writing for yourself, remember this: if your audience is educated and literate, and their understanding of what you wrote is completely different from what you intended, the fault's most likely your own. It's much like programming - it really doesn't matter how capable your program may be if the mostly computer-literate user (which in your case is the reader) cannot easily grasp how to use the program.

 

[Grant]

Yeah, I figure that it'd be much better for the immigrants as well as the nation and it's peoples, should all the immigrants are legal ones.

This shouldn't even be controversial.

 

[Grant]

The 'neoliberal economic' model does not really propose a financial oligarchy. In reality it is a meritocratic system of rules. The high concentration of wealth is more due to an older period and its belief in the benefits of inheritance. It is less the 'neoliberal economic' philosophy than the 'neoliberal social' set of motives that has run its course and is now finding a formidable foe in reality.

Those people under discussion, and to which Buchanan refers, are using terms they feel gives them some insight into an issue but which in fact are meaningless. They cannot, as we see, discuss issues to any depth.

 

[Grant]

What I am is what I advocate, what I said in the quote was my analysis of the current situation, which has nothing to do with me. See the difference?

In fact they cannot see any difference. They are locked into ad homs as a substitute for substance. It's just more of the same.

 

[eohrnberger]

This shouldn't even be controversial.

I agree. It should. But yet, so many misguided people make controversial.

 

[Hawkeye10]

This shouldn't even be controversial.

Nor should it be controversial the proposition that this nation should endeavour to carry out its will through law and published policy. This county is so off the rails that we cant get-r-done, a lot of times we dont even try anymore, and this sad fact we cant barely even bring ourselves to admit.

We need Trump, cause something drastic has to change, the elite who we have had running things have failed miserably.

 

[Grant]

Nor should it be controversial the proposition that this nation should endeavour to carry out its will through law and published policy. This county is so off the rails that we cant get-r-done, a lot of times we dont even try anymore, and this sad fact we cant barely even bring ourselves to admit.

We need Trump, cause something drastic has to change, the elite have failed miserably.

Something has to be done and Trump may be the answer. Hillary certainly isn't, nor is Bernie.