Palestinians: We don't deserve a state

[The face of Jacob]

Well, this comes from the mouth of the Arabs, who define themselves as "Palestinians", themselves, so they must know what they are talking about:

Palestinians: We don't deserve a state
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH
RAMALLAH

"Everyone here is disgusted by what's happening in the Gaza Strip," said Shireen Atiyeh, a 30-year-old mother of three working in one of the Palestinian Authority ministries. "We are telling the world that we don't deserve a state because we are murdering each other and destroying our universities, colleges, mosques and hospitals. Today I'm ashamed to say that I'm a Palestinian."

Ayman Abu Khalaf, a 40-year-old businessman, said he was seriously considering moving with his family to Jordan because of the growing state of anarchy and lawlessness in the PA territories.

"The situation is very dangerous and many people are afraid to leave their homes," he said. "I'm very worried about the safety of my children. There are many armed gangs and everyone is afraid. If the situation does not improve, I will take my family and go to Jordan. This is not the Palestine we want to live in."

Hafez Barghouti, editor of the PA-funded daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadeeda, said he was concerned that the fighting would tarnish the image of the Palestinians. "Tens of millions of people now look at us as worthless gangsters with no values," he complained.

Addressing both Hamas and Fatah, he added: "Take Gaza and turn it into a state of the Muslim Brotherhood. Take the West Bank and establish a state of your own there with all the Abu's. Your people no longer want a state. We no longer like our killers and executioners."

Columnist Mahmoud Habbash also acknowledged that the fighting had caused grave damage to the Palestinians on the international arena. The internal fighting, he said, has distorted the image of the Palestinians in the eyes of the world.

"The world is watching how the Palestinians are destroying their institutions and achievements with their own hands. They see how we are mercilessly slaughtering innocent people. We are losing the sympathy of the world. I'm afraid the world will now view us differently."

Reflecting the gloomy mood on the Palestinian street, political analyst Ikrimah Thabet said: "There is no reason for optimism. This is a real conflict stemming from two contradictory programs and political and ideological discord. The divisions are so deep that no temporary cease-fire will help. The bloody events have caused enormous damage to the reputation of the Palestinians, especially in light of the filthy and painful violence that has claimed the lives of children, activists, leaders and innocent civilians." Full article inside

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Welcome back, Jacob. The way I read this, Palestinians are not saying they don't deserve a state. Average everyday Palestinians are saying that they are appalled by the infighting between Hamas and Fatah. This infighting is not giving the world a positive view of them, causing concern for the possibility of them achieving statehood. These more moderate Palestinians are also stating that the Hamas-Fatah fighting is showing that these organizations are displaying behaviors that don't show they want a nation.

Sound about right?

 

[The face of Jacob]

Welcome back, Jacob. The way I read this, Palestinians are not saying they don't deserve a state. Average everyday Palestinians are saying that they are appalled by the infighting between Hamas and Fatah. This infighting is not giving the world a positive view of them, causing concern for the possibility of them achieving statehood. These more moderate Palestinians are also stating that the Hamas-Fatah fighting is showing that these organizations are displaying behaviors that don't show they want a nation.

Sound about right?

I won't give lessons about journalism and how to choose a title to a senior Journalist like Khaled Abu Toameh (who is an Arab by the way, it's important to mention it).

Indeed you won't find many Arabs who are saying that they don't deserve a state (maybe they say it in quiet to themselves) but I can tell you that couple of months ago I've seen a documented TV dialogue between two Palestinian brothers in which one of them told to his brother that the Jews well proved that they deserve this land more than the Palestinians.

You will be surprised to hear that some of "moderate Palestinians leaders" have been eliminated and also arested in the end because Israel found that they weren't innocent at all.

 

[Tashah]

Welcome back, Jacob. The way I read this, Palestinians are not saying they don't deserve a state. Average everyday Palestinians are saying that they are appalled by the infighting between Hamas and Fatah. This infighting is not giving the world a positive view of them, causing concern for the possibility of them achieving statehood. These more moderate Palestinians are also stating that the Hamas-Fatah fighting is showing that these organizations are displaying behaviors that don't show they want a nation.

Sound about right?

The common people are fearful because now the world is glimpsing the true faces of Hamas and Fatah. Except for Israelis, most people on these boards fail to grasp that these organizations are double-faced. There is a politically correct face they wear for media events geared for Western consumption. This is the faux face. The true face however, is something quite different. It is the face of boundless hate and violence. Westerners rarely see this true face... but Israelis see, hear, and feel it constantly.

