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Partial birth abortion

Should partial birth abortion be legal?

  • Yes without restrictions

    Votes: 1 9.1%
  • Yes with light restrictions

    Votes: 2 18.2%
  • Yes with heavy restrictions

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • No without exception

    Votes: 5 45.5%

  • Total voters
    11

nes

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I'm curious on the make-up of this forum.

In case you don't know what a partial birth abortion is...

1) Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's legs with forceps.

2) The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.

3) The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head

4) The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the skull.

5) The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.

The procedure is usually done after 20 weeks (4 1/2 months) of pregnancy. Also if the procedure was done after 25 weeks (even before), but at step 3 instead deliver the whole baby instead of leaving the head in the womb, the baby would have good chances of living with care.
 
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Only on a dead baby that died of natural processes prior to birth. Live babies can be delivered via c-section and they can be made comfortable until natural death without heroic lifesaving methods being employed.
 
Only on a dead baby that died of natural processes prior to birth. Live babies can be delivered via c-section and they can be made comfortable until natural death without heroic lifesaving methods being employed.

If the baby's already dead, just deliver the body.
There's no reason to cut into the skull of a dead baby and suck out it's brains during delivery.
 
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I'm curious on the make-up of this forum.

In case you don't know what a partial birth abortion is...

The procedure is usually done after 20 weeks (4 1/2 months) of pregnancy. Also if the procedure was done after 25 weeks (even before), but at step 3 instead deliver the whole baby instead of leaving the head in the womb, the baby would have good chances of living with care.

Performing a partial-birth abortion should be a Capitol offence, and I would be more then ecstatic to execute the physician myself.
 
If the baby's already dead, just deliver the body.
There's no reason to drill into the skull of a dead baby during delivery.

Approximately 1 in 2000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus in utero.
Usually not discovered until late in the second trimester, it is not unusual for the fetal head to be as large as 50 centimeters (nearly 20 inches) in diameter. It may contain upwards of two gallons of cerebrospinal fluid. As a reference point, the average adult skull is about 7 to 8 inches in diameter.

So, yes; whether the fetus in such cases is already dead, or whether it will die shortly after birth, there is a need to "drill into the skull", drain some of the cerebrospinal fluid, and collapse the skull, making it possible for the skull to pass through the woman's birth canal without killing her.
There is no reason she should subject herself to the risks inherent in major abdominal surgery in order to deliver a dead fetus or one that won't live anyway, when vaginal delivery is safer for her. Not unless she just feels like it.

Even in less severe cases of hydrocephalus, where the fetus does stand a chance of survival, it is usually necessary for doctors to puncture the skull, insert a shunt, and drain excess fluid from the head in order to relieve pressure from the brain, either while the fetus is still in utero or shortly after birth.
 
Approximately 1 in 2000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus in utero.
Usually not discovered until late in the second trimester, it is not unusual for the fetal head to be as large as 50 centimeters (nearly 20 inches) in diameter. It may contain upwards of two gallons of cerebrospinal fluid. As a reference point, the average adult skull is about 7 to 8 inches in diameter.

So, yes; whether the fetus in such cases is already dead, or whether it will die shortly after birth, there is a need to "drill into the skull", drain some of the cerebrospinal fluid, and collapse the skull, making it possible for the skull to pass through the woman's birth canal without killing her.
There is no reason she should subject herself to the risks inherent in major abdominal surgery in order to deliver a dead fetus or one that won't live anyway, when vaginal delivery is safer for her. Not unless she just feels like it.

Even in less severe cases of hydrocephalus, where the fetus does stand a chance of survival, it is usually necessary for doctors to puncture the skull, insert a shunt, and drain excess fluid from the head in order to relieve pressure from the brain, either while the fetus is still in utero or shortly after birth.

That's an exception to the rule, just like Justifiable Homicide, and I accept it.
 
Approximately 1 in 2000 fetuses develop hydrocephalus in utero.
Could you provide a source for your numbers? And this number includes ALL cases of hydrocephaly? What is the incedence of the severe case you describe?
Usually not discovered until late in the second trimester, it is not unusual for the fetal head to be as large as 50 centimeters (nearly 20 inches) in diameter. It may contain upwards of two gallons of cerebrospinal fluid. As a reference point, the average adult skull is about 7 to 8 inches in diameter.
I do not think this is accurate. Please provide a source. "not unusual?"--I think that size is quite unusual--in fact--extraordinarily rare.