It is difficult to convey this true state of affairs to someone thousands of miles away. For someone like yourself CC, Fallujah and Gaza City may seem greatly removed from one other. For me, they are indistinguishable. Both are bastions of unimaginable hate and violence. Their true faces.

 

[The face of Jacob]

Well said, Tashah.

 

[cherokee]

The common people are fearful because now the world is glimpsing the true faces of Hamas and Fatah. Except for Israelis, most people on these boards fail to grasp that these organizations are double-faced. There is a politically correct face they wear for media events geared for Western consumption. This is the faux face. The true face however, is something quite different. It is the face of boundless hate and violence. Westerners rarely see this true face... but Israelis see, hear, and feel it constantly.

It is difficult to convey this true state of affairs to someone thousands of miles away. For someone like yourself CC, Fallajuh and Gaza City may seem greatly removed from one other. For me, they are indistinguishable. Both are bastions of unimaginable hate and violence. Their true faces.

Good comparison Tashah. Damn good!

 

[MSgt]

The solution to the Middle East has and will always be a Muslum fix. This will never happen as long as Muslims refuse to look at themselves honestly without the scapegoats clouding their vision. This author seems to have done that. And more importantly, it has been done out in the open.

For an interesting read, "The Shia Revival" is a book written by a Muslim named Vali Nasr. He is also a professor of Middle Eastern and south Asia studies. He has an outstanding portion about "Palestine" in it.

Good article "The face of Jacob."

 

[MSgt]

For someone like yourself CC, Fallujah and Gaza City may seem greatly removed from one other. For me, they are indistinguishable. Both are bastions of unimaginable hate and violence. Their true faces.

Perfect comparison.

 

[Volker]

Fallujah is a bastion of resistance and I am confident the people of Fallujah will be successful against the coalition sooner or later.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

The common people are fearful because now the world is glimpsing the true faces of Hamas and Fatah. Except for Israelis, most people on these boards fail to grasp that these organizations are double-faced. There is a politically correct face they wear for media events geared for Western consumption. This is the faux face. The true face however, is something quite different. It is the face of boundless hate and violence. Westerners rarely see this true face... but Israelis see, hear, and feel it constantly.

It is difficult to convey this true state of affairs to someone thousands of miles away. For someone like yourself CC, Fallujah and Gaza City may seem greatly removed from one other. For me, they are indistinguishable. Both are bastions of unimaginable hate and violence. Their true faces.

Actually, I am not disagreeing with either you or Jacob, Tashah. I have little respect or use for either Hamas or Fatah. Regardless of how they present, I see them as promoting violence, towards others and towards themselves. And I do see this as a widespread problem in the Muslim world stretching, not only from Gaza to Iraq, but also to Indonesia and beyond.

My issue with the article, is with the title presentation. It spins things to offer the postion that an average Palestinian civilian does not believe that Palestinians deserve a nation. Though it is nice to hear that there are Palestinians that are speaking out against violence, even if it is only the internal violence, I don't believe that the average Palestinian does not believe that a nation for themselves is not deserved. My view is that the article title is disingenuous in it's presentation, and paints a skewed view.

I do not live in the Middle East, and, therefore, only have an outsider's view of the situation. As I've said on another thread, this puts me both at an advantage and disadvantage in assessing the situation. I do pose a question for you, Tashah, Jacob, and anyone else living in the Middle East. an honest question with no agenda attatched. I have be proposing that there are many Palestinians that are not terrorists, do not want the destruction of Israel, want the violence to stop, and just want to live peacably in their own nation. For those of you living in the Middle East, is my premise accurate or is it off base? Since you are there, I can accept the information you provide.

 

[Volker]

I do not live in the Middle East, and, therefore, only have an outsider's view of the situation. As I've said on another thread, this puts me both at an advantage and disadvantage in assessing the situation.

Yes, this "I live in the Middle East and you do not" is just another trick to give an own opinion more weight without backing something up.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Fallujah is a bastion of resistance and I am confident the people of Fallujah will be successful against the coalition sooner or later.

What do you mean resistance?

Are these people fighting to set up a secular, pluralistic democracy that believes in the rights of women, like in Germany? Or were they just fighting the Americans because they are Americans? Your glorious resistance were so cocky when they killed those American contractors. But interestingly your resistance fighters got their arses kicked when the U.S Marines took the fight to them.

The real resistance fighters are the people in Iraq that are trying to set up a better Iraq for tomorrow. The people that want to give peace a chance, the people that want to work with the coalition to rebuild the country. The 'collaborators' are the real heros because they are trying to make their country better, whilst in the constant threat of violance from your glorious resistance fighters.