Even in less severe cases of hydrocephalus, where the fetus does stand a chance of survival, it is usually necessary for doctors to puncture the skull, insert a shunt, and drain excess fluid from the head in order to relieve pressure from the brain, either while the fetus is still in utero or shortly after birth.
It's not the cranial surgery that is objectionable--it's the killing and then the abuse of the corpse unnecesarily.
 
I'm curious on the make-up of this forum.

In case you don't know what a partial birth abortion is...



The procedure is usually done after 20 weeks (4 1/2 months) of pregnancy. Also if the procedure was done after 25 weeks (even before), but at step 3 instead deliver the whole baby instead of leaving the head in the womb, the baby would have good chances of living with care.

Banning PBA will not save a single "baby". It is only ONE procedure that can be used.

Gambling With Abortion (Harpers.org)
The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban does not prohibit what most people think it prohibits. It is not a late-abortion law. Apart from a single quoted remark in its “findings” section, which is a kind of declaratory preface, the ban contains no mention at all of third-trimester abortion, or of any gestational point in pregnancy. It criminalizes only by method, outlawing some actions during a pregnancy termination but not others, meaning that as practical legislation—isolated from its mission, that is, and considered solely as a directive on what physicians may and may not do in a procedure room—it makes clear ethical sense only to people who don't spend much time thinking about abortion. Defending the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban in court, as teams of Justice Department lawyers were dispatched this spring and summer to do, requires arguing to judges that pulling a fetus from a woman's body in dismembered pieces is legal, medically acceptable, and safe; but that pulling a fetus out intact, so that if the woman wishes the fetus can be wrapped in a blanket and handed to her, is appropriately punishable by a fine, or up to two years' imprisonment, or both.
 
I voted yes with light restrictions. the restriction being that the death of the fetus must in some way aid in its removal from the womans body - same restriction I would support for all post-viable abortions. it should be left up to the doctor to decide whether that is the case.

one problem with "partial birth abortion" is that it is not medical termonlogy. most bans are meant to apply to intact dilaton and extraction, which is usually done between the 20th and 24th week of gestation, and account for about .17% of all abortions. however, the language of most bans is loose and could be interpreted to apply to dilation and evacuation, which is done as early as 13 weeks. abortions between 13 and 20 weeks account for about 9% of all abortions in the US.
 
I voted yes with light restrictions. the restriction being that the death of the fetus must in some way aid in its removal from the womans body - same restriction I would support for all post-viable abortions. it should be left up to the doctor to decide whether that is the case.

one problem with "partial birth abortion" is that it is not medical termonlogy. most bans are meant to apply to intact dilaton and extraction, which is usually done between the 20th and 24th week of gestation, and account for about .17% of all abortions. however, the language of most bans is loose and could be interpreted to apply to dilation and evacuation, which is done as early as 13 weeks. abortions between 13 and 20 weeks account for about 9% of all abortions in the US.

"Light restrictions" only means you can't have lta instead of delivery the day you are due.

Under "light restrictions", you could choose to have a completely elective and medically unnecessary lta for absolutely any reason you wish to imagine.
 
"Light restrictions" only means you can't have lta instead of delivery the day you are due.

Under "light restrictions", you could choose to have a completely elective and medically unnecessary lta for absolutely any reason you wish to imagine.

Take a Xanax, Jer.
The chick works at Planned Parenthood.
I'm sure she's given her position some thought, and I doubt she's likely to be swayed by your patented prolife hysterics (is Doughie giving lessons now, or what? Jeesh).
 
Take a Xanax, Jer.
The chick works at Planned Parenthood.
I'm sure she's given her position some thought, and I doubt she's likely to be swayed by your patented prolife hysterics (is Doughie giving lessons now, or what? Jeesh).

I see I got a rise out of you :rofl
 
Take a Xanax, Jer.
The chick works at Planned Parenthood.
I'm sure she's given her position some thought, and I doubt she's likely to be swayed by your patented prolife hysterics (is Doughie giving lessons now, or what? Jeesh).

Has Doughgirl finally accepted that professorship at Liberty Unversity? Tell her I said congratulations.
 
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Take a Xanax, Jer.
The chick works at Planned Parenthood.
I'm sure she's given her position some thought, and I doubt she's likely to be swayed by your patented prolife hysterics (is Doughie giving lessons now, or what? Jeesh).

I'm here to debate, I dont mind. :mrgreen:
 
"Light restrictions" only means you can't have lta instead of delivery the day you are due.

Under "light restrictions", you could choose to have a completely elective and medically unnecessary lta for absolutely any reason you wish to imagine.

the biggest thing it would apply to are instillation abortions. a chemical is injected into the uterus that kills the fetus, and then contractions are induced which result in a stillbirth. this procedure accounts for about .8% of abortions in the US, but is falling out of favor because it has higher complication rates than other methods.

I'm no expert on the subject, and haven't researched it thoroughly yet, but I dont see why killing the fetus is necessary. why not just induce a live premature birth?
 
the biggest thing it would apply to are instillation abortions. a chemical is injected into the uterus that kills the fetus, and then contractions are induced which result in a stillbirth. this procedure accounts for about .8% of abortions in the US, but is falling out of favor because it has higher complication rates than other methods.

I'm no expert on the subject, and haven't researched it thoroughly yet, but I dont see why killing the fetus is necessary. why not just induce a live premature birth?

Why do you think 98% of the reasons patients have (i had source for this, find out urself) bogus reasons on why they want late term abortion. All of the bogus reasons pass. Reasons such as "im in pain" and "i don't have enough money". Abortion is simply an easy legal way out instead of taking care of a kid. Some just don't care if they kill someone and legally get away with it, as long as that person lives a better life, self-centered woman.
Some people out there have sex for years and never get married and slowly become infertile from old age.

Why I think some might get late term abortions?

Because some woman don't know they are pregnant until later and perhaps relationship with a man has changed.


Now ask yourself, why does our legal system order men to pay child support when the child is supposedly not partially theirs inside of the womb? If it was partially theirs then why are woman allowed to make decisions to cut up their fetus's inside the womb?

I think woman out there are quite weak, you think you got it bad having a child in your belly, think about the thousands / millions of people in africa starving and have barely anything valuable in possession. I bet way over 90% of woman that had abortions could have given birth instead, but instead thought their lifestyle was more important than someone else. Such woman could have given birth and even give the child away for adoption instead of having the fetus / child murdered.
 
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Why do you think 98% of the reasons patients have (i had source for this, find out urself) bogus reasons on why they want late term abortion. All of the bogus reasons pass. Reasons such as "im in pain" and "i don't have enough money". Abortion is simply an easy legal way out instead of taking care of a kid. Some just don't care if they kill someone and legally get away with it, as long as that person lives a better life, self-centered woman.
Some people out there have sex for years and never get married and slowly become infertile from old age.

Why I think some might get late term abortions?

Because some woman don't know they are pregnant until later and perhaps relationship with a man has changed.


Now ask yourself, why does our legal system order men to pay child support when the child is supposedly not partially theirs inside of the womb? If it was partially theirs then why are woman allowed to make decisions to cut up their fetus's inside the womb?

almost all if not all states have safe haven laws which allow a mother to surrender her newborn child at the hospital, and often in other locations such as police stations as well. there are also about 40 parents seeking to adopt a newborn for each newborn thats surrender. the wait is years.

women don't have abortions because they don't want to be parents. they have plenty of easy ways of getting out of parenthood. they have abortions because they don't want to be pregnant.
 
almost all if not all states have safe haven laws which allow a mother to surrender her newborn child at the hospital, and often in other locations such as police stations as well. there are also about 40 parents seeking to adopt a newborn for each newborn thats surrender. the wait is years.

women don't have abortions because they don't want to be parents. they have plenty of easy ways of getting out of parenthood. they have abortions because they don't want to be pregnant.

I think that most woman that don't want to be pregnant and prefer abortion simply means that they want to have sex again right after the abortion. I think that the baby would make such people look fat and cause some discomfort, so they would rather kill someone for their benefit. I would prefer slavery be legal rather than abortion. I think that other nations (Europeans) out there, especially liberal ones already have feminist in power.

I care little about laws and legality that nations have even though they would have an effect on people's sinful acts.

Hint: Check amount of breast (boob) implants and unnecessary plastic surgery and abortion rates.

Making an Informed Decision About Breast Implants

According to the American Society of Plastic Surgeons (ASPS), there were nearly 255,000 breast enhancement implant surgeries in 2003, nearly twice the number done in 1998. Another 68,000 women received breast implants for reconstruction following mastectomy due to cancer or other disease.