Fallujah had a choice, they clearly stated their side, so the U.S Marines obliged...... :flame:

Mmmm, Islamo-facist scumbags resistance fighters. Volker you are truely priceless at times. Especially when your resistance fighters are the antithesis of the kind of society that you live in Germany.....

 

[Volker]

What do you mean resistance?

I mean the people who fight against the coalition in Iraq.

Are these people fighting to set up a secular, pluralistic democracy that believes in the rights of women, like in Germany? Or were they just fighting the Americans because they are Americans?

They are fighting the Americans because they came to Iraq to kill people.

Volker you are truely priceless at times. Especially when your resistance fighters are the antithesis of the kind of society that you live in Germany.....

I am not surprised that you side with those who kill people in the Middle East, you are full of hatered towards them.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

I have hatred for religious fundementalists. Read my previous posts. I said that the Iraqis that are trying to build a better Iraq, by working with Coalition forces are the true resistance, because they are the people that have to face the threat of violence everyday. Aren't these people from the middle east? So yes I side with those that will kill and destroy the forces that oppose progress. Because I want to see the inbred, tribal insular nutjobs dead, because they are they ones killing the Iraqi civilians.... The people that do want to improve Iraq. It was your assumption of who I want killed, that was flawed.

Lastly volker, you still have no dealt with the fundemental moral dilema? Do you hate America so much that you want Iraq to now go down the tube? Do you really support the terrorists that would destroy any progress in Iraq? Do you really despise the very values and culture of the west that you would deny that chance for Iraqis? Your argument is morally bankrupt. You assume that anyone that opposes America must be your glorious resistance fighter regardless of their reasons for fighting..... Wrong...

So I'm asking you to answer this Volker. DON'T DODGE IT! Why would you side with terrorists that are not fighting Americans because they want to establish a secular democracy that respects individual rights, but rather the chance to kill the infidel soldier? These people are so tribal and deluded by their own religion, that they are fighting the Americans to establish a patriarchal society revolving around the Koran.

A) Why would you support these resistance fighters when they are only fighting to re-establish their parochial, partiarchal insular authoritarian rule?

B) Would you want Islamic sharia law, as the basis for all civil and criminal law in Germany?

Volker please answer these questions. Don't dodge them by using the old 'you are a hate filled person' line.

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Lastly where was your glorious resistance fighters of Fallujah when Saddam was in power? He killed Iraqi everyday.. Oh that's right the Sunni population of Fallujah had no problem with Saddam, because as long as the Dictator kept killing those heretic Shia, and killing those pesky Kurds, who cares?

Your resistance fighters do not believe in freedom but rather only in killing Americans because the are the Infidel. Where were your glorious resistance fighters to come to the aid of the Kurds. Where were the resistance fighters when the Shia were trampled by Saddam?

 

[Volker]

I have hatred for religious fundementalists. Read my previous posts.

I did, you expressed your contentment about coalition troops commiting mass murder in an Iraqi city, which is not known for religious fundamentalism.

I said that the Iraqis that are trying to build a better Iraq, by working with Coalition forces are the true resistance, because they are the people that have to face the threat of violence everyday. Aren't these people from the middle east?

Great, you like them if they are collaborators :roll:

So yes I side with those that will kill and destroy the forces that oppose progress. Because I want to see the inbred, tribal insular nutjobs dead, because they are they ones killing the Iraqi civilians.... The people that do want to improve Iraq. It was your assumption of who I want killed, that was flawed.

No, your choice of words gives away again, what you really think.

Lastly volker, you still have no dealt with the fundemental moral dilema? Do you hate America so much that you want Iraq to now go down the tube?

I don't hate America, we are speaking about the coalition troops in Iraq here.

Do you really support the terrorists that would destroy any progress in Iraq? Do you really despise the very values and culture of the west that you would deny that chance for Iraqis? Your argument is morally bankrupt. You assume that anyone that opposes America must be your glorious resistance fighter regardless of their reasons for fighting..... Wrong...

You assume, that I assume. You are not in a position to talk about morale here. I talk about the resistance fighters in Fallujah, not about terrorists.

So I'm asking you to answer this Volker. DON'T DODGE IT! Why would you side with terrorists that are not fighting Americans because they want to establish a secular democracy that respects individual rights, but rather the chance to kill the infidel soldier?

I don'
t side with terrorists, I hope the resistance will win to win.

These people are so tribal and deluded by their own religion, that they are fighting the Americans to establish a patriarchal society revolving around the Koran.

You sound deluded here.

A) Why would you support these resistance fighters when they are only fighting to re-establish their parochial, partiarchal insular authoritarian rule?

They want to get rid of their oppressors in the first place.

B) Would you want Islamic sharia law, as the basis for all civil and criminal law in Germany?

No, we have a constitution.

 

[Volker]

Lastly where was your glorious resistance fighters of Fallujah when Saddam was in power? He killed Iraqi everyday.. Oh that's right the Sunni population of Fallujah had no problem with Saddam, because as long as the Dictator kept killing those heretic Shia, and killing those pesky Kurds, who cares?

Obviously they did not feel the need to fight at this time and now they do. Iraq was rather secular and modern compared to other countries in the Middle East.

Your resistance fighters do not believe in freedom but rather only in killing Americans because the are the Infidel.

They kill them because of what they do, they do this to defend their country.

Where were your glorious resistance fighters to come to the aid of the Kurds. Where were the resistance fighters when the Shia were trampled by Saddam?

It makes no sense to come to the aid of these people, when they collaborate with Anglo-Americans.

 

[MSgt]

Obviously they did not feel the need to fight at this time and now they do. Iraq was rather secular and modern compared to other countries in the Middle East.

Do you have a clue of what you are talking about? The Sunni loved their tyrant. Clearly, you did too since you choose to side with his loyalists against the terrorized who did rise up continually against him.

The sentiments of Nazi Germany are thick here. The only difference is that today there aren't any Swastikas and back then the Jews didn't fight back.

Fallujah is a bastion of resistance and I am confident the people of Fallujah will be successful against the coalition sooner or later.

Fallujah "was" a bastion of resistance. The Marines went in to clear it. After the media spun their lies and exaggerations (for which weak Europeans clung to), we pulled out before finishing. The insurgents that were left alive created a terrorist base for which the residents were treated like Tali-Ban citizens. Fallujah II was a result of the Marines that killed faster than the media could keep up. What exists now is a routine violent temper tantrum of the losers. Eventually, Americans will pull out of Iraq and people like you will declare terrorists and murderers victorious. The same is true for anti-war voices in every war. They march and march and march and when the military inevitably pulls out, they declare themselves victorious. Losers are always this petty.

It makes no sense to come to the aid of these people, when they collaborate with Anglo-Americans.

The majority of Iraq are made up of Kurds and Shi'ites. They have shown in the past their dislike for their brutal leadership by holding uprisings. The pauper graves are full of their kind. Today, they are trying to make a democratic nation in the midst of Sunni hatred (which make up the minority).

You choose the Sunni as your friend.

Is the shame of your county's past so great that you feel the need to ally yourself with the butchers of the region as "freedom fighters" against the tyrant Americans in an attempt to try to excuse your history? Or perhaps you merely don't have a clue about the Sunni/Shi'ite history in the Middle East?

It's absolutely hysterical how Ahmenadejad reached out to Berlin with a letter declaring that you both have a common enemy (US). It's hysterical how Muslims and Germans both share a measure of racial hate towards Jews. And it is hysterical how you play right into this phenomena by choosing to suppport the Sunni (Saddam's loyalist) and the Palestinian terror (of which this article describes clearly right from Palestinian's mouths).

 

[Volker]

Do you even know what you are talking about? Fallujah "was" a bastion of resistance.

Be a little patient, not only Fallujah, but the al-Anbar province can become a bastion of resistance again.

The Marines went in to clear it. After the media spun their lies and exaggerations (for which weak Europeans clung to), we pulled out before finishing. The insurgents that were left alive created a terrorist base for which the residents were treated like Tali-Ban citizens. Fallujah II was a result of the Marines that killed faster than the media could keep up. What exists now is a routine violent temper tantrum of the losers. Eventually, Americans will pull out of Iraq and people like you will declare terrorists and murderers victorious. The same is true for anti-war voices in every war. They march and march and march and when the military inevitably pulls out, they declare themselves victorious.

This is because they are victorious.

The majority of Iraq are made up of Kurds and Shi'ites. They have shown in the past their dislike for their brutal leadership by holding uprisings. The pauper graves are full of their kind. Today, they are trying to make a democratic nation in the midst of Sunni hatred (which make up the minority).

I would not call it Sunni hatred, than they don't support uprisings of collaborators.

You choose the Sunni as your friend.

In Fallujah, there are a lot of Sunnis.