But also in 2003, 45,000 augmentation patients and 17,000 reconstruction patients had their breast implants removed.

Thats shocking, about 123,000 breast enhancement implant surgeries done in 1998, and 255,000 breast enhancement implant surgeries in 2003.

What would cause a doubling in the amount of breast enhancement surgeries done in just FIVE years?
 
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women don't have abortions because they don't want to be parents. they have plenty of easy ways of getting out of parenthood. they have abortions because they don't want to be pregnant.
Actually, I did. It was one reason, but not the sole reason since there were many. Once the child is born, it is a person. Attachment to that person is inevitable. Giving a child up for adoption is an extremely emotionally difficult thing to do. And for myself... having grown up in and around children's homes, it's something I would never wish on anyone. Ever. During my childhood, all I saw was what happens to unwanted children. It would not have been an option for *me*. Not to mention the fact that I couldn't have worked the job I was working once I entered my second trimester, and I couldn't have continued to work my job if I had kept a child.

Though I completely understand the rationale behind your statement, and on some level I do agree... I don't believe it to be true of all women at all. Many women feel that once a child is born, they would not be *able* to give it up for adoption. Others feel that adding another unwanted child to the numbers that are already unwanted is a very irresponsible thing to do.

I think that most woman that don't want to be pregnant and prefer abortion simply means that they want to have sex again right after the abortion.
Surely you're not implying that a woman can't have sex while pregnant, are you? And no, you can't have sex immediately following an abortion. You have to wait a little while due to possibility of infection.

I think that the baby would make such people look fat and cause some discomfort, so they would rather kill someone for their benefit.
Oh yeah... women have abortions because they don't want to "look fat". :roll: Geez do you ever need some perspective. Not to mention the fact that the opinions about women that you express here border on mysogynistic.

I care little about laws and legality that nations have even though they would have an effect on people's sinful acts.
There is no such thing as sin. And if you believe there is, then live *your* life accordingly but stay out of mine.

What would cause a doubling in the amount of breast enhancement surgeries done in just FIVE years?
The procedure became more safe, perhaps? They didn't used to be that safe.

Aside from that, what do you have against making oneself look better? Do you think that nice clothes, makeup, hair products, hair dye, lotion, sunless tanning oils, and haircuts are so terrible too? Do you wear a burlap sack everywhere you go? Does your hair just grow free from trimming, cutting, or combing? Do you bother bathing? Why do you do these things? I mean... it's pure vanity and is therefore "wrong"... isn't it?
 
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Why do you think 98% of the reasons patients have (i had source for this, find out urself) bogus reasons on why they want late term abortion. All of the bogus reasons pass. Reasons such as "im in pain" and "i don't have enough money".

RCRC - FAQs


"Anti-choice groups have used the issue of late-term abortion as fodder in their propaganda war against women. They claim that late-term abortion is a common practice. In fact, late-term abortions are extremely rare. Ninety-one percent of all abortions are in the first 12 weeks. It is ludicrous to suggest that women would carry healthy pregnancies for seven or eight months and then have an abortion on a whim. Yet this is the anti-choice argument! On the rare occasions when women have third-trimester abortions, they do so because their fetuses have severe or fatal anomalies or because the pregnancy endangers their lives or health. "



Abortion is simply an easy legal way out instead of taking care of a kid. Some just don't care if they kill someone and legally get away with it, as long as that person lives a better life, self-centered woman.

Everyone is entitled to strive for a better life. Everyone who has children wants to provide a good life for them, and doing so sometimes means postponing childbearing until later. Circumstances are different for everyone, only the individual involved can judge.


Some people out there have sex for years and never get married and slowly become infertile from old age.

What does this have to do with late-term abortion? You seem resentful that people have sex for YEARS.



Why I think some might get late term abortions?
Because some woman don't know they are pregnant until later and perhaps relationship with a man has changed.

Late-term abortions are illegal in most states except for medical reasons.


Now ask yourself, why does our legal system order men to pay child support when the child is supposedly not partially theirs inside of the womb? If it was partially theirs then why are woman allowed to make decisions to cut up their fetus's inside the womb?

I don't believe that men pay child support for a fetus. They have no responsibility before a child is born, therefore they have no decision-making rights.