Is the shame of your county's past so great that you feel the need to ally yourself with the butchers of the region as "freedom fighters" against the tyrant Americans in an attempt to try to excuse your history?

I don't feel shame for my country's past. I don't try to excuse my history.

Or perhaps you merely don't have a clue about the Sunni/Shi'ite history in the Middle East?

I think, I know a little bit about this topic.

It's absolutely hysterical how Ahmenadejad reached out to Berlin with a letter declaring that you both have a common enemy (US).?

He called the US arrogant and power hungry in this letter :mrgreen:

It's hysterical how Muslims and Germans both share a measure of racial hate towards Jews.

No, I don't see much racial hate with Muslims and Germans.

And it is hysterical how you play right into this phenomena by choosing to suppport the Sunni (Saddam's loyalist) and the Palestinian terror (of which this article describes clearly right from Palestinian's mouths).

I understand, you want to go back to the topic, but you should not make up a support of Palestinian terror this way.

 

[MSgt]

Be a little patient, not only Fallujah, but the al-Anbar province can become a bastion of resistance again.

Um..you stated "is" a bastion. Now you state "can" be a bastion. You don't know what you are talking about, because you allow your hopes and dreams to cloud what is going on.

This is because they are victorious.

:roll: Why don't you march for the sunset. Eventually, you will be victorious.

I would not call it Sunni hatred, than they don't support uprisings of collaborators.

More proof that you do not know what you are talking about. Read up on the Sunni/Shi'ite history. The Sunni would be very pleased if the Coalition toppled Saddam and replaced him with Sunni leadership. Saddam's "soveriegnty" after the Gulf War was maintained because of pressure from the Sunni "House of Saud" and European defintiions of "stability." The Sunni's reaction, which is vastly against Shi'ite civilians, is a matter of traditional hatred. There's 14 centuries of it going all the way back to the succession.

In Fallujah, there are a lot of Sunnis.

Most of which did not want brutalized under the terrorist sponsership that controlled Fallujah aftre the first incursion.

I don't feel shame for my country's past. I don't try to excuse my history.

Then why the allegiance to all things against Israelis (Jews) and all things against America (Ahmenadejad's nuclear quest). You have aligned yourself with today's nazi sentiment movement.

I think, I know a little bit about this topic.

Then learn from it. So far, you contiunue to show the same type of ignorance that Britian showed by forcing these people to live together within unnatural borders, and Rumsfeld's coven over half a century later who thought "freedom and democracy" would be a magic wand upon the population.

He called the US arrogant and power hungry in this letter :mrgreen:

We are arrogant. As far as power hungry, we are the ultimate power so there's not hunger except fo to spread our influence further. Better our involvement than any other form of government we've seen in history, especially what the 20th century produced. At least our interests also comes with an element of human rights.

No, I don't see much racial hate with Muslims and Germans.

The racial rarely see their own racism. And the corrupt are never pleased with fairness. 14 centuries of racial hatred between Arabs and Persians. Religious persecution between Shi'ites and Sunni, which has largely been the Sunni - the Persian Empire was very generous towards others, to include Jews (Cyrus The Great). Witness the hatred between Sunni and Shi'ite in Iraq - between Shi'ite/Sunni and Hindu in India - between Msulims and Christians in Indonesia - between Muslim clans in Pakistan - between Sunni and Shi'ite and Christians in Sudan - between Palestinians and Israelis - between Palestinian militant groups in "Palestine." The 20th century showed us what genocide can look like from Germans against Jews. Today, the rise of anti-Semitism in Germany is trumped only by the disgusted looks upon Muslim Turks.

Still trying to maintain some sense of stubborness about the absence of racial hatred amongst Germans and Muslims towards the same things? They are kindred spirits.

I understand, you want to go back to the topic, but you should not make up a support of Palestinian terror this way.

Palestinians clearly described what has happened to their society despite the efforts of outsiders to paint them as hapless victims fighting for their rights. You support Palestinians and their behaviors and write it off as some sort of justification because of Israeli "attrocity," which is largely exaggerated and a reaction to terror.

Now that they are publicly destroying and murdering their own over greed, the outside supporters are running for the hills. You don't find it curious how verbally supportive the House of Saud is or how militarily supportive Iran is towards the Palestinian effort to spill Israeli blood, but they do nothing to encourage peace between Hamas and Fatah or that their financial aid towards them have never matched what is given to them by the west? It has become so obvious. The interest Arabs and Persians elsewhere have, have nothing to do with the poor Palestinian people. It has everything to do with killing Jews in Israel and the progressive free society they built that embarrasses Muslim regimes everywhere. It is clearly a support for terror at Palestinian cost and people outside the region (Germans and plenty of others) are no different.

 

[Vader]

I mean the people who fight against the coalition in Iraq.

They are fighting the Americans because they came to Iraq to kill people.

I am not surprised that you side with those who kill people in the Middle East, you are full of hatered towards them.

The American forces DID NOT come to Iraq to kill people. That is bullshit terrorist propaganda and you should be flogged for propagating it.

Furthermore, I think you should be very careful about making statments like "I am not surprised that you side with those who kill people in the Middle East, you are full of hatered towards them." becuase your terrorist muslim buddies are propabably the most hateful group of murderers on this planet. In fact, they have been responsible for more death and destruction in the last five years than any other group (except maybe for North Korea).

The very fact that you made such a statement provides proof that Islam IS being used as a brainwashing tool by the leaders of certain ISLAMIC countries. You shame yourself and your family by propagating this hateful terrorist propaganda.


:mrgreen:

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Obviously they did not feel the need to fight at this time and now they do. Iraq was rather secular and modern compared to other countries in the Middle East.

They kill them because of what they do, they do this to defend their country.

It makes no sense to come to the aid of these people, when they collaborate with Anglo-Americans.

Again you have failed to state what the resistance are aiming for. Lets use WWII as enxample. On your line of logic you would support the German troops, and any underground Waffen-SS units that would fight the Anglo-American and Soviet invasion of Germany, because to you these German troops were defending the fatherland. But this is fundementally flawed, because by trying to kill the imperialists, you are actually defending the system of Nazism. The real resistance, like I have said are the people that put their necks on the line to improve their country after an invasion. Especially if the invaders are attempting to bring democracy and the rule of law to a country.

So Volker please state the aims of the resistance, because if the resistance are interested at best, to getting rid of the Americans, then yet again you have underlined your hatred of America. A hatred the burns so much that you would see Iraq fail. Because deep down you want America to be humiliated so that they don't go on any more Imperialist invasions.

Secondly, to say that you don't hate America because the troops are coalition troops, is so intellectually dishonest, that the fellow posters will see right through it. What nationality do you think most troops in Iraq are, Swedish?

Thirdly, why does it make no sense to help people that collaborate with the 'Anglo-Americans'? What kind of statement is that? Can you explain yourself, or are you going to make a series of statements? Do believe that every Iraqi should kill American and British soldiers, car bomb and behead the collaborators, so that ultimately the Imperialists are defeated? Is that what you want? Because if you do, it demonstrates how morally bankrupt you are, because it suggests that you so desperately opposed the initial invasion of Iraq that you want the coalition to fail in the country just to prove your point?

Lastly if your glorious ressitance succeed in Iraq, do you suddenly see that they are going to cooperate with the Kurds, and the Shia? Can you honestly say that the glorious resistance have any interest in building a secular pluralistic democracy?

Be intellectually honest and answer my questions. None of my points were deluded because you failed to counter my points with real arguments that were backed up.

P.S Volker did you grow up in East Germany?

 

[Feela]

Well, this comes from the mouth of the Arabs, who define themselves as "Palestinians", themselves, so they must know what they are talking about:

And why do the Israelis deserve a state? Because they were strong enough and had enough support to steal someone else's land?

 

[Feela]

In fact, they have been responsible for more death and destruction in the last five years than any other group (except maybe for North Korea).

No that would your duce, Bush.

 

[Volker]

Um..you stated "is" a bastion. Now you state "can" be a bastion. You don't know what you are talking about, because you allow your hopes and dreams to cloud what is going on.

This depends on what you call a bastion.

The racial rarely see their own racism. And the corrupt are never pleased with fairness. 14 centuries of racial hatred between Arabs and Persians. Religious persecution between Shi'ites and Sunni, which has largely been the Sunni - the Persian Empire was very generous towards others, to include Jews (Cyrus The Great). Witness the hatred between Sunni and Shi'ite in Iraq - between Shi'ite/Sunni and Hindu in India - between Msulims and Christians in Indonesia - between Muslim clans in Pakistan - between Sunni and Shi'ite and Christians in Sudan - between Palestinians and Israelis - between Palestinian militant groups in "Palestine." The 20th century showed us what genocide can look like from Germans against Jews. Today, the rise of anti-Semitism in Germany is trumped only by the disgusted looks upon Muslim Turks.

What examples are this? These are mainly political, economical or religious conflicts.