I think woman out there are quite weak, you think you got it bad having a child in your belly, think about the thousands / millions of people in africa starving and have barely anything valuable in possession. I bet way over 90% of woman that had abortions could have given birth instead, but instead thought their lifestyle was more important than someone else. Such woman could have given birth and even give the child away for adoption instead of having the fetus / child murdered.

Adoption is more emotionally traumatic than abortion. Pregnancy/childbirth is more dangerous physically than abortion. What women could or should do is a decision best made by them, not a self-righteous stranger.
 
Now ask yourself, why does our legal system order men to pay child support when the child is supposedly not partially theirs inside of the womb?

It doesn't.
Nor do men have to share the cost of abortion.
A man has no responsibility in the matter whatsoever, unless and until he is a father.
And he is not a father unless and until a child is born.
A fetus takes what it needs to survive by extracting it from the body of its host, with or without her consent. it will continue to do so even to her detriment; it will continue to do so, even- in rare instances- to her death.
No man can do anything for a fetus. It doesn't need anything from any man.
But a child is a different story; children do need things from their fathers; they do suffer from having absent fathers, and it is correct and justified, in my opinion, that society forces fathers to support their children monetarily (it cannot force them to be present physically and/or emotionally) in instances where they refuse to do so of their own volition.
In situations where a father is the primary caregiver/ custodian, society is correct and justified in forcing the mother to contribute monetarily to the welfare of the child, although again, it cannot force her to be present physically or emotionally.
Both parents can and should be made to contribute financially to their child's maintainance and upkeep. There is no way the state or society can force absent or non-custodial parents to love their children, if they don't. But we can force them to pay money.

All this is irrelevant when it comes to a fetus, however, because a fetus requires nothing except what it extracts from the body of the person it is inhabiting. There is nothing any outside party can contribute which would benefit a fetus in any way. At best, contributions would benefit the pregnant woman- but no, the law does not presently require that men financially support women they've impregnated. It requires that parents of both sexes support their children after their children are born.
 
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RCRC - FAQs


"Anti-choice groups have used the issue of late-term abortion as fodder in their propaganda war against women. They claim that late-term abortion is a common practice. In fact, late-term abortions are extremely rare. Ninety-one percent of all abortions are in the first 12 weeks. It is ludicrous to suggest that women would carry healthy pregnancies for seven or eight months and then have an abortion on a whim. Yet this is the anti-choice argument! On the rare occasions when women have third-trimester abortions, they do so because their fetuses have severe or fatal anomalies or because the pregnancy endangers their lives or health. "
BULLL-ONEY!

FOXNews.com - Killing Babies in America - Bill O’Reilly | The O’Reilly Factor

In Kansas, the law says that abortions are legal after 22 weeks when a baby in the womb becomes viable, only if there is "irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman."

Now that's a pretty high bar. But there is the mental health exception. And that is where Dr. Tiller lives.


Kansas judge dismisses abortion charges - Los Angeles Times

Last year, Dr. George Tiller reported aborting 240 viable fetuses at his Wichita clinic because the pregnant woman was at risk of irreversible harm.

Anti-abortion activists have long contended that Tiller's diagnoses are flimsy. Seeking to verify those suspicions, the attorney general pressed a two-year legal battle to get access to Tiller's medical records. Charts for about 60 patients were turned over to him in late October.

The 30 charges Kline filed against Tiller — all misdemeanors — center on 15 of those patients. According to court records, all were approved for abortions because they suffered anxiety or had experienced an episode of "major depressive disorder." Among them were several young teens and one 10-year-old, all of them in their late second or early third trimesters.


Not to mention the lack of reporting suspected rape of pregnnant minors...:roll:
 
Actually, I did. It was one reason, but not the sole reason since there were many. Once the child is born, it is a person. Attachment to that person is inevitable. Giving a child up for adoption is an extremely emotionally difficult thing to do.

Also killing that child can be extremely emotional, your point?


And for myself... having grown up in and around children's homes, it's something I would never wish on anyone. Ever. During my childhood, all I saw was what happens to unwanted children. It would not have been an option for *me*.

Now your making the assumption that all unwanted children have bad lives, worse than those lives in nearly every part of the world including China, India, middle east, and Africa.

Not to mention the fact that I couldn't have worked the job I was working once I entered my second trimester, and I couldn't have continued to work my job if I had kept a child.

Thats your justification for having an abortion?

Read this, U.S. Department of Labor: Compliance Assistance: Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA)

Covered employers must grant an eligible employee up to a total of 12 workweeks of unpaid leave during any 12-month period for one or more of the following reasons:

# for the birth and care of the newborn child of the employee;

Nice try

If they fired you, you would have a good case for lawsuit, in fact you should be HOPING that they fire you!

Though I completely understand the rationale behind your statement, and on some level I do agree... I don't believe it to be true of all women at all. Many women feel that once a child is born, they would not be *able* to give it up for adoption. Others feel that adding another unwanted child to the numbers that are already unwanted is a very irresponsible thing to do.

Adding unwanted child? How about having sex with someone who wouldn't want a child from you but sex instead? Its called marriage so these events don't happen. Woman should have the burden of taking care of a "unwanted" child because of lack of responsibility in their lives.

Surely you're not implying that a woman can't have sex while pregnant, are you? And no, you can't have sex immediately following an abortion. You have to wait a little while due to possibility of infection.

No, I'm saying woman that are pregnant (esp in late stages) are less liked by men. You can have sex after an abortion, it is possible even though you might get an infection.

Oh yeah... women have abortions because they don't want to "look fat". :roll: Geez do you ever need some perspective. Not to mention the fact that the opinions about women that you express here border on mysogynistic.

So your saying that not a single woman has chosen to have an abortion to look fat, perhaps you need to re-read my statement. Thats your opinion that I am misogynistic. Your entire post is just based on your opinion and assumptions stemming from your bias towards woman.


There is no such thing as sin. And if you believe there is, then live *your* life accordingly but stay out of mine.

That makes no sense. Everyone has a say in such issues.


The procedure became more safe, perhaps? They didn't used to be that safe.

Aside from that, what do you have against making oneself look better? Do you think that nice clothes, makeup, hair products, hair dye, lotion, sunless tanning oils, and haircuts are so terrible too? Do you wear a burlap sack everywhere you go? Does your hair just grow free from trimming, cutting, or combing? Do you bother bathing? Why do you do these things? I mean... it's pure vanity and is therefore "wrong"... isn't it?

I didn't declare any of this wrong, your just mis-interpreting my post.
 
Actually, I did. It was one reason, but not the sole reason since there were many. Once the child is born, it is a person. Attachment to that person is inevitable. Giving a child up for adoption is an extremely emotionally difficult thing to do. And for myself... having grown up in and around children's homes, it's something I would never wish on anyone. Ever. During my childhood, all I saw was what happens to unwanted children. It would not have been an option for *me*. Not to mention the fact that I couldn't have worked the job I was working once I entered my second trimester, and I couldn't have continued to work my job if I had kept a child.

Though I completely understand the rationale behind your statement, and on some level I do agree... I don't believe it to be true of all women at all. Many women feel that once a child is born, they would not be *able* to give it up for adoption. Others feel that adding another unwanted child to the numbers that are already unwanted is a very irresponsible thing to do.

Both times when my wife and I choose adoption over keeping it, we also chose the parents. There was never any adoption home involved. When I think of the option to adopt out a child I think of a mother going through a small catalogue like we did and choosing the parents, not surrendering the child to the system.

It was such a hard thing for my wife to do that she didn't want to see either child after birth until the paperwork was signed. In fact in both instances she didn't see the child until a few days after she had left the hospital.

I went to see them in the nursery, but I'm a hard azz and can stomach this sort of thing. In my mind we had made the decision to adopt, and I was going to see that decision carried out.

I regret the abortions, but the more I think about those adoptions the more I know it was the right thing to do; and the price I pay for it today is worth it.
 
So your saying that not a single woman has chosen to have an abortion to look fat, perhaps you need to re-read my statement.

Well, Dough Girl says she did.
She claims that she had an abortion so she'd be able to fit into her wedding dress.

Thats your opinion that I am misogynistic.

Yeah, that's a silly opinion.
nes is a kid. Cut him some slack, here. I don't think it's possible to be a true misogynist until one begins to grow hair on one's balls. nes is just talkin' smack, like kids often do.
He's an incipient misogynist at best... and the fact that he is, of his own volition, initiating interaction with others who have different beliefs than he does shows me that somewhere deep inside, perhaps even subconsciously, he's seeking to open his mind and broaden his horizons.
 
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